Suns Off-season Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

When you can directly control what others earn that’s different. That’s a boss/employee dynamic. He’s an employee

The question is would you hold it against anyone on your team leaving for more money elsewhere

True, that’s a differentiator. No, I wouldn’t hold it against them. It would be a short-sighted move on their part, but I couldn’t begrudge them the decision.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This, DA already got the max from his selection as #1 overall and has gotten destroyed by the #3 & #4 since. He is not entitled to max $ just because. The Suns were correct in their assessment that he is not a max player..... no one has offered him the max. Denver has already learned the hard way of giving the max to Porter Jr what a waste of $

Unfortunately I’m todays NBA sometimes you are. There are often enough teams foolish enough to spend a max on a non-max player that the more prudent teams are somewhat forced to play by their rules or step back. For instance, we could demand less than max with Ayton, but if one team hands him that offer sheet our choice is match (thus he gets max $ “just because”) or just lose an enormous piece of our talent for nothing. It’s a lose-lose scenario (with upside on the matching side in the event Ayton continues to progress and eventually becomes a max player).

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

True, that’s a differentiator. No, I wouldn’t hold it against them. It would be a short-sighted move on their part, but I couldn’t begrudge them the decision.

It would be short sighted if they are only leaving for more money. Not necessarily short sighted if more money is only one of the reasons for moving on.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It would be short sighted if they are only leaving for more money. Not necessarily short sighted if more money is only one of the reasons for moving on.

Lol of course. But unlike you I know our industry, I know our competitors and I know what they’ve got with us and what their future can hold with us verses our competitors. In 90% of the cases it would be short sighted. In the 10% where it may not be it’s likely only because (a) factors at competitors unexpectedly change; (b) they weren’t the employees who were ultimately going to succeed with us due to a number of factors; or (c) some unforeseeable circumstance arising.

 

[Proximo]

Ayton + Bridges is to much for KD. This isn’t prime KD anymore

Agreed. I would maybe do Ayton and Cam - if no draft picks are involved, but that is about as far as I would go.

 

[Finito]

When you enter a negotiation with I will except nothing but the max? That speaks for itself. Even as a top employee try going to your boss and say pay me the max my job grade allows. See how far you get. I have been a boss for decades. If an employee did that the discussion is over.

If your employees contract is up and wants to be paid market value I see nothing wrong with that.

This is what fans don’t understand. The Market sets contracts. They think only stars get that Rookie Max.

Yes Luka did get a max but so did D’Angello Russell. Well he may not be more valuable than Luka but is he more valuable than DLO?

If your an agent all you have to do is point that out. I hear Luka over and over but what I don’t hear is Andrew Wiggins, he also got a rookie max.

He’s not asking for Luka money he’s just asking for MPJ money. See how that works

The market sets the money. The rookie max isn’t only based on production it’s also based on projection. If your his agent you look and say my guys clearly gotten better every year and is only 23 years old.

 

[Mainstreet]

If your employees contract is up and wants to be paid market value I see nothing wrong with that.

This is what fans don’t understand. The Market sets contracts. They think only stars get that Rookie Max.

Yes Luka did get a max but so did D’Angello Russell. Well he may not be more valuable than Luka but is he more valuable than DLO?

If your an agent all you have to do is point that out. I hear Luka over and over but what I don’t hear is Andrew Wiggins, he also got a rookie max.

He’s not asking for Luka money he’s just asking for MPJ money. See how that works

The market sets the money. The rookie max isn’t only based on production it’s also based on projection. If your his agent you look and say my guys clearly gotten better every year and is only 23 years old.

And we are going to see the market at work starting around July 1st.

I hope the Suns take the high road and offer Ayton more than another team's offer sheet.

 

[Finito]

And we are going to see the market at work starting around July 1st.

I hope the Suns take the high road and offer Ayton more than another team's offer sheet.

Right. Some years the money is there and some it’s not.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right. Some years the money is there and some it’s not.

And I think Ayton has earned the salary. It's not like the Suns are giving him something he doesn't deserve.

