Suns @ Bucks Wednesday Finals game thread 7-14-2021 - Game 4

[Cheesebeef]

I can live with Ayton not scoring if he is playing on the other end. He was. He had some huge defensive plays and I don't care what anybody says he is battling down there. Not mistake free but he is battling. He has been this entire playoffs. In fact, offensively he is playin well above his station IMO considering he doesn't create his own shot. My only real expectation for him is to help us get some easy shots. I don't expect him to put up 20+ per game. We don't nee Ayton to do that to win if the rest of the team is pulling it's weight (mainly CP3).

17 turnovers, 17 given up offensive rebounds and they killed us in fast break points. Monty going to Chris after struggling. Yes it would have been a nice security blanket had Ayton put up 20 but he is not remotely the reason we lost that game.

Man... why did you just project a complete BS argument on the discussion. No one has even come CLOSE to saying Ayton needs to score 20 plus. And you bring that number up MULTIPLE time

asking him to score 10-12 points minimum just isn’t asking that much. And if he can’t do that because he can’t create his own shot yet after 3 years in the league, it’s a flaw that deserves a little criticism.

again, he’s not number 1, 2 or 3 reason we lost. But his lack of offense on a night when no one but Booker showed up on that side of the court did hurt us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There are no expectations of Ayton at present? What am I missing??

Dude had 17 boards last night. The Connaughton rebound was bad... but, it's not like Ayton had 5 boards all night. He isn't perfect...so hammer for not being perfect I guess.
Offensively is where he has a TON of work to do. For now, if CP3 can't run the offense in ways that put Ayton in positions to score, Ayton will almost assuredly be kept under 10 points as he has virtually zero low-post game.
Additionally, Giannis was largely held in control last night (by his standards). That is solely due to Ayton's defense on Giannis...

You absolve him for most responsibility when he has poor games and REALLY like to throw around his age as an excuse. So I’m asking you, what age or how many seasons do you stop trotting that out as an excuse for a shortcoming or poor performance in part of his game?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can live with Ayton not scoring if he is playing on the other end. He was. He had some huge defensive plays and I don't care what anybody says he is battling down there. Not mistake free but he is battling. He has been this entire playoffs. In fact, offensively he is playin well above his station IMO considering he doesn't create his own shot. My only real expectation for him is to help us get some easy shots. I don't expect him to put up 20+ per game. We don't nee Ayton to do that to win if the rest of the team is pulling it's weight (mainly CP3).

17 turnovers, 17 given up offensive rebounds and they killed us in fast break points. Monty going to Chris after struggling. Yes it would have been a nice security blanket had Ayton put up 20 but he is not remotely the reason we lost that game.

Who said anything about 20pts? How about near his season average with his typical efficiency. Should we not have that expectation of him? That would’ve won us the game last night.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Man... why did you just project a complete BS argument on the discussion. No one has even come CLOSE to saying Ayton needs to score 20 plus. And you bring that number up MULTIPLE time

asking him to score 10-12 points minimum just isn’t asking that much. And if he can’t do that because he can’t create his own shot yet after 3 years in the league, it’s a flaw that deserves a little criticism.

again, he’s not number 1, 2 or 3 reason we lost. But his lack of offense on a night when no one but Booker showed up on that side of the court did hurt us.

Fair and balanced perspective... Yes, it would be so amazing if Ayton had developed a low-post game at this point. But, do you have any doubt that he won't? Perhaps next season...and continue to refine and develop his abilities to create on his own? I don't...and that is my perspective. I can live with his shortfalls on offense as I see a guy who quickly became an extremely solid defender and rebounder!

 

[82CardsGrad]

You absolve him for most responsibility when he has poor games and REALLY like to throw around his age as an excuse. So I’m asking you, what age or how many seasons do you stop trotting that out as an excuse for a shortcoming or poor performance in part of his game?

See my response to your 'lil bro. You hammer the guy as if he's supposed to be at Giannis's level right now. The fact that I choose a different perspective clearly frustrates you.
Anyway...as I mentioned to cheese, I am optimistic about his ability to develop a credible low-post game next season. I am also extremely confident that he will refine his offensive game over the coming years to where he WILL become a better than average 7-footer scorer with a very solid ability to create and get his own shot!
Until then, I accept his shortcomings on offense as he demonstrates great growth and production defensively and on the boards!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Man... why did you just project a complete BS argument on the discussion. No one has even come CLOSE to saying Ayton needs to score 20 plus. And you bring that number up MULTIPLE time

asking him to score 10-12 points minimum just isn’t asking that much. And if he can’t do that because he can’t create his own shot yet after 3 years in the league, it’s a flaw that deserves a little criticism.

again, he’s not number 1, 2 or 3 reason we lost. But his lack of offense on a night when no one but Booker showed up on that side of the court did hurt us.

