Synergy

Harry

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Game day threads are dominated by finger pointing. Pick your poison, they’re blaming Keim, Kingsbury or Murray. In fact some posters blame all of them. There are legitimate concerns about all 3.

Perhaps the true solution isn’t that simple. Perhaps it’s a problem of synergy. My thought began with a simple question, can Murray be a playoff winning QB in the NFL? Honestly I’m not sure, but with every passing game I’m becoming certain of a couple of things. He can’t do it in this offense. He can’t do it with this roster. This is not meant to absolve Murray of failure. Clearly he’s failed, as have the other two. What I’m saying is more complex. The pieces of this puzzle don’t fit together to form a picture of success.

Let’s take Keim & Murray. Keim appears unable to build a sufficiently protective O-line. He’s tried with guys like Hudson, but he was a poor choice, as were Beachum & Garcia. At least it’s not his main priority. You may recall KC spent last summer retooling their O-line to make certain Mahomes had better protection. They actually sacrificed one of their major offensive weapons to make the cap work so they could achieve their goal. It’s been at least partially successful. On the other hand, when in Seattle, Wilson was at least somewhat successful with one of the worst O-lines in the league, so a great QB can win with a weak line. Keim did get Brown for Murray, but apparently wasted a draft pick on a second TE, who is not even really a target Murray considers. I would say Keim has failed to discern one of Murray’s primary needs to be successful. Clearly Murray could do better with this line, but his lack of pocket presence and toughness precludes that, so he needs a line. Keim could stay but would need a philosophical adjustment. I’d guess he needs to use Kugler more in his linemen evaluations. The Cards need to make the O-line a bigger priority in cap allocation.

Then there’s Keim & Kingsbury. Forget BPA. The TE selection is a perfect example of the problem. It made little sense as a second TE is clearly not a major impact aspect of this offensive scheme. Then there’s letting a speed back, Edmonds leave, and not replacing him. He was a big threat as part of this offense. There are also significant questions as to the line depth Keim accepted. He’s simply fails to fully understand the offense. That’s frightening. Again this seems like a communication problem to me. Is Kingsbury even involved in setting up the draft board? I can’t imagine him letting this choice be placed that highly with Ertz having signed a multi-year contract. Again coaches have to at least have a voice in personnel decisions

Then there’s Kingsbury & Murray. Oddly despite Murray being Kingsbury’s dream QB, they seem to be the most mismatched relationship. People keep talking about Murray being great at playground football. For my money Murray would be better off in a highly structured environment. He needs discipline. Kingsbury seems to prefer chaos. There seems to be no structured 2 minute drill plan. Likewise every trip to the red zone bears no resemblance to previous trips beyond the frequency of first down delayed handoffs. Confusion reigns. Most teams have “go to” plays. Sometimes Kingsbury seems so tied to his play chart that he appears to be making all the calls on the fly rather than having a cohesive plan to attack for specific distances. Shouldn’t he anticipate more? In a 2 minute drill shouldn’t everyone be on the same page? On third down why aren’t all receivers crossing the line-to-make on downs requiring less than 7 yards? Of course other teams will notice if you run the same play repeatedly. However, there should be a set of key plays, practiced so often no one could possibly be confused about their role. I have to wonder what practice looks like for these game segments. Slowly developing plays, like behind-the-line passes and deep handoff should be taken out of the playbook for 2 minute drills & the red zone. The emphasis should be on plays with little chance of negative results. Even incomplete passes are better when time’s short,than slowly developing plays. Those passes at least stop the clock and don’t move the ball further from the first down. Non-productive rookies, like McBride, don’t belong in either process. If Murray won’t throw to them, what’s the point?

If the first drive is scripted, why is Ertz never targeted? Why are back never kept in to buy Murray time? Williams is an excellent protector, but never used that way. Why are rollouts and 2 man games never used? I’d even take a flea flicker. The Cards rarely use stacked receivers or rubs to confuse the defense, why? All these things don’t require Murray to be able to read the defense. Kingsbury doesn’t seem to focus on Murray’s strengths. Rarely do patterns result in open receivers. Rarely are plays called that slow the rush. This offense is not varied or creative.

Then there’s the time issue. Plays come in slowly, likely caused by overthinking. TOs are frivolously wasted. In the past when they’ve had leads, they’ve struggled to run clock. They rarely take 3 points and don’t seem to understand the importance of having something to show for a long drive. Kingsbury needs to feed Murray’s ego more and give him a sense of accomplishment, not continuous failure. In the end it seems like Kingsbury does the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

I can see Keim improving with better direction and focus. Better communication is needed all around. I can see Murray improving with better structure and discipline. I’m less inclined to think Kingsbury can easily change, so that’s the part of the puzzle I’d discard. Time may prove more change than just Kingsbury is needed, but that’s where I’d start. Maybe it’s all about synergy.
 

