Playoff my biggest concern - You won't like this.

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,216
Reaction score
53,632
Location
SoCal
As a season ticket holder me and my son show up early to watch warm ups. If you get the chance to go to a game, skip the beers and food and show up 90 mins early and watch NBA players shooting uncontested. Yes, they are being spotted with no movement, They are going through a routine too, and probably wearing headphones to reduce noise but almost an NBA player is going to drill a significant amount of threes.

1. Dario, drilling open threes
2. Payne, amazing in warm ups
3. Mikal was a pleasure to watch I never counted but the guy was 75 to 80 percent during pre game warm ups.

Ayton - well if you don't like him, he shows up takes a few dribbles (poorly) and does some spins and shots floaters from the free throw line for maybe 5 mins, then proceeds to launch half court granny shots for 15 minuets.

I can't wait to watch KD work pregame.
Your Ayton description is troubling. But seemingly on point for his still being a big goofy puppy dog. I wonder what has to happen to get him to eventually mature into a big dog.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,186
Reaction score
15,218
I am convinced Ayton just does not like basketball all that much.
I think that's probably accurate. My understanding is that his primary motivation for playing the game, if not his only motivation, was to earn financial security for his extended family. I don't think he hates the game, he just doesn't love it like so many gifted players do.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,809
Location
Arizona
Look at the volume our opponents have suckered okogie into taking. Yeesh.
I thought it was bad but not this bad. That seems to confirm they are going to dare our 3 point shooters to beat them. YIKES! Luckily this is only a 3 game sample size. Maybe we shoot better.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,216
Reaction score
53,632
Location
SoCal
Sheesh you’re still on about Josh’s first bad game in a month?! :p
He’s had two poor games in durants first 3.

And it’s not so much directed at okogie as it is at monty. It’s obvious teams want okogie to shoot instead of Durant, book or Ayton or even Paul. Monty is letting the opposition dictate where shots are coming from instead of pivoting to keep the shots coming from our best players.
 

nashman

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 3, 2007
Posts
10,551
Reaction score
7,263
Location
Queen Creek, AZ
He’s had two poor games in durants first 3.

And it’s not so much directed at okogie as it is at monty. It’s obvious teams want okogie to shoot instead of Durant, book or Ayton or even Paul. Monty is letting the opposition dictate where shots are coming from instead of pivoting to keep the shots coming from our best players.
Yes Monte has to counter with someone in that spot hitting shots to force the other team to adjust to us! If it’s clear JO is off like it was against Dallas if someone even gets to 0-5 you sub them and try someone else, Monte imo waited way to long to finally pull him, I mean honestly how many wide open shot do you let a role player brick before you realize he’s off tonight?
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
9,966
Reaction score
6,247
He’s had two poor games in durants first 3.

And it’s not so much directed at okogie as it is at monty. It’s obvious teams want okogie to shoot instead of Durant, book or Ayton or even Paul. Monty is letting the opposition dictate where shots are coming from instead of pivoting to keep the shots coming from our best players.
One of the two games you are referring to was a low volume game where he was 0-2 from 3. He has had two high volume 3 point performances. One he went 5-10 and one he went 0-8. Both are extremes and we will have to wait and see how it pans out over a decent sample of getting these wide open looks. My guess is he will settle on somewhere around 2-6 to 3-8 on average.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,216
Reaction score
53,632
Location
SoCal
One of the two games you are referring to was a low volume game where he was 0-2 from 3. He has had two high volume 3 point performances. One he went 5-10 and one he went 0-8. Both are extremes and we will have to wait and see how it pans out over a decent sample of getting these wide open looks. My guess is he will settle on somewhere around 2-6 to 3-8 on average.
That average still means we are okay with okogie taking 6-8 3s per game. Those also aren’t his only shots. Factoring in 1.5 turnovers per game and maybe 4-5 drives per game (he’s not shy), that means we are okay with 12-15 possessions per game ending in Josh’s hands. I’m not saying that’s good or bad (I don’t know the average for the fifth starter on most teams), but I’m thinking we want that number sub-10 to keep the shots coming from our better offensive players. I think it requires a tweaking of the offense if whomever is in that spot (virtually always our weakest player in the floor with Durant, book, Ayton and Paul) in the current offense is going to end up with the most open shots by the defense’s design.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
45,231
Reaction score
15,071
Location
Round Rock, TX
That average still means we are okay with okogie taking 6-8 3s per game. Those also aren’t his only shots. Factoring in 1.5 turnovers per game and maybe 4-5 drives per game (he’s not shy), that means we are okay with 12-15 possessions per game ending in Josh’s hands. I’m not saying that’s good or bad (I don’t know the average for the fifth starter on most teams), but I’m thinking we want that number sub-10 to keep the shots coming from our better offensive players. I think it requires a tweaking of the offense if whomever is in that spot (virtually always our weakest player in the floor with Durant, book, Ayton and Paul) in the current offense is going to end up with the most open shots by the defense’s design.
When playing with the big 4, the one shot that will always be there is that corner 3. What we need is a reliable shooter at that spot, but who can also play strong defense. Okogie checks one of those boxes. And it appears the only player who potentially can fit BOTH those requirements is Ish Wainwright, but how reliable can he really be? He did well in the previous game but didn’t come close to JO’s production in the previous month.

I will say that the more Ish practices that corner 3, the more likely he’ll get playing time. IMO he’s the biggest surprise of the season so far.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,216
Reaction score
53,632
Location
SoCal
When playing with the big 4, the one shot that will always be there is that corner 3. What we need is a reliable shooter at that spot, but who can also play strong defense. Okogie checks one of those boxes. And it appears the only player who potentially can fit BOTH those requirements is Ish Wainwright, but how reliable can he really be? He did well in the previous game but didn’t come close to JO’s production in the previous month.

