Suns @ Bucks Wednesday Finals game thread 7-14-2021 - Game 4

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of course, but I'm just saying if Paul did, even with Bridges and Ayton doing what they did, we would have won. Paul affects the game THAT much.

That said, I'm not too concerned with Ayton. I'm VERY concerned with Bridges though.

Agreed. I’m most concerned with Paul’s health. Secondarily I’m concerned with Bridges shrinking. Crowder and cam Johnson have played well enough the last two games. We will need them to maintain that - particularly cam Johnson who has upped his game. Hope to see further improvement from Payne. This past game was step in right direction. Craig has largely been invisible. No timely 3s, offensive rebounds or big defensive plays. And obviously I’m concerned that this might all be too big for Ayton at present. He’s trying to rise to the challenge of giannis, but I’m seeing a lot of deer in the headlights from him on the offensive end of the floor that we’ve not seen from him much in the playoffs. Good defensive effort last night on giannis, but disappeared down the stretch.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ugh... I made no such strawman. My reference to Giannis was simply to point out that Giannis at 22 was not the Giannis we see today, period. Meaning, my expectation is that the Ayton we see at 22 will not be the Ayton we see 4 years from now. Period.

Regardless, I never made the comp. you brought it into play.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ayton is not Hakeem and never will be. People need to lower their expectations even though he’s made great strides. He’s still the super role player type big man that you shouldn’t force feed. If you told me he’d defend at the caliber he did while staying out of foul trouble last night I’d take it as a huge win despite the other stuff.

 

[Covert Rain]

Who said anything about 20pts? How about near his season average with his typical efficiency. Should we not have that expectation of him? That would’ve won us the game last night.

That is reasonable depending on what is happening with the schemes Monty is putting out there. I mean, there are some games where Monty clearly has told him focus on defense or rebounding and didn't run any plays to Ayton for entire quarters. We have all asked multiple times these playoffs why Monty appears to not have tried. I would also argue that if Ayton was scoring more maybe that means someone is scoring less. I don't think it's that simple.

Preventing the turnovers, points off of fast breaks for the Bucks would have won us the game IMO. CP3 being even somewhat competent wins us that game. Those things are much more likely to happen than depending on Ayton to score.

Also, I will have to find the stats but if most of his shots are coming from assists? That is not the same thing as asking him to be a primary option, throwing the ball down into him and letting him go to work. He is not that guy.

 

[95pro]

Agreed. I’m most concerned with Paul’s health. Secondarily I’m concerned with Bridges shrinking. Crowder and cam Johnson have played well enough the last two games. We will need them to maintain that - particularly cam Johnson who has upped his game. Hope to see further improvement from Payne. This past game was step in right direction. Craig has largely been invisible. No timely 3s, offensive rebounds or big defensive plays. And obviously I’m concerned that this might all be too big for Ayton at present. He’s trying to rise to the challenge of giannis, but I’m seeing a lot of deer in the headlights from him on the offensive end of the floor that we’ve not seen from him much in the playoffs. Good defensive effort last night on giannis, but disappeared down the stretch.

We just are not using him enough. He did have some big rebounds. I really hope we stick him in to defend Giannis in game 5. We snuck him in towards the ends of the clippers series and was a difference make on the defensive end.

Bridges, smh. I think it's too physical for him since he's so thin, he was getting screened like he was nothing. While he was on Middleton, they went to work screen Bridges and he was always trailing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton is not Hakeem and never will be. People need to lower their expectations even though he’s made great strides. He’s still the super role player type big man that you shouldn’t force feed. If you told me he’d defend at the caliber he did while staying out of foul trouble last night I’d take it as a huge win despite the other stuff.

Lol. More hyperbole. No one is calling for Hakeem. How about hitting regular season average? Is that reasonable?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That is reasonable depending on what is happening with the schemes Monty is putting out there. I mean, there are some games where Monty clearly has told him focus on defense or rebounding and didn't run any plays to Ayton for entire quarters. We have all asked multiple times these playoffs why Monty appears to not have tried. I would also argue that if Ayton was scoring more maybe that means someone is scoring less. I don't think it's that simple.

Preventing the turnovers, points off of fast breaks for the Bucks would have won us the game IMO. CP3 being even somewhat competent wins us that game. Those things are much more likely to happen than depending on Ayton to score.

Also, I will have to find the stats but if most of his shots are coming from assists? That is not the same thing as asking him to be a primary option, throwing the ball down into him and letting him go to work. He is not that guy.

He shot 3-9 last night. Asking him to hit 3-4 more shots (a) is in line with his shooting for most of the playoffs (acknowledging its historic) and (b) wouldn’t take scoring opportunities from anyone else and (c) would’ve resulted in a win.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Everything else being the same, if Chris Paul just played average, we would have won that game.

