Reality Check

[conraddobler]

Time to put this to rest once and for all for everyone including the ones who think we are the cheapest thing to walk the earth.

Time to bust out some facts so no one can make any assumptions from here on out about how we spend.

Graves first 3 years here (2003-2005):

NFL's average total salary spent on players - $80,895,521
Cardinals average total salary spend on players - $78,845,145

So while we were not dead last, 20th actually, we were and still are below average. I dont have the total amounts for the other teams for 2006 yet but I do know we were right in the middle this year even with the Matt and Edge bonuses.

Also to get rid of another notion while I am at it. Philly and NE whom some have stated we follow their cap model. Both spent and avergae of 7 Mill more then we did. Meaning they got and paid for 7 Mill worth more of players each year over a 3 year period maiking it total of 21 mill more spend then we did between 2003-2005, without having to spend it on high draft picks. I wont even get into how much they spend more on coaches. But I digress.

Now here is the odd part. We actually spent more then average in the 3 years prior to Graves being here (2000-2002). In fact we actually spent more money on players salary in 2000 then any other team.

NFL's average total salary spent on players - $62,185,980
Cardinals average total salary spend on players - $66,823,281

That actually puts us in the top 10 in those 3 years.

So to summarize we are actually spending less then the league average on players salaries compared to the rest of the league during Graves/Mikey control(or what ever control he has, we still dont know yet) but spending more then the average before they took control. And we are not following the NE and Philly model.

But while we are under average during the Graves/Mike era we arent even close to being dead last like a lot of poeple think we are. We are close to dead last in coaching salaries but not what we pay for players. So we arent nearly as cheap as some would lead you to believe. And this is only an answer to what has been spent. I didnt do any coorelations between how teams spend and if they have a history of winning over that time frame.

The top 10 teams in salary spent from 2003 to 2005 are in order -

Seattle Seahawks
Washington Redskins
Atlanta Falcons
New Orleans Saints
Minnesota Vikings
Baltimore Ravens
Houston Texans
Philadelphia Eagles
New England Patriots

Edit - Where you can check my facts if you feel the need.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2002

That's a great post and it's very enlightening but when in comes to the Cardinals it's best to keep it simple.

Stupid is forever.

 

[joeshmo]

Thanks for the info Joe. Question: Where do you find the coaches salaries?

BTW, was the reason for us spending the most in 2000 because of a Buddy Ryan hangover?

I get the coaching salary info from a buddy I have within the NFLPA. They dont keep track of coaching salary info like they do the players info because it isnt involved in any NFLPA rules. But they do have access to that info. It is also pretty tight lipped info as well unless the team gives it out on their own free will, and with that all he will tell me is where they rankings he wont give me exact prices. From the time Green got here compared to his last year, we went from dead last to 28th after some coaching changes during that 3 year time period. Now the coaches that we fired or didnt retian were most of the lowest paid guys we had on the coaching staff, so I expect that 28th ranking to rise again this year as well once we fill those positions depending on what the other teams looking for assistant coaches do this year as well of course. So it does seem to be getting better, now by how much isnt known this year is not known. This is all concerning assistant coaches. Head coach was in the average area.

As for why we spent the most in 2000, I am not sure unless I did some research. I didnt start keeping specific track with my own spreadsheets of the Cards until 2001 season.

 

[john h]

So, Steve, how do you and cbus and the other "Cards are cheap" explain the team's swallowing seven, now eight, coaching contracts for fired coaches in the last three years?

Oh, wait, those don't count because they contradict your opinions.

In the long run this was about money. Better to eat 2.5 mil with Green than lose ticket sales and continue down the same path of losing.

 

[john h]

Three things that impress me most about Rod Graves:

1. He has class.

2. He has an exemplary work ethic.

3. He has made significant progress in the way in which the Cardinals negotiate and finalize contracts.

I am glad he's been re-signed. I believe he deserves it.