MadCardDisease

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I couldn't agree more! Well said Harry.
Then there’s Kingsbury & Murray. Oddly despite Murray being Kingsbury’s dream QB, they seem to be the most mismatched relationship. People keep talking about Murray being great at playground football. For my money Murray would be better off in a highly structured environment. He needs discipline. Kingsbury seems to prefer chaos. There seems to be no structured 2 minute drill plan. Likewise every trip to the red zone bears no resemblance to previous trips beyond the frequency of first down delayed handoffs. Confusion reigns. Most teams have “go to” plays. Sometimes Kingsbury seems so tied to his play chart that he appears to be making all the calls on the fly rather than having a cohesive plan to attack for specific distances. Shouldn’t he anticipate more? In a 2 minute drill shouldn’t everyone be on the same page? On third down why aren’t all receivers crossing the line-to-make on downs requiring less than 7 yards? Of course other teams will notice if you run the same play repeatedly. However, there should be a set of key plays, practiced so often no one could possibly be confused about their role. I have to wonder what practice looks like for these game segments. Slowly developing plays, like behind-the-line passes and deep handoff should be taken out of the playbook for 2 minute drills & the red zone. The emphasis should be on plays with little chance of negative results. Even incomplete passes are better when time’s short,than slowly developing plays. Those passes at least stop the clock and don’t move the ball further from the first down. Non-productive rookies, like McBride, don’t belong in either process. If Murray won’t throw to them, what’s the point?

If the first drive is scripted, why is Ertz never targeted? Why are back never kept in to buy Murray time? Williams is an excellent protector, but never used that way. Why are rollouts and 2 man games never used? I’d even take a flea flicker. The Cards rarely use stacked receivers or rubs to confuse the defense, why? All these things don’t require Murray to be able to read the defense. Kingsbury doesn’t seem to focus on Murray’s strengths. Rarely do patterns result in open receivers. Rarely are plays called that slow the rush. This offense is not varied or creative.

Then there’s the time issue. Plays come in slowly, likely caused by overthinking. TOs are frivolously wasted. In the past when they’ve had leads, they’ve struggled to run clock. They rarely take 3 points and don’t seem to understand the importance of having something to show for a long drive. Kingsbury needs to feed Murray’s ego more and give him a sense of accomplishment, not continuous failure. In the end it seems like Kingsbury does the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
 

slanidrac16

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There are things that, if I can see, then every defense we play can see it.
1. When Kyler is under center it is ALWAYS a run.
2. Too often we have 4 receivers running straight hook routes.
3. The only time Kyler rolls out is because he is forced out of the pocket.
4. On EVERY pass play there should be one receiver running a shallow crossing route as a guaranteed outlet.
5. Why is Green ever on the field? He gets ZERO separation. The only time he should see the field is when we are up or down by 20 points.

I would love to see the average yards gained on any pass play of 1 yard or less. It’s got to be damn near negative. Those plays might work when you have a defense on their heels or at least worn down a little. This is the NFL, not TCU.

It’s at a point now I no longer get upset or excited.
 

daves

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Excellent post, @Harry - really ties together all of the different theories on why the Cardinals have been struggling for 1.5 seasons into one coherent and plausible whole. I would only quibble with one sentence:
Rarely do patterns result in open receivers.
@BritCard and others who have broken down the all-22 footage have shown plenty of open receivers... but apparently Murray is either physically not seeing them, not reading the defense properly, not progressing through his reads, or not confident enough in the pocket to hit them. And again, this could be a "synergy" issue.

The part I'm still confused about is that for stretches in 2020, and 12 games in 2021, everything was working so well. :shrug:

The article that @Goodyear Card posted in another thread details Murray's huge dropoff in performance on long passes. I suspect that if he were still throwing the ball as well as he did in the first half of last year, these "synergy" issues would be a lot less apparent, and we'd all be a lot happier with the Keim - Kingsbury - Murray trio right now.

