Our young guys?

[Krangodnzr]

Maybe, just maybe, we might be able to get more of a pass rush from our own youngsters.

1. Dennis Johnson. Showed a little bit of talent at the end of the season, and is a better athlete than Wakefield and might start over him if we can't add anyone else. He has the natural football ability, and the football smarts that come from being a coaches son. If he is working hard this offseason, he may be ready to give us a little production.

2. Ray Thompson. I was wondering when we didn't sign Colvin if Thompson could be our "Colvin". At the end of the season we were bringing him on the blitz a lot more, and he looked like he could be productive in that capacity. He is actually better than Colvin in the "other" areas of linebacking, and maybe we just need to blitz him regularly.

3. Wendell Bryant. An outstanding athlete for a tackle, he was really at a disadvantage missing all of camp. He has the type of natural ability that could make him a top ten tackle, but he does need to put in a lot of work. He needs to get stronger, bigger, and learn the defense better. If he works hard this offseason, he could be in for a real nice season.

4. KVB. Vanden Bosch has been basically injured the entire time we've had him, as well as playing the wrong position. If we could find a pure rusher to play his position, it would benefit him to go against the less athletic right tackles of the league. He can't effectively go against left tackles, and shouldn't. He would be an effective, if not good LDE, but someone needs to step up and push hiim there....hopefully, as it stands now, that guy will be DJ.

5. Alton Moore. The dark horse of our young defenders. The guy runs around a 4.6. He showed nice ability early in the preseason before injuring himself. If he hasn't lost any of that speed, and can come back from his injury, this guy could be the pure pass rusher that we are looking for. It would be nice to see what he can do on third downs lined up at RDE...

Others to consider.

1. Levar Fisher. He will be a very good player, if he can stay healthy, but his pass rush ability is a bit of an unknown. On KDUS the other day, one of the radio guys said he is bulking up and getting stronger (same for Adrian Wilson). Hopefully the guy can stay healthy, because he would be a huge player for our defense.

2. Marcus Bell. He looks like a player at times, but he always seems to be a second late. Maybe he will blossom this year, but I don't really think so. He looks like he is destined to be a career backup.


What does this list tell us? I'm not to sure, but what it tells me: There is plenty of potential among these seven young defenders, but we need a vet pass rusher to solidify our pass rush. If we are stuck addressing the pass rush through the draft only, we won't have an improved pass rush.

 

[pinnacle]

I was trying to make myself feel better about our horrible pass rush..and I posted this on dennis johnson yesterday..it was done prior to last years draft..

..:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fo...yers/99588.html

Dennis Johnson | DE | Kentucky | Southeastern Conference
Selected by Arizona Cardinals in round 3, pick 33 (98 overall)
Height Weight 40 Grade
6'4½ 258 4.83 3.79

Chris Covata/Getty Images

Three-year starter that moved in with the first unit midway through his freshman campaign. Productive as a redshirt junior leading the conference in tackles for loss and sacks totaling 61/19/12. Sprained an ankle during the first game of the 2000 seasons which forced him to sit out the year. Second team All-Conference selection as a true sophomore when he totaled 39/11/5 after 26/5/2 his first-year in the program. Performed terribly at the combine looking out of shape and not ready to work out.
Gifted athlete that causes a lot of disruption behind the line of scrimmage. Quick off the snap, plays with excellent forward lean, leverage and consistently focused on by opponents. Moves well laterally, pursues to the ballcarrier with speed and rarely off his feet. Fast rushing the edge, displays some strength at the point of attack and a closing burst of speed bearing down on ball carriers. Quickly changes his angle of attack and get to the action. Displays some discipline but for the most part not an instinctive football player and slow finding the ball. Lacks the great body control, gets tall and lets opponents inside of him. All to often neutralized at the point of attack when he should be up the field making plays. Flashes on the scene to terrorize opponents but then disappears for stretches. About to learn the hard facts; has relied on his God given abilities but must get into the weight room and apply himself or he'll have great difficulties at the next level. Should have stayed in school one more season and proved 2001 was not the exception to the rule. Will still be highly sought out in April as he is a player that easily gets up the field to the quarterback, which is a commodity. Early to mid Second Round.