So many of you won't let the trade down draft go...in retrospect it was indeed a mistake...BUT...look at it this way...if Graves drafted Boldin and Pace in the first round and Bryant Johnson on the second...would you be that upset? Boldin is headed to his second Pro Bowl...and he was taken in the 2nd round of that same draft...not only that, Graves has signed Boldin to a long term extension...

I also admire the way Graves and Michael Bidwill are being super aggressive in finding their next head coach...to the point of Graves flying all over the place to interview candidates...that speaks to this man's commitment and the aforementioned work ethic.

Skkorp is right...Graves deserves a great deal more respect than what he has been getting on this board and from the media.

Rod Graves may be one of the finest human beings on earth but his job description includes winning games and that his is goal and what he is measured by in the NFL. He could be the devil incarnate but if he won 10 games he would be hailed an all conquering hero. Most of us do not know any of these coaches and all we have to go by is their won loss record and that is what we measure them by. My boss sure measures me on my output and not my wonderful personality and being an all around good guy.

 

[john h]

wow I just read all the posts and I'm tired.

After all this the question still remains, Is Rod Graves good at drafting or sighning free agents? If you go by the record the answer would have to be no. If you go by the talent level compared to 3 years ago you may have to say yes.

I think that this years draft and free agency period will give us the answer.

I am looking forward to see who is right and who is wrong.


az240z

One thing we know if we are to believe Graves own words at his recent press conference and that is he makes the FINAL decision! So we cannot lay any thing that happens on the coach who may give advice but does not have the RESPONSIBILITY for the results. I have been wondering about this for years. He did not say he picked the Coach and I would guess he does confer with the Bidwills on this but does have a strong input. Papa Bidwill has been around a long time and knows most of these guys and knows who to ask about their opinion. He seems to be well liked among most owners (exclude Jerry Jones).

 

[football karma]

Time to put this to rest once and for all for everyone including the ones who think we are the cheapest thing to walk the earth.

Time to bust out some facts so no one can make any assumptions from here on out about how we spend.

Graves first 3 years here (2003-2005):

NFL's average total salary spent on players - $80,895,521
Cardinals average total salary spend on players - $78,845,145

So while we were not dead last, 20th actually, we were and still are below average. I dont have the total amounts for the other teams for 2006 yet but I do know we were right in the middle this year even with the Matt and Edge bonuses.

Also to get rid of another notion while I am at it. Philly and NE whom some have stated we follow their cap model. Both spent and avergae of 7 Mill more then we did. Meaning they got and paid for 7 Mill worth more of players each year over a 3 year period maiking it total of 21 mill more spend then we did between 2003-2005, without having to spend it on high draft picks. I wont even get into how much they spend more on coaches. But I digress.

Now here is the odd part. We actually spent more then average in the 3 years prior to Graves being here (2000-2002). In fact we actually spent more money on players salary in 2000 then any other team.

NFL's average total salary spent on players - $62,185,980
Cardinals average total salary spend on players - $66,823,281

That actually puts us in the top 10 in those 3 years.

So to summarize we are actually spending less then the league average on players salaries compared to the rest of the league during Graves/Mikey control(or what ever control he has, we still dont know yet) but spending more then the average before they took control. And we are not following the NE and Philly model.

But while we are under average during the Graves/Mike era we arent even close to being dead last like a lot of poeple think we are. We are close to dead last in coaching salaries but not what we pay for players. So we arent nearly as cheap as some would lead you to believe. And this is only an answer to what has been spent. I didnt do any coorelations between how teams spend and if they have a history of winning over that time frame.

The top 10 teams in salary spent from 2003 to 2005 are in order -

Seattle Seahawks
Washington Redskins
Atlanta Falcons
New Orleans Saints
Minnesota Vikings
Baltimore Ravens
Houston Texans
Philadelphia Eagles
New England Patriots

Edit - Where you can check my facts if you feel the need.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2002

Clip and save

My assertion for a long time isnt that the Cards are cheap, or that they dont spend money -- its that they make poor personnel decisions.