...dave
 
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DaHilg

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If the first drive is scripted, why is Ertz never targeted? Why are back never kept in to buy Murray time? Williams is an excellent protector, but never used that way. Why are rollouts and 2 man games never used? I’d even take a flea flicker. The Cards rarely use stacked receivers or rubs to confuse the defense, why? All these things don’t require Murray to be able to read the defense. Kingsbury doesn’t seem to focus on Murray’s strengths. Rarely do patterns result in open receivers. Rarely are plays called that slow the rush. This offense is not varied or creative.
Extremely well said Harry.. particular this portion. Kliffy just doesn’t seem to have a grasp of an NFL offense at all…and knowing that he refuses to adjust to realizing air raid doesn’t work. This isn’t Jerry T and the running rebels, you aren’t going to out pace NFL defenders to exhaustion running the same routes. It’s so predictable I think it actually does the opposite where they can apply more pressure knowing what’s coming and press coverage (a big reason why these behind the LOS passes do NOT work). If you incorporated what you stated then did some of this behind the LOS BS, it’d actually probably work. 4 years in, longer than the average players lifespan in the NFL I don’t see this changing. You don’t hire coaches, hoping they will develop and be good in 5 years. That’s not the name of the game.
 

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Great post Harry. People complain about Murray not stepping up in the pocket which is legit, however, there were times Sunday when the protection broke down I felt like Murray could've taken off & ran for some yardage. Instead he took the sacks. What kills me about KK is he is too stubborn to change & when he does it's only for one game then he goes back to the same old crap, after the motion & moving WR's around the week prior. Omg, the clock management, he's clueless. We need a coach with structure that will play to the strengths of Murray, roll him out, use play action & put him under center. The coach we need (Sean Payton) will not come here imo because of our owner & GM, he's too smart for that. He has experience with a shorter QB, Drew Brees was maybe 2" taller. I truly believe he also knows how tied our FO & owner is to Murray & he wants no part of being stuck with a QB he can't change. Maybe he can but who knows? Last week it was either Schlereth or Starks that told a story on 98.7 about Doug Flutie. Doug told whichever one a story about problems he faced while stepping up in the pocket. Said when he stepped up too far he could no longer see the middle of the field basically. That explains a whole lot as to why Murray struggles with that, being in shotgun he can see things a little better. Let's face it, as long as KK is our coach, we're gonna mainly be in shotgun because he will never run a pro style offense based on being under center with play action.
 

DaHilg

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Great post Harry. People complain about Murray not stepping up in the pocket which is legit, however, there were times Sunday when the protection broke down I felt like Murray could've taken off & ran for some yardage. Instead he took the sacks. What kills me about KK is he is too stubborn to change & when he does it's only for one game then he goes back to the same old crap, after the motion & moving WR's around the week prior. Omg, the clock management, he's clueless. We need a coach with structure that will play to the strengths of Murray, roll him out, use play action & put him under center. The coach we need (Sean Payton) will not come here imo because of our owner & GM, he's too smart for that. He has experience with a shorter QB, Drew Brees was maybe 2" taller. I truly believe he also knows how tied our FO & owner is to Murray & he wants no part of being stuck with a QB he can't change. Maybe he can but who knows? Last week it was either Schlereth or Starks that told a story on 98.7 about Doug Flutie. Doug told whichever one a story about problems he faced while stepping up in the pocket. Said when he stepped up too far he could no longer see the middle of the field basically. That explains a whole lot as to why Murray struggles with that, being in shotgun he can see things a little better. Let's face it, as long as KK is our coach, we're gonna mainly be in shotgun because he will never run a pro style offense based on being under center with play action.
But you adjust to that… RW3 is not much more than an inch or so taller than Kyler. He’s not a QB that I would say steps in the pocket. Play to your players strengths not your system strengths - been the problem w coaching and developement on both sides of the ball.

I for one, have zero desire for our minuscule $240mm QB to step up in the consistently collapsing pocket and get 300lbs of man on top of him. He’s not built for that, never was.. reason why we should have gone all in on investing in the interior line and using schemes that take advantage of a QB with 4.3 speed and a rocket arm on the run. Just baffles me it’s such a simple concept that hasn’t been invested in OR utilized in games.
 

sdscard4

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I'm a much simpler dude...o line is the key. Kyler would be just fine WITH an average line. Imagine a good o line
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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But you adjust to that… RW3 is not much more than an inch or so taller than Kyler. He’s not a QB that I would say steps in the pocket. Play to your players strengths not your system strengths - been the problem w coaching and developement on both sides of the ball.

I for one, have zero desire for our minuscule $240mm QB to step up in the consistently collapsing pocket and get 300lbs of man on top of him. He’s not built for that, never was.. reason why we should have gone all in on investing in the interior line and using schemes that take advantage of a QB with 4.3 speed and a rocket arm on the run. Just baffles me it’s such a simple concept that hasn’t been invested in OR utilized in games.
Well never you worry because we have Keim & he knows how to build an OL lol.
 