 

[how_sweet_it_is]

Unless there is a 3 way trade out there to be had? Sounds like the 1 to 1 trade scenarios are drying up. Also, I wouldn't put it past the Suns to tell perspective teams calling.....don't bother with a direct offer to Ayton...we will match it. It's not an easy thing to call the Suns bluff either because you have to be willing to pay whatever you put on the table to call their bluff.

I'm honest enough both with myself and with others to acknowledge why I bet that Ayton stays. It's because I would prefer that he stay, in hopes of somehow working out his own immaturity issue. Why? Because I also recognize a brutal truth: Ayton's potential--not Ayton as he is now--is the only thing at all the Suns have that other contenders don't have! Booker? Sorry, lots of other teams have scoring wizards. They're not a-dime-a-dozen, but they come every now and then. Good defense? Other contenders play good defense. One of the best centers in the league who might become better later? That's it...the Suns have nothing else going for them that can't be countered. If they had met the Warriors in the playoffs, the Warriors could have brushed back every element of the Suns' game--except Ayton. Stephen Curry can score as much as Devin Booker; the Warriors can defend as well as the Suns or better (as shown by their out-defending the Celtics).

I would rather that the Suns effectively give Ayton Chris Paul's salary a year or two early, and accept the tax burden. Even if it means they wouldn't have much money to offer a replacement point guard after Paul retires. There's no choice, unless you think the Suns can lose Ayton and still contend. I don't. Ayton may be immature and may want more money than he deserves, but he's still certainly the best center the Suns have ever had.

 

[how_sweet_it_is]

I have a question about the era of Suns-history that I know little about (2017-2020). Before Chris Paul was acquired, did anyone (among fans) clamor to acquire him, or did the deal come out of the blue? If no one expected or wanted to get Paul, I guess that old superstar lust that I have disdained wasn't a factor.

I don't suppose Suns fans probably had any idea Charles Barkley would be acquired, either.

 

[Hoop Head]

I have a question about the era of Suns-history that I know little about (2017-2020). Before Chris Paul was acquired, did anyone (among fans) clamor to acquire him, or did the deal come out of the blue? If no one expected or wanted to get Paul, I guess that old superstar lust that I have disdained wasn't a factor.

I don't suppose Suns fans probably had any idea Charles Barkley would be acquired, either.

We wanted an NBA caliber PG, that's it. We got one in Rubio just before the CP3 trade and that felt like a godsend but also too little too late, in a way. It was clear how much better everyone was with a real PG on the floor with them. Had Ayton not gotten suspended that year then it's likely they make the playoffs and work their way up. Continuing to improve while searching to upgrade other positions, primarily the bench, PF, and also PG because Rubio wasn't the answer to make us a contender.

CP3 wasn't discussed as a trade option during that time because he wanted to play for a contender, not a team on the rise like Phoenix. It wasn't until he forced his way out of LA and then was shipped out of Houston to OKC that it felt like the Suns might be an option and the general consensus then was that he was done. He proved everyone wrong and worked his ass off to improve his conditioning in OKC and led them to the playoffs when they were predicted to be awful.

No one thought he'd be in OKC long but he made his desires known that he wanted to come here and also the Suns made it known they wanted him so the framework of a trade was built quickly. There were a lot of Suns fans who didn't like the trade though, thinking he was done and wouldn't help much. Of course the finals trip made them eat some crow in that regard.

It terms of star lust, most Suns fans seemed to be set on trying to get Damian Lillard, somehow. That didn't really stop but a lot of focus went to Ja Morant even before he was drafted and everyone was on that train when he proved he had star potential in his rookie season.

 

[GatorAZ]

Dude doing tv hits now…
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[Cheesebeef]

Dude doing tv hits now…
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I’ve got to give this guy some credit… he’s a master self-promoter and getting on air is an impressive feat for someone who in essence throws a ton of spaghetti against the wall and living high on the hog on whatever sticks.

 

[Mainstreet]

Dude doing tv hits now…
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Cool new avatar.

Flex was on TV once before. I think it was Fox 10.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If your employees contract is up and wants to be paid market value I see nothing wrong with that.

This is what fans don’t understand. The Market sets contracts. They think only stars get that Rookie Max.

Yes Luka did get a max but so did D’Angello Russell. Well he may not be more valuable than Luka but is he more valuable than DLO?