My thoughts exactly. If Paul has an average game, the Suns win by 10.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect maybe your best player NOT to be awful in a big game. Ayton has had many disappearing acts and Bridges is usually kind of streaky.

 

[Covert Rain]

He shot 3-9 last night. Asking him to hit 3-4 more shots (a) is in line with his shooting for most of the playoffs (acknowledging its historic) and (b) wouldn’t take scoring opportunities from anyone else and (c) would’ve resulted in a win.

The turnovers and easy buckets given up were way more impactful IMO to the final outcome of the game. Change either of those and you don't even need him to take those shots in the first place. I don't think the Suns have ever gone into a game saying...we need to depend on Ayton's offense to win. Monty didn't say anything post game about missed shots being the reason they lost. I could make a list of shot missed by others and say the same thing. Bottom line Ayton making more shots, CP3 showing up, Bridges showing up, a few more made shots by the team, less turnovers, more defensive rebounds and fewer transition buckets given up all could have helped.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, of course... Having a starting center who has such clear offensive limitations will most definitely hurt...ESPECIALLY in a NBA Finals!! But are you actually surprised to see his limitations on offense? I mean, it's not like he's been putting up 20+ a game. In fact, this season was his lowest ppg average thus far in his career.
For me, I accept Ayton for who he is right now. I love what I've seen from him in terms of his desire to learn and grow. He is a force on the boards and is an incredibly solid defender. I didn't come into this post-season thinking we needed big scoring from Ayton to win. My expectations for him this post-season were for him to do what he has mostly done all post-season... defend & rebound well. He's done that in spades.

jesus... another BS projection with the “he’s not going to score 20 points” and projecting that people are asking for “big scoring”. We’re saying not getting average scoring or even just below average scoring hurt us. And will continue to hurt us if he produces only 6 points on 33% shooting.

6 points for a a guy averaging 14 in the regular season hurts, especially when the rest of the team stinks.

 

[Finito]

Like it’s been said Ayton wasn’t even close to the problem yesterday, but it doesn’t matter people will always go to what they know.

our all time great hall of fame PG played maybe the worst game of his 16 year career and that’s what cost us this game. Like it’s been said if he was even average we win going away

 

[82CardsGrad]

jesus... another BS projection with the “he’s not going to score 20 points”. No one is asking for “big scoring”. We’re saying not getting average scoring or even just below average scoring hurt us. And will continue to hurt us if he produces only 6 points on 33% shooting.

6 points for a a guy averaging 14 in the regular season hurts, especially when the rest of the team stinks.

1.) "Projection?" Seriously Cheese? Is that what you read in my post, or are you "projecting" your own interpretation onto my comments?

2.) Again, Ayton, as our starting Center, does hurt us when he can only muster 6 points. I don't need to elaborate, again, why that shouldn't be much of a surprise, and the folly associated with leaning on Ayton to be a offensive factor in our success... do I?

3.) I could be wrong...but, I believe the Bucks were one of the better defensive teams in the regular season, and have been one of the top defensive teams this post season, no? So to expect a guy with limited offensive weaponry to maintain his output against one of the better defensive teams is not much of a realistic expectation...

 

[DJ Tabooh]

My thoughts exactly. If Paul has an average game, the Suns win by 10.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect maybe your best player NOT to be awful in a big game. Ayton has had many disappearing acts and Bridges is usually kind of streaky.

Are we sure CP3 is our best player? I know he’s the head of the as a PG but in my opinion, this team will go as far as Book will take us. Considering we got blown out in game 3 when he played terrible and were in it and should’ve won last night. This is Book’s first playoffs...he’s had some tough nights shooting the ball but when he’s aggressive and knocking down shots and making plays for others, I think he’s the guy. He’s gotta stop picking up cheap fouls though obviously. He would’ve had a 50 piece last night

 

[Krangodnzr]

Are we sure CP3 is our best player? I know he’s the head of the as a PG but in my opinion, this team will go as far as Book will take us. Considering we got blown out in game 3 when he played terrible and were in it and should’ve won last night. This is Book’s first playoffs...he’s had some tough nights shooting the ball but when he’s aggressive and knocking down shots and making plays for others, I think he’s the guy. He’s gotta stop picking up cheap fouls though obviously. He would’ve had a 50 piece last night

Hence "maybe"

 

[Krangodnzr]

As far as the fouls go, it was another game where every little bump on the Bucks got a foul and it didn't seem the Suns got the same respect.

The Suns do need to be more aggressive though.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Has Giannis, Middleton or Holiday been in foul trouble yet this series? I don't think so... Yet, both Ayton and Booker have been hampered due to foul trouble.
To be clear, I don't see that as much as an issue with the refs, as I do a matter of youth and inexperience.
Aside from CP3+, who I think is simply worn-down and both mentally and physically shot, more than anything our youth and inexperience is surfacing at the most inopportune time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My thoughts exactly. If Paul has an average game, the Suns win by 10.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect maybe your best player NOT to be awful in a big game. Ayton has had many disappearing acts and Bridges is usually kind of streaky.