Jetstream Green

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I'm a much simpler dude...o line is the key. Kyler would be just fine WITH an average line. Imagine a good o line
You want to fix the offense, fix the OL. When Kyler really has time, I am not talking about buying time, he pretty much can carve out a defense. When there are holes, we have more than capable backs to exploit that and then the passing game is effortless. The OL works as one, and we have problems at the very keystone which is center. I like Cody Ford a lot but no young guy as a rookie can be expected to compensate for crappy play at center and then know what the hell they are doing
 

GoldGloveschmidt

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You want to fix the offense, fix the OL. When Kyler really has time, I am not talking about buying time, he pretty much can carve out a defense. When there are holes, we have more than capable backs to exploit that and then the passing game is effortless. The OL works as one, and we have problems at the very keystone which is center. I like Cody Ford a lot but no young guy as a rookie can be expected to compensate for crappy play at center and then know what the hell they are doing
Cody Ford is a 4th year player who was not good enough to play in Buffalo despite being a 2nd round pick.
 

Jetstream Green

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Cody Ford is a 4th year player who was not good enough to play in Buffalo despite being a 2nd round pick.
My bad, I just keep thinking of him as a rookie, but still the center position is something which if not secure is hard to compensate for and still have adequate protection across the line of scrimmage
 

BritCard

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I just can't take the O line blame.

"Kyler got sacked! This O line sucks!".

Every QB gets sacked. Every QB gets multiple pressures. Defenses have evolved to focus on pressuring the QB as the game has gone pass heavy.

Kyler is 23rd in the league for pressure at 19.5%. Our O line has the 12th lowest pressure rate in the league. And right in line with that is Kyler's sack rate which is 11th best in the league on a per drop back basis at 5.85%.

For comparison Mahomes is 4.56% and Josh Allen is 4.17%.

And all of this is with the Chiefs game being the most pressured of Kyler's career. For the last 7 games Kyler has been a bottom 5 pressured QB in the league.

Kirk Cousins that just beat us and who is 6-1 has a 25.4% pressure rate. Jalen Hurts is 7-0 with a 20.1% pressure rate. Geno Smith is 23.1%. Mahomes 23.4%.

Keep blaming the O line just seems like cheap and easy way to try to absolve Kyler of blame when in fact the stats say he has above league average protection.

In fact Kyler is having his worst ever season with his best ever O line.
 

BritCard

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Why was there enough synergy last year to have an 11-6 record but no synergy this year with the same people?

Kyler is playing worse than his rookie season. Maybe there is no complicated reason and it's just that.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Why was there enough synergy last year to have an 11-6 record but no synergy this year with the same people?
That 11-6 may as well have been 100 years ago. You need to focus on the 4-10 in their last 14, which is the team we are at this point.
 
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daves

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That 11-6 may as well have been 100 years ago.
You're missing the point - the "synergy" should've been the same then, so something else must be to blame for the slide.
You need to focus on the 4-11 in their last 15, which is the team we are at this point.
5-10 including the playoff game, 6-9 in the regular season. I don't understand how people keep getting this wrong.

And yes, that is a bad stretch either way... Which only serves to contrast it more with the 7-0, 10-2 stretch that preceded / overlapped it. Keim, Kingsbury, and Murray were responsible for both, so how can the bad stretch be blamed on "synergy" when the same the guys were responsible for the amazingly good stretch?

...dave
 

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You're missing the point - the "synergy" should've been the same then, so something else must be to blame for the slide.
Why? It's a completely different roster. Our early success last year was due to a successful running game preventing other teams from knowing what was coming. The driving force behind that was the dual threat of Connor/Edmonds, and lots of Maxx. Have you noticed we don't have any of those threats anymore?
5-10 including the playoff game, 6-9 in the regular season. I don't understand how people keep getting this wrong.
If you're going to correct someone, it's typically best to come with accurate data!

Dec 13 Rams - L
Dec 19 Lions - L
Dec 25 Colts - L
Jan 2 Cowboys - W
Jan 9 Seahawks - L
Jan 17 Rams - L

That's 1-5 to end the year (including the playoff loss), so 4-10 in our last 14 games.

If you want to quibble over 5-10 vs. 4-11, I think you're missing the point. Whether it's solid or diarrhea, I don't want either crap.
when the same the guys were responsible for the amazingly good stretch?
Again, you're failing to recognize this is a completely different team than the team that started 7-0.
 

Shane

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I just can't take the O line blame.

"Kyler got sacked! This O line sucks!".