 

[40yearfan]

Krang----are you saying that we should get a FA to fill the bill and not draft Suggs (if available) for the DE position? Maybe not a bad idea. Suggs availability at the #6 spot is highly questionable, so if not Suggs, would you go for a WR?

 

[Zeno]

I think the big question is do you have enough faith in our coaching staff to judge talent and develop these young players?

I can honestly say I don't--until they prove me otherwise.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Zeno
I think the big question is do you have enough faith in our coaching staff to judge talent and develop these young players?

I can honestly say I don't--until they prove me otherwise.

Well, I don't blindly follow what the coaches say or do, I observe things for myself. Everything I wrote I saw first hand. If anything I would question their ability to coach, but these guys are guys I like and I think they could be a nice nucleus of young defenders.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by 40yearfan
Krang----are you saying that we should get a FA to fill the bill and not draft Suggs (if available) for the DE position? Maybe not a bad idea. Suggs availability at the #6 spot is highly questionable, so if not Suggs, would you go for a WR?

If we take a DE with our first pick, I honestly think it will be a reach (implying that I don't think Suggs will be available). There isn't an end in the draft other than Suggs that is worthy of the 6th pick. Jerome McDougal is the next best thing, but not 6th pick material. I would love for the team to trade down and stockpile picks, and that isn't going to happen (ask Nidan about that! )

I think our best bet right now, would be to add a skill player, whether that's a cornerback (Newman) or a receiver (Andre Johnson). Now if they go DL, I think our best option will be Dewayne Robertson....but from the latest indication (resigning Davis) I think we won't draft a DT.

One option that will be out there after June 1: Tony Brackens.
If he can get healthy (major questionmark there), he could be that big time end that we are looking for. He isn't that old and he can really get after the quaterback.

 

[Cardiac]

Krang

I almost totally agree with your post(s).

We do have young talent on this team that may develop. At least a couple of the players you mentioned will step up, simply based on the odds that they can't have all realized their full potential at this point.

I like the idea of getting Brackens if the draft doesn't fall our way for drafting a DE in rds 1 or 2. Brackens doesn't have to start, just be the pass rushing specialist this team desperately needs.

I'm hoping and praying that the Cards don't draft a WR in rd 1. Actually if they pick a WR before rd 4 that would bum me out. The reason being the same thing you posted about the teams LB's and DE's, except I have more faith in the WR's potential then I do on the defensive side of the ball.

If the Cards don't resign Jenkins or Sanders or pick up a vet FA like Conway then they will need to draft a WR on day one.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Krang

Originally posted by Cardiac
I almost totally agree with your post(s).

We do have young talent on this team that may develop. At least a couple of the players you mentioned will step up, simply based on the odds that they can't have all realized their full potential at this point.

I like the idea of getting Brackens if the draft doesn't fall our way for drafting a DE in rds 1 or 2. Brackens doesn't have to start, just be the pass rushing specialist this team desperately needs.

I'm hoping and praying that the Cards don't draft a WR in rd 1. Actually if they pick a WR before rd 4 that would bum me out. The reason being the same thing you posted about the teams LB's and DE's, except I have more faith in the WR's potential then I do on the defensive side of the ball.

If the Cards don't resign Jenkins or Sanders or pick up a vet FA like Conway then they will need to draft a WR on day one.

See with the wide receivers, the only one who really has a lot of potential is McAddley. The rest could be ok receivers, but not the type of players that can carry an offense.

