Shaq to Dallas?

[Brianellsworth]

Bynum

Bynum??? Injury PRONE and his contract is 12.5, 13.8, 15.1, 16.4. for the next 4 years startign next year. I would say that falls pretty dang close into the category of 15 mil a year range. You really think his knees will hold up and he will be worth his contract? You can't be serious Cobbler I know you are a lakers homer but lets think logically.

 

[cobbler]

if Damp and Stack are expring contracts,
i would trade shaq for the two.

i think Stat would be happy if he is paired with a defensive minded center.

btw,
can dallas include barea in that trade?

Damp and stack fpr shaq is a terrible trade.

You are better off hoping Shaq comes back strong next year and getting the 20 mil expiring at the end of the year

 

[Covert Rain]

Bynum

Nice try and I am not convinced Bynum could do the same job or stay injury free long enough to do the job.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Damp and stack fpr shaq is a terrible trade.

You are better off hoping Shaq comes back strong next year and getting the 20 mil expiring at the end of the year

The Suns would need 2 1st round picks in the deal to make it even.

 

[cobbler]

Bynum??? Injury PRONE and his contract is 12.5, 13.8, 15.1, 16.4. for the next 4 years startign next year. I would say that falls pretty dang close into the category of 15 mil a year range. You really think his knees will hold up and he will be worth his contract? You can't be serious Cobbler I know you are a lakers homer but lets think logically.

He asked for one.... and I picked the first obvious one since he would have been a free agent this summer had the lakers not extended him. He was projected to be offered 10-12 and the lakers were ridiculed for giving him what they did. As far as the injuries, I dont think he is prone. Both were kinda flukey. Well see. And if you think 12-16 for 4 years is the same as 15-20... then WOW. Its like a 10 mil difference over the 4 years.

Again, i just used him as an obvious choice. Jefferson and Nene also could be used. Just my 2 cents. I really doubt you could mind a lot of people who fell Shaq is actually worth 20 mil at this stage of his career.

 

[cobbler]

Nice try and I am not convinced Bynum could do the same job or stay injury free long enough to do the job.

One can never predict the injury thing. Hopefully it was just a fluke. Time will tell. As far as do the same job, I fully expect him to be much better.

 

[Covert Rain]

He asked for one.... and I picked the first obvious one since he would have been a free agent this summer had the lakers not extended him. He was projected to be offered 10-12 and the lakers were ridiculed for giving him what they did. As far as the injuries, I dont think he is prone. Both were kinda flukey. Well see. And if you think 12-16 for 4 years is the same as 15-20... then WOW. Its like a 10 mil difference over the 4 years.

Again, i just used him as an obvious choice. Jefferson and Nene also could be used. Just my 2 cents. I really doubt you could mind a lot of people who fell Shaq is actually worth 20 mil at this stage of his career.

If Shaq can perform at this level for the rest of the contract he is worth it. I have read many articles from many beat writers who agree. If Shaq was still playing like he did in Miami that last year (which is what eveyone expected) I would agree.

Also, none of the guys you mentioned would have the same impact. I have yet to see one name out there that could produce on the same level that wouldn't fetch at least a $15 million dollar contract per year.

The NBA market would dictate a salary that high for a player of that calibur.

 

[cobbler]

I completely disagree. Go figure.

 

[Covert Rain]

I completely disagree. Go figure.

Your also have a biased against Shaq so ofcourse you do. Besides, the only player you mentioned above that compares to Shaq stat wise is Jefferson. He is a better offensive player at this stage in his career but gives up more points form the center position then Shaq. The Timberwolves also give up more points in the paint then the Suns per game with Jefferson. I said...both ends of the court.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

The only reason why we are discussing this is because we don't agree on why Shaq shoud be traded. It's from more of a financial/rebuilding reason for me. You indicated it's his performance which I don't get because even at this age he is one of the best.

Shaq does fill the paint on defense. The Suns used to allow on average right around 40 PPG in the paint pre-Shaq. Now they are only allowing around 30 PPG in the paint (4th best in the NBA). We are only behind San Antonio, Orlando and Boston. That a huge impact on the other end of the court and to say Shaq doesn't get it done is ridiculous. There are only 3 other teams that get it done better in the paint thanks to Shaq.

This team can't stop anybody on the perimeter. We allow nearly 34 PPG on average from the 2 (2nd worst in the NBA) and 23.1 from the 3 (3rd worst in the NBA). This team's problems defensively at the pick and roll are grossly exaggerated. This teams problems are not because Shaq can't defend. You can thank almost every other position on the floor for their lack of perimeter defense. You can thank a PG who is #3 overall in the NBA at turning the ball over. You can thank a team that is one of the worst in the NBA at turning the ball over. All that leads to easy buckets.

Why would any team want to take it into the paint on Shaq when all they have to do is run a pick n roll against him for 10-15 foot uncontested jumpers all game long?