Bill Sr is also so wary of outsiders, that it makes it difficult to hire really good people in the front office. You usually have to get someone who just wants the job, and is willing to put up with being put on a very short leash until he earns the old man's trust.

There is no correlation over any reasonable length of seasons between salary spent and wins. none.

 

[john h]

Time to put this to rest once and for all for everyone including the ones who think we are the cheapest thing to walk the earth.

Time to bust out some facts so no one can make any assumptions from here on out about how we spend.

Graves first 3 years here (2003-2005):

NFL's average total salary spent on players - $80,895,521
Cardinals average total salary spend on players - $78,845,145

So while we were not dead last, 20th actually, we were and still are below average. I dont have the total amounts for the other teams for 2006 yet but I do know we were right in the middle this year even with the Matt and Edge bonuses.

Also to get rid of another notion while I am at it. Philly and NE whom some have stated we follow their cap model. Both spent and avergae of 7 Mill more then we did. Meaning they got and paid for 7 Mill worth more of players each year over a 3 year period maiking it total of 21 mill more spend then we did between 2003-2005, without having to spend it on high draft picks. I wont even get into how much they spend more on coaches. But I digress.

Now here is the odd part. We actually spent more then average in the 3 years prior to Graves being here (2000-2002). In fact we actually spent more money on players salary in 2000 then any other team.

NFL's average total salary spent on players - $62,185,980
Cardinals average total salary spend on players - $66,823,281

That actually puts us in the top 10 in those 3 years.

So to summarize we are actually spending less then the league average on players salaries compared to the rest of the league during Graves/Mikey control(or what ever control he has, we still dont know yet) but spending more then the average before they took control. And we are not following the NE and Philly model.

But while we are under average during the Graves/Mike era we arent even close to being dead last like a lot of poeple think we are. We are close to dead last in coaching salaries but not what we pay for players. So we arent nearly as cheap as some would lead you to believe. And this is only an answer to what has been spent. I didnt do any coorelations between how teams spend and if they have a history of winning over that time frame.

The top 10 teams in salary spent from 2003 to 2005 are in order -

Seattle Seahawks
Washington Redskins
Atlanta Falcons
New Orleans Saints
Minnesota Vikings
Baltimore Ravens
Houston Texans
Philadelphia Eagles
New England Patriots

Edit - Where you can check my facts if you feel the need.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2002

Some other factors that should go into this equation as far as the Cards are concerned: 1. We had the worst stadium for fan comfort in the NFL since they moved to Airizona. (2) Mr. Bidwill had some obsolete rules about how long and when to extend players contracts. (3) The Cards had the reputation as the worst run team in the NFL (4) The Cards had the worst record in the NFL. All this combines to mean we cannot attract quality free agents and the good players we had tended to leave as soon as they could. Right or wrong they had a reputation of being cheap. All this is one giant hurdle to leap and cannot be done in one bound. How many HC's have we had since Cowher in Pittsburg has been there (15 years)? I cannot even remember them all.

 

[Covert Rain]

I guess you're still living in the past. You need to add 6 digits to the year you are still living in. It's 2007, not 2001.

Still living in the past?? I was commenting on the state of things TODAY. Nothing has changed = hence..PRESENT. You need to stop drinking the coolaid and take off the rose colored glasses.

I want this team to win. I want this team to be good. However, this organization continues to make the same mistakes.

 

[Russ Smith]

When I say Salaries paid out that means all money paid to players in any given year. Meaning it includes everything, signing bonus, base, and so on.

In usa todays way of thinking Salary=payroll.

Again it is all money paid to players in a given year. Which means the bonus we gave to Edge will be in the 2006 salary totals, but in the 2007 salary total only his base salary will be included becuase his bonus was already paid for in one check to edge during the 2006 season. Cap will spread that out over a time period. Salary counts it all in one season.