I think exactly the opposite. If we don't get at least a good prospect on day one, or at worst early day two, I will be a little upset. A few receivers that I would be interested in (mind you I don't remember all the combine numbers, so some of these guys might not be top prospects):

1. Andre Johnson. The guy has all of the required physical ability. Size/speed/strength guy in the David Boston mold. I really wonder how much better his numbers would be if he played with a better QB (Dorsey is terrible) and in a passing oriented offense (Miami was more run first).

2. Kelley Washington. Similar to Johnson, but not as big or fast, but he seems a little more physical. Has injury concerns, as well as character concerns. He would be a nice pick in round 2.

3. Taylor Jacobs. He is more of a speed guy, and would be a nice young target for Blake. Played at Florida, which makes him a more cranial receiver (Florida receivers are given a lot of defense reading assignments).

4. Tyrone Talico. A bigtime Sleeper from Middle Tennessee State. He is a lot like Andre Johnson athletically (and David Boston), but is more of an unknown. He played in a run oriented offense, so he doesn't have great numbers. I haven't seen him play, but he would give us a guy for Tyke Tolbert and Master Sullivan to develop with McAddley. He is the guy that if we don't use a high pick, I would love for us to snag him, but I have a feeling that he will be gone in round 2 (like Tim Carter did last year).

5. Bryant Johnson. A big physical possesion receiver. I love his size, and he played at a big time program (Penn. State). He would be a coup in round 3, but probably will be gone in round 2 depending on his combine numbers.

6. Bobby Wade. My homer pick (even though I am a Sun Devil). I went to high school with the guy. He is not a great athlete, but he is a great football player. He has great versatility (UofA was talking of playing him as a defensive back and he could conceivably play defense), could help on offense and special teams. Great hands, shifty, reminds some of Dennis Northcutt who is coming into his own with the Browns.

 

[Cardiac]

Re: Re: Krang

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
See with the wide receivers, the only one who really has a lot of potential is McAddley. The rest could be ok receivers, but not the type of players that can carry an offense.

I think exactly the opposite. If we don't get at least a good prospect on day one, or at worst early day two, I will be a little upset. A few receivers that I would be interested in (mind you I don't remember all the combine numbers, so some of these guys might not be top prospects):

1. Andre Johnson. The guy has all of the required physical ability. Size/speed/strength guy in the David Boston mold. I really wonder how much better his numbers would be if he played with a better QB (Dorsey is terrible) and in a passing oriented offense (Miami was more run first).

2. Kelley Washington. Similar to Johnson, but not as big or fast, but he seems a little more physical. Has injury concerns, as well as character concerns. He would be a nice pick in round 2.

3. Taylor Jacobs. He is more of a speed guy, and would be a nice young target for Blake. Played at Florida, which makes him a more cranial receiver (Florida receivers are given a lot of defense reading assignments).

4. Tyrone Talico. A bigtime Sleeper from Middle Tennessee State. He is a lot like Andre Johnson athletically (and David Boston), but is more of an unknown. He played in a run oriented offense, so he doesn't have great numbers. I haven't seen him play, but he would give us a guy for Tyke Tolbert and Master Sullivan to develop with McAddley. He is the guy that if we don't use a high pick, I would love for us to snag him, but I have a feeling that he will be gone in round 2 (like Tim Carter did last year).

5. Bryant Johnson. A big physical possesion receiver. I love his size, and he played at a big time program (Penn. State). He would be a coup in round 3, but probably will be gone in round 2 depending on his combine numbers.

6. Bobby Wade. My homer pick (even though I am a Sun Devil). I went to high school with the guy. He is not a great athlete, but he is a great football player. He has great versatility (UofA was talking of playing him as a defensive back and he could conceivably play defense), could help on offense and special teams. Great hands, shifty, reminds some of Dennis Northcutt who is coming into his own with the Browns.

I think that Gilmore has a lot of potential as well. Sully has been quoted several times about how good Gilmore will be. I agree that McAddley is going to be good to very good. We were all very pleased with Kasper's performance last year. Sanders would provide good leadership and is a good possesion WR. Jenkins keeps improving every year, maybe he breaks out in 03.