Every QB gets sacked. Every QB gets multiple pressures. Defenses have evolved to focus on pressuring the QB as the game has gone pass heavy.

Kyler is 23rd in the league for pressure at 19.5%. Our O line has the 12th lowest pressure rate in the league. And right in line with that is Kyler's sack rate which is 11th best in the league on a per drop back basis at 5.85%.

For comparison Mahomes is 4.56% and Josh Allen is 4.17%.

And all of this is with the Chiefs game being the most pressured of Kyler's career. For the last 7 games Kyler has been a bottom 5 pressured QB in the league.

Kirk Cousins that just beat us and who is 6-1 has a 25.4% pressure rate. Jalen Hurts is 7-0 with a 20.1% pressure rate. Geno Smith is 23.1%. Mahomes 23.4%.

Keep blaming the O line just seems like cheap and easy way to try to absolve Kyler of blame when in fact the stats say he has above league average protection.

In fact Kyler is having his worst ever season with his best ever O line.

This X 100

It’s just a convienent excuse for all the Kyler can do no wrong crowd.

Yet even under pressure Kyler has the worst passer rating in the league.

Worse then every single other QB including the many no names QBing right now due to injuries etc…. DEAD LAST. we payed a guy one of the richest deals in NFL history who wilts under pressure. Where many STAR QBs thrive under it.
 

DVontel

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This X 100

It’s just a convienent excuse for all the Kyler can do no wrong crowd.

Yet even under pressure Kyler has the worst passer rating in the league.

Worse then every single other QB including the many no names QBing right now due to injuries etc…. DEAD LAST. we payed a guy one of the richest deals in NFL history who wilts under pressure. Where many STAR QBs thrive under it.
You can admit that Kyler is playing poorly while acknowledging busts like Billy Price & Cody Ford aren’t a recipe for success.

I don’t care what stats without context tell me, outside of DJ Humphries, no one on this OLine is trustworthy.

You can believe it’s a convenient excuse for the Kyler advocates, that’s your provocative.

However, to act like this currently constructed OLine is anything but bad? You’re basically excusing Keim for fielding such a unit & insulting your own intelligence.
 

DVontel

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Also, can you guys stop acting like the sheer athleticism of Kyler does not make OL, especially the OTs, doesn’t make their jobs easier because the DL is so set on playing contain? The same goes for Lamar Jackson & Justin Fields. The fact that Beachum, for example, is playing as bad as he is….is super damn scary.
 

Shane

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You can admit that Kyler is playing poorly while acknowledging busts like Billy Price & Cody Ford aren’t a recipe for success.

I don’t care what stats without context tell me, outside of DJ Humphries, no one on this OLine is trustworthy.

You can believe it’s a convenient excuse for the Kyler advocates, that’s your provocative.

However, to act like this currently constructed OLine is anything but bad? You’re basically excusing Keim for fielding such a unit & insulting your own intelligence.

I’m not excusing Keim for anything…. His OL sucks. But as has been shown Kylers pressure % is middle of the pack. The mere fact that he is literally dead last in the NFL with a passer rating of 13.7 compared to every single other QB in the league is awful. Beyond awful. I can list a several other NFL QBs that are low payed no names who are performing better when under pressure then Kyler. It’s sad. Of course our OL has issues and Keim sucks. But still doesn’t Obsolve Kyler. He just by his draft status hype and salary should be a able to outperform many of the other QBs in the league when under pressure.
 

BritCard

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I’m not excusing Keim for anything…. His OL sucks. But as has been shown Kylers pressure % is middle of the pack. The mere fact that he is literally dead last in the NFL with a passer rating of 13.7 compared to every single other QB in the league is awful. Beyond awful. I can list a several other NFL QBs that are low payed no names who are performing better when under pressure then Kyler. It’s sad. Of course our OL has issues and Keim sucks. But still doesn’t Obsolve Kyler. He just by his draft status hype and salary should be a able to outperform many of the other QBs in the league when under pressure.

There are 5 or 6 throws in this one game by PJ Walker better than anything Kyler has done all year outside the 2 point conversion to AJ Green.

PJ WALKER!

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 

DVontel

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But as has been shown Kylers pressure % is middle of the pack.
I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying this, not when you factor how DL has to play Kyler because of his athleticism.

passer rating of 13.7 compared to every
I can maybe buy this. Buying the part about it being awful this year. That low, though? I don't know.



I don't and haven't absolved Kyler of his poor play this year. I just could never tell if you were a Keim advocate or not like a Brit or Krang because I never see you bash Keim like you do Kyler or even Kliff.
 

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