If your an agent all you have to do is point that out. I hear Luka over and over but what I don’t hear is Andrew Wiggins, he also got a rookie max.

He’s not asking for Luka money he’s just asking for MPJ money. See how that works

The market sets the money. The rookie max isn’t only based on production it’s also based on projection. If your his agent you look and say my guys clearly gotten better every year and is only 23 years old.

But here’s the flip side: if you have Russell that contract are you happy you did?

 

[how_sweet_it_is]

Do you remember how, in the aftermath of the 1993 finals loss, most people seemed to consider the future bright? The Suns had lost, but were expected to return to the finals eventually.

With the Ayton situation unlikely to end well and Chris Paul extremely old by NBA standards, I don't see that kind of bright future for this group. It's uncertain at best and grim at worst.

 

[Finito]

But here’s the flip side: if you have Russell that contract are you happy you did?

It doesn’t matter. If your his agent all you have to do it point to all the guys that have gotten that max.

Like it said that rookie max is every bit about projection as it is production.

It’s the cost of doing business right or wrong.

 

[Bobster]

Do you remember how, in the aftermath of the 1993 finals loss, most people seemed to consider the future bright? The Suns had lost, but were expected to return to the finals eventually.

With the Ayton situation unlikely to end well and Chris Paul extremely old by NBA standards, I don't see that kind of bright future for this group. It's uncertain at best and grim at worst.

That team had two ticking timebombs in Oliver Miller and Richard Dumas, plus Charles Barkley would never be in the kind of shape he was in 1992-93. Then Chambers, Frank Johnson and Ainge aged out, and that was half the team. That left Barkley, KJ. Majerle, Ceballos and West to build around and they tried to do it with either guys who got hurt (Manning) or were one-dimensional (Green, Tisdale, Person).

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do you remember how, in the aftermath of the 1993 finals loss, most people seemed to consider the future bright? The Suns had lost, but were expected to return to the finals eventually.

With the Ayton situation unlikely to end well and Chris Paul extremely old by NBA standards, I don't see that kind of bright future for this group. It's uncertain at best and grim at worst.

I've always thought that DA re-signing with us is the most likely outcome. And Bridges, Booker, CamJ and Ayton are all 25 or under so I don't think doom and gloom is necessarily on our horizon. Whether it's actually a bright future though will probably depend on what we do with the cap space we'll have available as CP nears his end.

 

[Finito]

I've always thought that DA re-signing with us is the most likely outcome. And Bridges, Booker, CamJ and Ayton are all 25 or under so I don't think doom and gloom is necessarily on our horizon. Whether it's actually a bright future though will probably depend on what we do with the cap space we'll have available as CP nears his end.

If this is played right we can really set this franchise up nice. Ayton Bridges, Cam Johnson are all young plus we have all our picks that combo could get us a big star.

Or we could totally screw it up and get crap for Ayton and not pay Johnson

 

[JCSunsfan]

Just my opinion. I think pursuing Durant is a mistake. We would have to give up too much. He is aging.

Of course, I said the same thing about CP3, so there is that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If this is played right we can really set this franchise up nice. Ayton Bridges, Cam Johnson are all young plus we have all our picks that combo could get us a big star.

Or we could totally screw it up and get crap for Ayton and not pay Johnson

Yeah, history says that with a solid owner like Sarver we can count on coming out of this smelling like roses (that have just been fertilized).

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just my opinion. I think pursuing Durant is a mistake. We would have to give up too much. He is aging.

Of course, I said the same thing about CP3, so there is that.

He's aging and he's missed a bunch of games the past 8 seasons and while he's recovered well from his achilles repair, that injury doesn't bode well for an older basketball player. But I'd be very surprised if we've pursued Durant to any extent.

 

[how_sweet_it_is]

I've always thought that DA re-signing with us is the most likely outcome.

Then do you believe both sides are lying when they claim essentially that they don't want each other? Because the Suns claim Ayton isn't worth a max, while Ayton claims to want to leave. Just posturing for the negotiations? I suppose that's entirely possible. ...I hope so, because the Suns have dim prospects without Ayton.