I've made this statement before but I'm not sure if you have read or responded to it.

The Broncos don't draft RB's or OL in rd 1 and rarely on day 1. They feel they have a knack for finding diamonds in the rough and the ability to coach them up to be quality players. I think the same thing applies to the Cards in regards to WR's. Sully is the master of developing talent at this position and in every draft big fast WR's fall to rounds 4 thru 7. These rounds are where a team needs to make hay to be a long term contender. Our draft picks rarely make an impact in these rds at the following positions: DE, LB, O-line, FB, TE, DT etc. So draft these positions earlier in the draft where there is less guess work and a better chance of success. Save the later rds for positions where we can get great value. Right now this is at the WR position.

Another point is that the Cards are set up to be a running team. Big O-line, a great blocking FB (finally), a great move the chains RB and a mix of TE's who can block and catch the ball. Now we have added a QB who throws a beautiful long ball and a group of WR's that have a ton of speed to stretch the field. Play action passes will actually be a weapon now and the offense should put up some big plays via the pass to keep defenses honest. A stud WR has become more of a luxury then a need. IMHO.

So the Cards should draft a big fast WR in rd's 4 thru 7 who needs developing on route running etc and let Sully and Tolbert work their magic.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Krang

Originally posted by Cardiac
I think that Gilmore has a lot of potential as well. Sully has been quoted several times about how good Gilmore will be. I agree that McAddley is going to be good to very good. We were all very pleased with Kasper's performance last year. Sanders would provide good leadership and is a good possesion WR. Jenkins keeps improving every year, maybe he breaks out in 03.

I've made this statement before but I'm not sure if you have read or responded to it.

The Broncos don't draft RB's or OL in rd 1 and rarely on day 1. They feel they have a knack for finding diamonds in the rough and the ability to coach them up to be quality players. I think the same thing applies to the Cards in regards to WR's. Sully is the master of developing talent at this position and in every draft big fast WR's fall to rounds 4 thru 7. These rounds are where a team needs to make hay to be a long term contender. Our draft picks rarely make an impact in these rds at the following positions: DE, LB, O-line, FB, TE, DT etc. So draft these positions earlier in the draft where there is less guess work and a better chance of success. Save the later rds for positions where we can get great value. Right now this is at the WR position.

Another point is that the Cards are set up to be a running team. Big O-line, a great blocking FB (finally), a great move the chains RB and a mix of TE's who can block and catch the ball. Now we have added a QB who throws a beautiful long ball and a group of WR's that have a ton of speed to stretch the field. Play action passes will actually be a weapon now and the offense should put up some big plays via the pass to keep defenses honest. A stud WR has become more of a luxury then a need. IMHO.

So the Cards should draft a big fast WR in rd's 4 thru 7 who needs developing on route running etc and let Sully and Tolbert work their magic.

The one argument that I could easily give from what you said: Sullivan isn't going to be working with the receivers as much. And a lot of the better receiving talent will be gone after round 3.

Sullivan is a great coach, but far from a miracle worker. Everyone of the receivers you mentioned is far from an answer. They are all still questionmarks. And if we have the chance to add a young, underdeveloped receiver (ahem....Tyrone Talico) to the corp that we already have, it would give Tolbert and Sullivan a guy to mold into a top flight wideout.

I have mixed emotions about using our top pick on a receiver, though Tolbert and Sullivan could help him develop fast....we might as well use our first on something else, and use a 2 or 3 to get a guy that has top talent, but needs work. After round 3 the guys will have more questionmarks, thus less chance of being great. I do understand your point, I just think we need a top talent, not a full project.

 

[Cardiac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Krang

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The one argument that I could easily give from what you said: Sullivan isn't going to be working with the receivers as much. And a lot of the better receiving talent will be gone after round 3.