So it doesn't really factor out WHEN the money is paid?

In other words one of the big debates here in recent years has been that we
spend near the cap every year by extending players midseason, while the rest of the NFL does it by spending the money on FA's BEFORE the season.

So at the end of the year our total outlay is similar to theirs but the argument is we're always deferring money for next years FA class, and never actually using it on that because we just sign our own players.

 

[Sandan]

Even if they decide that Rod Graves was still the best guy after talking to a half-dozen people, it doesn't make sense to me that Michael Bidwill didn't think to pick a couple other guys' brains about the subject.

Then you should try listening to the video/audio again.

He said that's EXACTLY what he did do. He just didn't mention names.

 

[Sandan]

We are close to dead last in coaching salaries

Good post but where do you get this from ?

I understand the player analysis and it's interesting. I see no info on that link to support this assertion ?

 

[Wild Card]

The only problem is that there are only so many of those people around and most of them that are really good have jobs.

I don't know. There are--what--four billion people in the world? There are 32 GM positions available in the entire world in this sport? Don't you think that there might be a handful of people that could have made better decisions than you or I that the Arizona Cardinals might have just tried talking to?

K9:

Agreed. And not unlike hiring a head coach, sometimes you get a quality GM by offering a talented assistant his first chance at the top job. Sort of what the Seahawks did when they recruited Tim Ruskell away from Atlanta, where he had been the assistant GM (and the director of player personnel at Tampa Bay before that).

It sounded like 40YF was implying that hiring a GM is like musical chairs, and if you're left standing when all the good ones have jobs you're outta luck. My take is that management talent is coming up through the ranks all over the league, and the teams that are aggressively seeking that talent will find it. Those that aren't, won't.

WC

 

[joeshmo]

Good post but where do you get this from ?

I understand the player analysis and it's interesting. I see no info on that link to support this assertion ?

Read my answer to 40's same question.

I cant point you to a link. All I can say is that I know people. Just like you guys couldnt give all your info when you had press passes.

 

[Sandan]

Saw that after I posted response, I understand.

But assuming that is true it doesn't not mean DG wasn't given the ability to hire who he wanted to.

I can't imagine DG would have come here without without an aggrement on the procerss for hireing assistants. If he did then he was a fool, as would be any HC coming into any team.

These coaches may still have been his picks. In fact the Cardinals willingness to eat the salaries for fired coches suggest that the choices were Denny's

 

[40yearfan]

Still living in the past?? I was commenting on the state of things TODAY. Nothing has changed = hence..PRESENT. You need to stop drinking the coolaid and take off the rose colored glasses.

I want this team to win. I want this team to be good. However, this organization continues to make the same mistakes.

So you didn't read Joeshmo's post? I have no problem with you picking on the ownership, but you could at least get your facts right and learn how to spell the name right.

 

[kerouac9]

Then you should try listening to the video/audio again.

He said that's EXACTLY what he did do. He just didn't mention names.

Can you point to the portion on the presser when he said that? I've listened to the thing twice, and I think that it sounds like that he talked to people in the organization, but I didn't get the impression that he actually went out and interviewed other candidates, which is an entirely different thing.

I forget who it was for, but I remember a couple years ago one team was going through a HC search, and interviewed like 10 people, and it eventually got around that they were looking more for input into their organization and personnel from a dozen some overqualified people before they finalized a decision that had already been made long before.

EDIT: Nidan, I'm through the first two minutes of Michael's introduction, and after fumbling Rod Graves's name and introducing the extension, he hasn't said anything about talking to anyone outside the organization before re-signing Rod. He said that he looked at the assemblage of talent through the draft and free agency and decided to extend Graves for another three years. I'll keep listening, but if you have the quote, I'd love to hear it.