It’s amazing that some posters can’t understand simple concepts like: everyone but Booker failed offensively this game and it’s okay to talk about each of their failings individually. So if I talk about Ayton shooting 33% and getting only a single offensive rebound suddenly I’m blaming the entire loss on him. Lol. Such poor lack of understanding the simple concept of conversation. But those posters are angry and need to vent somewhere and can’t direct it at their lovechild Ayton, so attack posters with hyperbole and straw man arguments ensue.

Also, the argument that Ayton “can’t create his own shot” is a) incorrect - once he has the ball in the post he has a turnaround or spot of jumper and has a nice little jump hook, that’s shot creation people; and b) if the claim is he can’t establish proper post position or can’t create shots, as a third year pro who has gotten BIG minutes his entire career, that’s an Ayton problem and definitely deserving of criticism.

 

[Covert Rain]

Man... why did you just project a complete BS argument on the discussion. No one has even come CLOSE to saying Ayton needs to score 20 plus. And you bring that number up MULTIPLE time

asking him to score 10-12 points minimum just isn’t asking that much. And if he can’t do that because he can’t create his own shot yet after 3 years in the league, it’s a flaw that deserves a little criticism.

again, he’s not number 1, 2 or 3 reason we lost. But his lack of offense on a night when no one but Booker showed up on that side of the court did hurt us.

What the heck are you talking about? Did you not see the expectation discussion above? Did you not see people harping and nitpicking Ayton even though he grabbed 17? I was making a general comment anyway that I DON'T THINK he needs to put up 20+. If I am referring to someone specific I know how to use the QUOTE feature. Thanks.

Nobody has suggested that expecting him to put up 10-12 points is asking much. Now who is projecting a b.s. statement? Who here is saying that is too much to expect?

In terms of developing his own shot? That has not been his role for 3 years. He has never been a primary offensive option. That's not what they have asked of him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

See my response to your 'lil bro. You hammer the guy as if he's supposed to be at Giannis's level right now. The fact that I choose a different perspective clearly frustrates you.
Anyway...as I mentioned to cheese, I am optimistic about his ability to develop a credible low-post game next season. I am also extremely confident that he will refine his offensive game over the coming years to where he WILL become a better than average 7-footer scorer with a very solid ability to create and get his own shot!
Until then, I accept his shortcomings on offense as he demonstrates great growth and production defensively and on the boards!

See my last two posts. And don’t put words in my mouth - that’s weak sauce BS argument. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD has claimed he should put up giannis numbers offensively. That’s patently ridiculous for you claim anyone has said it. The only reason to say it is to create an argument against which it’s easier to argue. I just said his season average is a reasonable expectation. Would argue that’s unreasonable? Stick to what I actually state in responding please.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don’t disagree. But I think it’s naive to think that all of sudden Chris Paul can’t pass bc he’s being guarded full court. We know he has a hand injury - maybe two. We’ve seen his passes and handles be off before with an injury to his upper extremity in the first round. To just say Paul played badly and ignore the potential of the injury is just being purposefully obtuse. It doesn’t mean that Paul’s play isn’t a primary culprit, but it may be because of injury not bc he’s suddenly been a bad pg.

And you’re right, we can win when Ayton plays poorly offensively if Paul is on his game. We have also shown that we can win when Paul is off his game if Ayton plays well offensively. We just can’t have both play poorly on the offensive end and that’s what happened last night.

Ayton still isn't a complete center. He still isn't fully capable of creating his own shots consistently, few centers are.

If Paul isn't 100%, the Suns need to adjust. With his shooting woes AND ball handling/passing issues, Paul just isn't very good, whatever the reasons are. Maybe Payne has to play more? Booker handle the rock more? I don't know, I don't have all of the info. But if the series works out last like the past two games, it's going to be a lot harder to walk away as Champions.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It’s amazing that some posters can’t understand simple concepts like: everyone but Booker failed offensively this game and it’s okay to talk about each of their failings individually.

I agree. That's part & parcel of post-game dialogue!