Sullivan is a great coach, but far from a miracle worker. Everyone of the receivers you mentioned is far from an answer. They are all still questionmarks. And if we have the chance to add a young, underdeveloped receiver (ahem....Tyrone Talico) to the corp that we already have, it would give Tolbert and Sullivan a guy to mold into a top flight wideout.

I have mixed emotions about using our top pick on a receiver, though Tolbert and Sullivan could help him develop fast....we might as well use our first on something else, and use a 2 or 3 to get a guy that has top talent, but needs work. After round 3 the guys will have more questionmarks, thus less chance of being great. I do understand your point, I just think we need a top talent, not a full project.

If the Cards can get some more holes filled on the defensive side of the ball and the best value is at WR then picking one in rds 2 or 3 is okay. I just think that we have bigger needs at DE, DT, SLB, CB and C. If one there is no quality / value at these positions when the Cards are on the clock and there is great value at WR then yes, draft the WR.

RD 1 - great value will still be there at one of these positions QB, DT, CB.

RD 2 Great value should still be there at one of these positions DE, QB, DT, C, CB, SLB.

RD 3 Great value may still be there at DE, CB, C and SLB.

RD 4 This is where BPA available really should come into play for the Cards.

I'm off to work so I'll respond later on.

Thanks for the good debate.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Maybe, just maybe, we might be able to get more of a pass rush from our own youngsters.

1. Dennis Johnson. Showed a little bit of talent at the end of the season, and is a better athlete than Wakefield and might start over him if we can't add anyone else. He has the natural football ability, and the football smarts that come from being a coaches son. If he is working hard this offseason, he may be ready to give us a little production.

2. Ray Thompson. I was wondering when we didn't sign Colvin if Thompson could be our "Colvin". At the end of the season we were bringing him on the blitz a lot more, and he looked like he could be productive in that capacity. He is actually better than Colvin in the "other" areas of linebacking, and maybe we just need to blitz him regularly.

3. Wendell Bryant. An outstanding athlete for a tackle, he was really at a disadvantage missing all of camp. He has the type of natural ability that could make him a top ten tackle, but he does need to put in a lot of work. He needs to get stronger, bigger, and learn the defense better. If he works hard this offseason, he could be in for a real nice season.

4. KVB. Vanden Bosch has been basically injured the entire time we've had him, as well as playing the wrong position. If we could find a pure rusher to play his position, it would benefit him to go against the less athletic right tackles of the league. He can't effectively go against left tackles, and shouldn't. He would be an effective, if not good LDE, but someone needs to step up and push hiim there....hopefully, as it stands now, that guy will be DJ.

5. Alton Moore. The dark horse of our young defenders. The guy runs around a 4.6. He showed nice ability early in the preseason before injuring himself. If he hasn't lost any of that speed, and can come back from his injury, this guy could be the pure pass rusher that we are looking for. It would be nice to see what he can do on third downs lined up at RDE...

Others to consider.

1. Levar Fisher. He will be a very good player, if he can stay healthy, but his pass rush ability is a bit of an unknown. On KDUS the other day, one of the radio guys said he is bulking up and getting stronger (same for Adrian Wilson). Hopefully the guy can stay healthy, because he would be a huge player for our defense.

2. Marcus Bell. He looks like a player at times, but he always seems to be a second late. Maybe he will blossom this year, but I don't really think so. He looks like he is destined to be a career backup.


What does this list tell us? I'm not to sure, but what it tells me: There is plenty of potential among these seven young defenders, but we need a vet pass rusher to solidify our pass rush. If we are stuck addressing the pass rush through the draft only, we won't have an improved pass rush.

Overall, pretty good. The Cards may have some diamonds in the rough here and hopefully they will develop nicely.