EDIT: Michael says around the 8 minute mark that "a number of the teams we talked to remarked at all the young players we have signed for the long term", but that has nothing to do with the actual objection I raised, which was that the Cardinals didn't even bother looking around for a better candidate than Graves. Is this the section that you're talking about?

EDIT: Around the 10:30 mark, Michael says that when they evaluated the roster and the position that the team was in at the end of the season, they found that Rod had one a "heckuva job". Still nothing about looking at outside candidates, more than halfway through.

EDIT: All right, here's the section I think you're talking about, around 12:40. Pay attention to it, because it sure sounds like Michael's talking about evaluating Denny, not Rod. The 13:00 mark is where a report says, "You two went through this process last time, what makes you think that doing it again will result in a better choice?" Michael says that they "learned a lot" after going through the process last time and they consulted with people "around the league, people inside the league, and people that used to be inside the league" and that he thinks they've learned a lot and that they're going to be successful. His statement--which I'm 99% sure you're alluding to--was directed solely at the head coaching search, not about evaluating whether or not there might be a guy better than Rod Graves.

 

[Sandan]

I thought I remember him saying that he had been listening to other opinions on the process.

I guess you interpret that to be internal, I thought he was talking about external.

 

[kerouac9]

All right, nidan. So Michael Bidwill said nothing of the sort at the Rod Graves extension presser. Thanks, though; that's 20 minutes of my life that I'll never get back again.

 

[kerouac9]

The HC search is very obviously what he's talking about there, not in looking for better candidates for GM, whic is exactly and obviously what I was saying.

 

[kerouac9]

And to think, if the Cardinals had waited another week, they would have been able to talk to Floyd Reese, who without saying is a million jillion times better than Rod Graves at his job.

 

[40yearfan]

And to think, if the Cardinals had waited another week, they would have been able to talk to Floyd Reese, who without saying is a million jillion times better than Rod Graves at his job.

K9, the last 3 years the Titans have had 17 wins and 31 losses. Looks like he hasn't done much better than Graves.

 

[Sandan]

I thought he did and it may be how you and I interpret what he said that is different

 

[kerouac9]

I thought he did and it may be how you and I interpret what he said that is different

Listen to the tape again, nidan. You said that he did EXACTLY what I recommended when reviewing Rod Graves' job performance and considering a new GM. It's pretty clear from the press conference that, if anything, Micahel Bidwill was talking about the hiring process for Denny, and maybe not even for the next HC.

I'll refer you to the same broadcast to which you refered me. If I'm misrepresenting anything at all, let me know.

 

[kerouac9]

K9, the last 3 years the Titans have had 17 wins and 31 losses. Looks like he hasn't done much better than Graves.

Um... okay, 40. He has done better than Graves during Graves' tenure, which has been 4 years. He also built a team that was a perennial playoff contender before the salary cap bit him, and then had a team that was playoff competitive into December despite playing in a more difficult conference. His team beat the Colts' starters, which was something that Rod Graves' team was unable to do against their backups.

Floyd Reese build a Super Bowl team. Rod Graves has built a team that has yet to notch 7 wins in a season. Why don't you make a poll and we'll see whom the board would prefer?

 

[40yearfan]

Um... okay, 40. He has done better than Graves during Graves' tenure, which has been 4 years. He also built a team that was a perennial playoff contender before the salary cap bit him, and then had a team that was playoff competitive into December despite playing in a more difficult conference. His team beat the Colts' starters, which was something that Rod Graves' team was unable to do against their backups.

Floyd Reese build a Super Bowl team. Rod Graves has built a team that has yet to notch 7 wins in a season. Why don't you make a poll and we'll see whom the board would prefer?

K9, did you not say that wins and losses were the only thing that matters? You do know that in the NFL as in most places, it's what have you done for me lately, not what did you do before. How do you know he hasn't lost his touch? Maybe he's getting too old. If the salary cap bit him was he spending with no thought for the future? That's not very smart.

Wouldn't it be fair to give Graves the same amount of time Reese has had?