I will say that the more Ish practices that corner 3, the more likely he’ll get playing time. IMO he’s the biggest surprise of the season so far.
You’re right in all that. But that’s also a result of how our offense is built. Somehow we don’t force the worst offensive player on our opponents to take that many shots (or perhaps we do and I’m just not aware of it generally), so there’s obviously likely a way to scheme around it.

As for that fifth spot, I think everyone forgot damion Lee because of his funk. His last couple of games he looks like he’s outta the shooting slump. Let’s not forget he was the best 3 pointer shooter in the league through much of the season. Is he a great defender? No. But it’s not for lack of effort. He plays hard. Mind you I’m not stumping for him, but rather I’d like to see monty have a bit of a shorter hook. Dude misses three 3s in short succession and they aren’t close (like okogie in the Dallas game), send in Craig, Lee or ish a bit earlier. Doesn’t mean you can’t come back to okogie. But identify the hot hand earlier if you can. Maybe some time sitting let’s the other player find their shot. But no more 0-8.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,809
Location
Arizona
You’re right in all that. But that’s also a result of how our offense is built. Somehow we don’t force the worst offensive player on our opponents to take that many shots (or perhaps we do and I’m just not aware of it generally), so there’s obviously likely a way to scheme around it.

As for that fifth spot, I think everyone forgot damion Lee because of his funk. His last couple of games he looks like he’s outta the shooting slump. Let’s not forget he was the best 3 pointer shooter in the league through much of the season. Is he a great defender? No. But it’s not for lack of effort. He plays hard. Mind you I’m not stumping for him, but rather I’d like to see monty have a bit of a shorter hook. Dude misses three 3s in short succession and they aren’t close (like okogie in the Dallas game), send in Craig, Lee or ish a bit earlier. Doesn’t mean you can’t come back to okogie. But identify the hot hand earlier if you can. Maybe some time sitting let’s the other player find their shot. But no more 0-8.
Okogie is a dirt worker. Love his energy but we need his shooting too. I hope he snaps back. These next few games are probably going to determine if he stays in the starting 5 IMO. I guess Monty can leave him in there for his defense and just have a quick hook if his shooting isn't there.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
21,768
Reaction score
6,162
You’re right in all that. But that’s also a result of how our offense is built. Somehow we don’t force the worst offensive player on our opponents to take that many shots (or perhaps we do and I’m just not aware of it generally), so there’s obviously likely a way to scheme around it.

As for that fifth spot, I think everyone forgot damion Lee because of his funk. His last couple of games he looks like he’s outta the shooting slump. Let’s not forget he was the best 3 pointer shooter in the league through much of the season. Is he a great defender? No. But it’s not for lack of effort. He plays hard. Mind you I’m not stumping for him, but rather I’d like to see monty have a bit of a shorter hook. Dude misses three 3s in short succession and they aren’t close (like okogie in the Dallas game), send in Craig, Lee or ish a bit earlier. Doesn’t mean you can’t come back to okogie. But identify the hot hand earlier if you can. Maybe some time sitting let’s the other player find their shot. But no more 0-8.
Lee, Okogie, Craig, even Warren. There are a lot of options at that spot depending on what the defense gives us.

What we need is a Cam Johnson type of shooter at that spot.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
9,966
Reaction score
6,247
Continuing to peruse the NBA site and for the year Okogie has gotten 105 wide open threes and has made 37% of them. Craig 107 and 39% and Damien Lee 156 for 50% (how do teams keep leaving this open?). BTW that is by far the most wide open threes Okogie has gotten in an NBA season (per game at least). Lee seems like a no brainer for when Okogie is bricking early.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
21,768
Reaction score
6,162
Continuing to peruse the NBA site and for the year Okogie has gotten 105 wide open threes and has made 37% of them. Craig 107 and 39% and Damien Lee 156 for 50% (how do teams keep leaving this open?). BTW that is by far the most wide open threes Okogie has gotten in an NBA season (per game at least). Lee seems like a no brainer for when Okogie is bricking early.
Can we just squish Okogie and Lee together into one player and go with that guy?
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,272
Reaction score
62,691
Can we just squish Okogie and Lee together into one player and go with that guy?
That guy would be an All-Star… possibly all NBA level player considering how great Okogie’s defense is.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
9,966
Reaction score
6,247
Nope, TC is the obvious replacement. Lee has been cold for months and is a negative on D!
I don't mean to start, but to sub in when the shots just aren't falling. Damien Lee is shooting 50% on wide open threes this year.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,883
Reaction score
10,764
I don't mind Okogie's quick trigger from 3, although he shot a few highly contested ones against Dallas, but he needs a hard stop on his "drive the lane and attack 3 defenders". He does it 2 or 3 times a game and they're a total waste.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
12,252
Reaction score
9,949
If Okogie can make 30% on 3's the Suns will be fine.

If he makes 40% then Suns will sweep the playoffs.

If he makes 20% they should bench him for Lee, Shamet or Craig. Ross and Warren suck too much on defense. I don't know what to make of Ish, he's very inconsistent.
He will absolutely do better than 30%.

But I think you are over estimating his 3 point shooting importance. If he really goes into a slump he doesn't have to take the 3, he is still going to be able to drive if he is left wide open and get fouled or pass it back out. Afterall the best thing about Durant is he can shoot over anyone so he's never really covered.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
12,252
Reaction score
9,949
I am convinced Ayton just does not like basketball all that much.
I see no evidence of that. In fact I have heard he is one of the guys who shows up to the facility early to get extra practice.

He is not an aggressive offensive player and that is extremely annoying as a Suns fan. But mind reading is not really useful.
 
Top