I do have to disagree with point 2. As much as I like Thompson, he is nowhere close to the player Colvin is. In fact, I find it hard to even classify them the same way. Thompson has speed but he is too small to play DE...which is what Colvin did in passing situations. Sure, he can be blitzed but I would have rather had a terror DE in Colvin then blitz Thompson on top of that. I think he can and should be allowed to pick up some of the sacks. Thompson may be a slightly better LB but falls short of Colvin as a DE...and since pass rush is needed more than LBs IMO, this isn't the fix I would prefer.

Brackens could fit the DE bill which would allow Thompson to be used as a blitzing type guy although I am not sold on Brackens...injured too often.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Krang

Originally posted by Cardiac
If the Cards can get some more holes filled on the defensive side of the ball and the best value is at WR then picking one in rds 2 or 3 is okay. I just think that we have bigger needs at DE, DT, SLB, CB and C. If one there is no quality / value at these positions when the Cards are on the clock and there is great value at WR then yes, draft the WR.

RD 1 - great value will still be there at one of these positions QB, DT, CB.

RD 2 Great value should still be there at one of these positions DE, QB, DT, C, CB, SLB.

RD 3 Great value may still be there at DE, CB, C and SLB.

RD 4 This is where BPA available really should come into play for the Cards.

I'm off to work so I'll respond later on.

Thanks for the good debate.

But after the top round of the draft, the second tier is pretty weak, and the third tier of receivers is very weak.

If we want a wideout at all, we've got to pick one on day one.

IMO, rounds 2-3-4 are a great place to pick a wideout for us. Our biggest weakness, other than DE, is wideout hands down. The best guy on our roster right now, Jason McAddley has like 24 career receptions....not very encouraging...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Our young guys?

Originally posted by AZCB34
Overall, pretty good. The Cards may have some diamonds in the rough here and hopefully they will develop nicely.

I do have to disagree with point 2. As much as I like Thompson, he is nowhere close to the player Colvin is. In fact, I find it hard to even classify them the same way. Thompson has speed but he is too small to play DE...which is what Colvin did in passing situations. Sure, he can be blitzed but I would have rather had a terror DE in Colvin then blitz Thompson on top of that. I think he can and should be allowed to pick up some of the sacks. Thompson may be a slightly better LB but falls short of Colvin as a DE...and since pass rush is needed more than LBs IMO, this isn't the fix I would prefer.

Brackens could fit the DE bill which would allow Thompson to be used as a blitzing type guy although I am not sold on Brackens...injured too often.

Oh no, I didn't mean to play him in a three point, I meant that we should blitz him bigtime (in a two point stance). I honestly think he could get, in the very least, 5 sacks next year, which will help.

I'm not sold on Brackens either, but he could be a find if he can stay healthy (which is a big "if").

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Our young guys?

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Oh no, I didn't mean to play him in a three point, I meant that we should blitz him bigtime (in a two point stance). I honestly think he could get, in the very least, 5 sacks next year, which will help.

I'm not sold on Brackens either, but he could be a find if he can stay healthy (which is a big "if").

I want pressure from the front four so the Cards CAN drop 7 into coverage when they want to. If you start alot of blitzing, you do open the door to bad things happening...as well as good. If you can get big pressure from your front 4, then you have alot more options. I kind of felt like having Colvin and Thompson rushing the passer would be a deadly combo. Holliday (who I don't think will sign with AZ...I voted for him returning to GB tail between his legs) and Thompson could be effective but not as potent. Given the right circumstances, Thompson could put up 7-9 sacks per year IMO. But if the Cards are relying solely on him...Yikes.

One thing that is pretty clear and that is the Cards will not get a crack at Suggs (who I am skeptical aboput anyway) without trading up...which would be the dumbest thing they could do since...well since letting Boston go with no compensation. You said in another thread that Suggs would go #1 overall and you know what...I think that is a very real possibility. The Cards need to stand pat and take whomever falls to them or if need be, reach a bit for a defensive player.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Krang, I have to say, I think your original post is the best one I've ever seen you post here.

You brought up some very good points to ponder.