So if I talk about Ayton shooting 33% and getting only a single offensive rebound suddenly I’m blaming the entire loss on him. Lol. Such poor lack of understanding the simple concept of conversation. But those posters are angry and need to vent somewhere and can’t direct it at their lovechild Ayton, so attack posters with hyperbole and straw man arguments ensue.

Sorta like when you claim certain posters are "absolving" Ayton of any wrong-doing, simply because those posters choose not to be as vehement in their criticism as you?

Also, the argument that Ayton “can’t create his own shot” is a) incorrect - once he has the ball in the post he has a turnaround or spot of jumper and has a nice little jump hook, that’s shot creation people; and b) if the claim is he can’t establish proper post position or can’t create shots, as a third year pro who has gotten BIG minutes his entire career, that’s an Ayton problem and definitely deserving of criticism.

Yes, Ayton has some "moves" down low. But c'mon...they are quite unrefined and his comfort-level isn't there. He much prefers to be around the rim versus taking 7-10 foot fade-aways. And YES, you call this out for sure. That's your choice. Some posters see the shortcomings AND can also see what he's done on defense and on the boards, AND can also see the potential for great development on his offensive game.

 

[82CardsGrad]

See my last two posts. And don’t put words in my mouth - that’s weak sauce BS argument. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD has claimed he should put up giannis numbers offensively. That’s patently ridiculous for you claim anyone has said it. The only reason to say it is to create an argument against which it’s easier to argue. I just said his season average is a reasonable expectation. Would argue that’s unreasonable? Stick to what I actually state in responding please.

Sorry... you did mention that Giannis was better at 22 than Ayton is... I don't think what I said is too big of a stretch given your reference to Giannis.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Fair and balanced perspective... Yes, it would be so amazing if Ayton had developed a low-post game at this point. But, do you have any doubt that he won't? Perhaps next season...and continue to refine and develop his abilities to create on his own? I don't...and that is my perspective. I can live with his shortfalls on offense as I see a guy who quickly became an extremely solid defender and rebounder!

i think he’ll get better in the future, absolutely. But his limitations right now on offense did hurt us last night. Same as Bridges, who actually started off on a good little run and getting to his spot in the lane for the little jumper then went AWOL.

but again, the overwhelming majority of blame goes on Paul and secondarily Monty last night.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree. That's part & parcel of post-game dialogue!

Sorta like when you claim certain posters are "absolving" Ayton of any wrong-doing, simply because those posters choose not to be as vehement in their criticism as you?


Yes, Ayton has some "moves" down low. But c'mon...they are quite unrefined and his comfort-level isn't there. He much prefers to be around the rim versus taking 7-10 foot fade-aways. And YES, you call this out for sure. That's your choice. Some posters see the shortcomings AND can also see what he's done on defense and on the boards, AND can also see the potential for great development on his offensive game.

I’m really only calling out Finito bc, to date, he has absolved Ayton completely. He doesn’t just criticize Ayton less vehemently than me as you suggest, it’s responding to me with excuses for his poor play. To my knowledge I have never seen him criticize Ayton, only defend him. Seems pretty much like blanket absolution, no? You mischaracteriE him when you give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s critical of Ayton at all. I’m open to being proven wrong. Which of his posts in this thread criticizes Ayton, even less vehemently than me, for failing to meet his regular season point or shooting percentage averages? Anything? Anyone?

 

[Covert Rain]

Also, the argument that Ayton “can’t create his own shot” is a) incorrect - once he has the ball in the post he has a turnaround or spot of jumper and has a nice little jump hook, that’s shot creation people; and b) if the claim is he can’t establish proper post position or can’t create shots, as a third year pro who has gotten BIG minutes his entire career, that’s an Ayton problem and definitely deserving of criticism.

Just because someone does something doesn't mean they have developed it. That is what I meant by "creating your own shot". When you have successfully developed that part of your game you are able to create your own shot (successfully). I don't think anybody is question he if he can get himself into position to take a shot. That's not the same thing.

Maybe he has struggled developing that part of his game behind closed doors. Maybe that's all Ayton. That might be true. I don't know. However, they have not asked him to play that role in games for the last 3 years. He has not been a primary option. It's not the role they have asked him to play. EVERYBODY has been shocked at his offensive output in the playoffs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sorry... you did mention that Giannis was better at 22 than Ayton is... I don't think what I said is too big of a stretch given your reference to Giannis.

What reference to giannis??? I have NEVER said my expectation is for Ayton to be giannis, at any age. In fact I’ve never raised ANY comparison to giannis. Others have as a straw man argument.