I find this perspective so complexing. I think it is reasonable to expect your best player to be awful in a big game if they’re injured. And if you’ve watched the suns at all this year I think it’s be obvious that something is wrong with Paul’s hands or wrists. His lack of control of the ball with the dribble or passing is overtly obvious. And this is one of the best ball handlers of all time. This is the guy that commentators marvel about watching his “dance” and watching him put defenders on skates. He looks like he just can’t physically do that at present.

 

[DJ Tabooh]

As far as the fouls go, it was another game where every little bump on the Bucks got a foul and it didn't seem the Suns got the same respect.

The Suns do need to be more aggressive though.

I get that CP3 was awful last night but Holiday is definitely doing a lot of bumping and getting very few fouls. And I’m not saying the refs are why we lost last night because you can’t turn the ball over 17 times...but Giannis and these moving screens...it’s blatant how often he does it with no call. Not worries because we have home court but we need to put Milwaukee in a body bag Saturday and show them who the better team is

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The turnovers and easy buckets given up were way more impactful IMO to the final outcome of the game. Change either of those and you don't even need him to take those shots in the first place. I don't think the Suns have ever gone into a game saying...we need to depend on Ayton's offense to win. Monty didn't say anything post game about missed shots being the reason they lost. I could make a list of shot missed by others and say the same thing. Bottom line Ayton making more shots, CP3 showing up, Bridges showing up, a few more made shots by the team, less turnovers, more defensive rebounds and fewer transition buckets given up all could have helped.

Absolutely. There were a myriad of different ways we could’ve easily won last night. That’s what makes the loss so painful. It was right there for the taking. With the bucks hearts and the series.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

1.) "Projection?" Seriously Cheese? Is that what you read in my post, or are you "projecting" your own interpretation onto my comments?

2.) Again, Ayton, as our starting Center, does hurt us when he can only muster 6 points. I don't need to elaborate, again, why that shouldn't be much of a surprise, and the folly associated with leaning on Ayton to be a offensive factor in our success... do I?

3.) I could be wrong...but, I believe the Bucks were one of the better defensive teams in the regular season, and have been one of the top defensive teams this post season, no? So to expect a guy with limited offensive weaponry to maintain his output against one of the better defensive teams is not much of a realistic expectation...

You’re not wrong on #3, but there’s being limited by a good defensive team and then there’s being limited to 33% shooting when you’re a 60% shooter and having them hold you to 43% of your normal production. Again, he scores 10 points, so still below his average, and we win the game. And yes, same for Bridges, and Paul. And the offensive rebounds. And the turnovers. They ALL contributed to the loss bc if even one of them was a skosh better we win.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Are we sure CP3 is our best player? I know he’s the head of the as a PG but in my opinion, this team will go as far as Book will take us. Considering we got blown out in game 3 when he played terrible and were in it and should’ve won last night. This is Book’s first playoffs...he’s had some tough nights shooting the ball but when he’s aggressive and knocking down shots and making plays for others, I think he’s the guy. He’s gotta stop picking up cheap fouls though obviously. He would’ve had a 50 piece last night

He definitely would’ve had 50. And we would’ve won had he not been in foul trouble. He would’ve dragged that team to the w. It would have been an epic chapter in his personal history.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

As far as the fouls go, it was another game where every little bump on the Bucks got a foul and it didn't seem the Suns got the same respect.

The Suns do need to be more aggressive though.

At one point payne was literally sandwiched between Portis and I think Lopez but bc Portis got the shot up top it was a no call on the Malachi-crunch that occurred on his body.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You’re not wrong on #3, but there’s being limited by a good defensive team and then there’s being limited to 33% shooting when you’re a 60% shooter and having them hold you to 43% of your normal production. Again, he scores 10 points, so still below his average, and we win the game. And yes, same for Bridges, and Paul. And the offensive rebounds. And the turnovers. They ALL contributed to the loss bc if even one of them was a skosh better we win.

I agree... I'll just add that if Paul wasn't so beat down and beat-up, you would've seen those 10 points from Ayton last night...

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree... I'll just add that if Paul wasn't so beat down and beat-up, you would've seen those 10 points from Ayton last night...

Ayton has been able to generate 10 points on his own with awful CP3 or no CP3 at all in these playoffs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree... I'll just add that if Paul wasn't so beat down and beat-up, you would've seen those 10 points from Ayton last night...

Possibly. He did shoot 3-9 after all. At that clip it would’ve meant he needed 6 more shots to hit 2. Ayton at 10pts on 5-15 shooting may have sunk us.