 

[Covert Rain]

Why would any team want to take it into the paint on Shaq when all they have to do is run a pick n roll against him for 10-15 foot uncontested jumpers all game long?

Because they can't. Most teams don't even run the pick and roll very well. Very few teams do. Don't be ridiculous. It's not like a team can call that play 90% of the time down the court.

 

[cobbler]

Your also have a biased against Shaq so ofcourse you do.

And you are also overboard in your pro Shaq stance. So what.

Only three other guys in the top 10 make 15-20 mil ...and two of them, Gasol and Yoa make 15. You really think there are others that would simply leapfrog greater talents an make more? You really think Shaq is playing at Gasol or Yao's level?

My original point was to show that at 20 mil, Shaq is overpaid. Spin it all the way you want with your paint defense % etc but I really dont think you can find many supporters of his earning 21 mil.

And let's not forget, In the paint D is not ALL D. There are many aspects to playing defense and pick and roll D is a huge part of a centers responsibilities. Shaq has been a notoriously bad P&R defender. Couple that with the Suns awful perimeter D and you have a receipe for disaster.

So maybe a center that played both would suit the Suns better. Maybe just maybe the in the paint D was decent because so many opponents had wide open midrange jumpers after the P&R? It's all hypothetical to say the least.

As I said before, my point is at 21 mil Shaq is overpaid and I stand by it.

 

[cobbler]

Because they can't. Most teams don't even run the pick and roll very well. Very few teams do. Don't be ridiculous. It's not like a team can call that play 90% of the time down the court.

You can't be serious? Many teams run the pick and roll well and it's commonly used! All the elite teams run it constantly. I would think a Suns fan would know that more than most. It's your weakness.

I also know this because its a glaring weakness of the Lakers D.

 

[Covert Rain]

And you are also overboard in your pro Shaq stance. So what.

Only three other guys in the top 10 make 15-20 mil ...and two of them, Gasol and Yoa make 15. You really think there are others that would simply leapfrog greater talents an make more? You really think Shaq is playing at Gasol or Yao's level?

My original point was to show that at 20 mil, Shaq is overpaid. Spin it all the way you want with your paint defense % etc but I really dont think you can find many supporters of his earning 21 mil.

And let's not forget, In the paint D is not ALL D. There are many aspects to playing defense and pick and roll D is a huge part of a centers responsibilities. Shaq has been a notoriously bad P&R defender. Couple that with the Suns awful perimeter D and you have a receipe for disaster.

So maybe a center that played both would suit the Suns better. Maybe just maybe the in the paint D was decent because so many opponents had wide open midrange jumpers after the P&R? It's all hypothetical to say the least.

As I said before, my point is at 21 mil Shaq is overpaid and I stand by it.

Yes, because stats are just spin. Please. You have not proven a thing yet and still can't provide one player that backs up what you say that wouldn't command a $15 million dollar or more free agent contract.

That is what I call spin.

You can't be serious? Many teams run the pick and roll well and it's commonly used! All the elite teams run it constantly. I would think a Suns fan would know that more than most. It's your weakness.

I also know this because its a glaring weakness of the Lakers D.

I am serious. You can tell which teams run the pick and roll by assisted stats by teams. There are a few teams with high assist amounts and the rest are not even close. I bet I could easily name more teams that suck and the pick and roll then you could name and back up where it's a staple (a main weapon).

P.S. I have no vested stake in Shaq. When he is gone is the day I stop routing for the guy. I care about this team and results. I don't let my hate or vile dictate my evaluation of his play. There plenty of players that I hate in the NBA but I don't go around taking shots or bashing them without facts just because I hate them.

 

[cobbler]

Yes, because stats are just spin. Please. You have not proven a thing yet and still can't provide one player that backs up what you say that wouldn't command a $15 million dollar or more free agent contract.

That is what I call spin.




I am serious. You can tell which teams run the pick and roll by assisted stats by teams. There are a few teams with high assist amounts and the rest are not even close. I bet I could easily name more teams that suck and the pick and roll then you could name and back up where it's a staple (a main weapon).

So in one reply you say stats are just spin....

...and in the next you defend you P&R comments by using stats as the indicator.

I dont even have to contradict you. You do it to yourself.

I have had enough of your silliness for a night.

Take care.

 

[Covert Rain]

So in one reply you say stats are just spin....

...and in the next you defend you P&R comments by using stats as the indicator.

I dont even have to contradict you. You do it to yourself.

I have had enough of your silliness for a night.

Take care.

Obviously, my attempt as sarcasm was really bad or it went over your head. There was a "Please" after that statement. Either way I take it as a compliment went someone trolling calls someone else silly.

PS. To make it more clear I added a rolling eyes just for you.

 

[Bufalay]

You two going at it again? Get a room.