 

[82CardsGrad]

i think he’ll get better in the future, absolutely. But his limitations right now on offense did hurt us last night. Same as Bridges, who actually started off on a good little run and getting to his spot in the lane for the little jumper then went AWOL.

but again, the overwhelming majority of blame goes on Paul and secondarily Monty last night.

Yes, of course... Having a starting center who has such clear offensive limitations will most definitely hurt...ESPECIALLY in a NBA Finals!! But are you actually surprised to see his limitations on offense? I mean, it's not like he's been putting up 20+ a game. In fact, this season was his lowest ppg average thus far in his career.
For me, I accept Ayton for who he is right now. I love what I've seen from him in terms of his desire to learn and grow. He is a force on the boards and is an incredibly solid defender. I didn't come into this post-season thinking we needed big scoring from Ayton to win. My expectations for him this post-season were for him to do what he has mostly done all post-season... defend & rebound well. He's done that in spades.

 

[Chaplin]

Everything else being the same, if Chris Paul just played average, we would have won that game.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Just because someone does something doesn't mean they have developed it. That is what I meant by "creating your own shot". When you have successfully developed that part of your game you are able to create your own shot (successfully). I don't think anybody is question he if he can get himself into position to take a shot. That's not the same thing.

Maybe he has struggled developing that part of his game behind closed doors. Maybe that's all Ayton. That might be true. I don't know. However, they have not asked him to play that role in games for the last 3 years. He has not been a primary option. It's not the roll they have asked him to play. EVERYBODY has been shocked at his offensive output in the playoffs.

I don’t know the answer to this question, but who in the team takes the third and fourth most shots/game over the past season? Past three seasons? I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Ayton. In which case, we absolutely do rely on him for offense, no?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes, of course... Having a starting center who has such clear offensive limitations will most definitely hurt...ESPECIALLY in a NBA Finals!! But are you actually surprised to see his limitations on offense? I mean, it's not like he's been putting up 20+ a game. In fact, this season was his lowest ppg average thus far in his career.
For me, I accept Ayton for who he is right now. I love what I've seen from him in terms of his desire to learn and grow. He is a force on the boards and is an incredibly solid defender. I didn't come into this post-season thinking we needed big scoring from Ayton to win. My expectations for him this post-season were for him to do what he has mostly done all post-season... defend & rebound well. He's done that in spades.

And you never adjust expectations? This postseason, a not insignificant number of games, he was scoring at a higher clip than regular season. Should we not adjust expectations based on seeing what he is capable of?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Giannis was better offensively at age 22.

Here is your reference that I, uh, referenced...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Everything else being the same, if Chris Paul just played average, we would have won that game.

If Paul, Ayton, or Bridges has played to their offensive average we would have won last night.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Here is your reference that I, uh, referenced...

That was in response to your straw man argument that I expected Ayton to be giannis, which I never claimed.

 

[Chaplin]

If Paul, Ayton, or Bridges has played to their offensive average we would have won last night.

Of course, but I'm just saying if Paul did, even with Bridges and Ayton doing what they did, we would have won. Paul affects the game THAT much.

That said, I'm not too concerned with Ayton. I'm VERY concerned with Bridges though.

 

[82CardsGrad]

And you never adjust expectations? This postseason, a not insignificant number of games, he was scoring at a higher clip than regular season. Should we not adjust expectations based on seeing what he is capable of?

You can... I didn't. I saw his increased scoring as more a function of other guys, namely CP3, getting in and remaining in a great offensive flow, where DA was being routinely placed in excellent scoring positions.
Now, with dudes like Holiday, Tucker and even Middleton, who are all bigger and stronger than Paul, and whom represent a major upgrade in talent and defensive ability versus what CP3 had faced up to this series, Ayton's scoring is dropping...
That is not at all overlooking Ayton's crystal clear shortcomings on offense. As I stated, it's not a good thing to have your starting center in a NBA Finals, to be so compromised on offense. But that is not a surprise. It's who he's been all season.
My ire is way more directed at CP3 and the role he is playing in our losses, including the lack of flow on offense.

 

[82CardsGrad]

That was in response to your straw man argument that I expected Ayton to be giannis, which I never claimed.

Ugh... I made no such strawman. My reference to Giannis was simply to point out that Giannis at 22 was not the Giannis we see today, period. Meaning, my expectation is that the Ayton we see at 22 will not be the Ayton we see 4 years from now. Period.