 

[cobbler]

You two going at it again? Get a room.

hehehehehe Touchee!

I have higher standards!

 

[Covert Rain]

hehehehehe Touchee!

I have higher standards!

A troll with high standards. Mmmm.

PS. B. This was one of or more civil conversations.

 

[lou_skywalker]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4054759A

they say its not likely to happen.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

I am serious. You can tell which teams run the pick and roll by assisted stats by teams. There are a few teams with high assist amounts and the rest are not even close. I bet I could easily name more teams that suck and the pick and roll then you could name and back up where it's a staple (a main weapon)..

Umm, not necessarily. Often the ballhandler shoots a jumpshot on a pick and roll if the defender doesn't come out to contest him. No assist there. The Spurs killed us in the 1st round of the playoffs last season with the pick n roll, as Tony Parker hit uncontested jump shot after uncontested jumpshot.

 

[Covert Rain]

Umm, not necessarily. Often the ballhandler shoots a jumpshot on a pick and roll if the defender doesn't come out to contest him. No assist there. The Spurs killed us in the 1st round of the playoffs last season with the pick n roll, as Tony Parker hit uncontested jump shot after uncontested jumpshot.

Then that is a screen. Not a pick and roll. Pick and Roll requires the other guy to roll to the basket. So is he bad at picking up screens or pick and rolls? Again, show me a game where you can pin the majority of points to that singular play and blame it on Shaq. Tony scored a ton of points off of shaking Nash and making outside shots that had nothing to do with Shaq.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Then that is a screen. Not a pick and roll. Pick and Roll requires the other guy to roll to the basket. So is he bad at picking up screens or pick and rolls? Again, show me a game where you can pin the majority of points to that singular play and blame it on Shaq.

Oh please, now you're either being facetious or you're twisting semantics to make it appear as though you're right - you're not. Did I really have to include "then the screener rolls to the basket, the screened defender follows and the guy who's supposed to come out to defend the ballhandler stands still, allowing the ballhandler a wide open, uncontested jumpshot" ? There, I said it.

And here you go. Here's your "one game".

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280425021


Oh, but Shaq is so good at stopping points in the paint, why does it matter if teams pop uncontested 15 footers, right?

 

[Covert Rain]

Oh please, now you're either being facetious or you're twisting semantics to make it appear as though you're right - you're not. Did I really have to include "then the screener rolls to the basket, the screened defender follows and the guy who's supposed to come out to defend the ballhandler stands still, allowing the ballhandler a wide open, uncontested jumpshot" ? There, I said it.

And here you go. Here's your "one game".

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280425021

Semantics? Have you ever played basketball? There is a difference between a pick and roll and a screen. I distinctly remember my coach having 2 different plays for each. I was just trying to clarify which one you say he is bad at. Guys rarely straight up try and screen Shaq. I have already agreed that his pick and roll is his weakness.

Also, you did not give me an example. Posting a game where Parker scored a high number of points and saying that the majority were caused by Shaq??? You going to sit here and tell me that Parker rolled off screens the majority of the time from Shaq?? Really?? You going to sit here and tell me that there were more instances of that then Parker simply blowing by his man?? Really?? Now that is twisting the facts.

Yes, Shaq has a weakness. Every player does. It doesn't mean that weakness is the cause of all the problems on this team. This team had defensive problems pre-Shaq. This team was one of the worst paint teams in the NBA pre-Shaq. Ignoring those facts doesn't make it less true.

This team has lost Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion. Both players were good perimeter defenders. Raja Bell used to be a good defender on the perimeter and for some reason couldn't get it done here the last year and a half. That is why this teams defense sucks. No perimeter defense. The stats back that up. That has more to do with it then Shaq's pick and roll defense which accounts for a fraction of points in any given game.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Semantics? Have you ever played basketball? There is a difference between a pick and roll and a screen. I distinctly remember my coach having 2 different plays for each. I was just trying to clarify which one you say he is bad at. Guys rarely straight up try and screen Shaq. I have already agreed that his pick and roll is his weakness.

Also, you did not give me an example. Posting a game where Parker scored a high number of points and saying that the majority were caused by Shaq??? You going to sit here and tell me that Parker rolled off screens the majority of the time from Shaq?? Really?? You going to sit here and tell me that there were more instances of that then Parker simply blowing by his man?? Really?? Now that is twisting the facts.

Yes, Shaq has a weakness. Every player does. It doesn't mean that weakness it the cause of all the problems on this team. This team had defensive problems pre-Shaq. This team was one of the worst paint teams in the NBA pre-Shaq. Ignoring those facts doesn't make it less true.

I gave you a GREAT example. Did you watch game 3 last April? Shaq refused to come out and defend Parker after Nash was picked on numerous occasions. It resulted in Parker pouring in points on uncontested jumpers. You want proof that I'm not "twisting the facts"? Pay for the game on nba.com and watch it.