OT: The GOAT Debate

[Dan H]

Maybe it’s just a sign that I’m getting old, but I increasingly am more and more annoyed by all these younger sports fans and podcasters putting LeBron on a pedestal above Jordan.

My take: reverse the positions. Jordan would feast if he played in the league today. No hand checking? No Knicks or Pistons beating the crap out of him?

LeBron in the 90’s? Still a very good player. But he’s never faced those kind of defenses or physicality.

Am I crazy?

 

[Dback Jon]

This is a situation where it is hard for me to pick a definitive GOAT, especially from different playing periods where the style has changed.

Much easier to pick a GOAT for an era and leave it at that.

And, Kareem and Bill Russell need to be in the discussion as well, IMHO

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

I support the position that 1980s Celtics legend Robert Parish stated in this article: https://www.hoopshype.com/story/spo...ing-anyone-the-goat-is-blasphemy/89281912007/ . That the "GOAT" is...nobody; that "Nobody is better than everybody else that ever played in the NBA." (Although he got a bit silly, by calling it "blasphemy.")

My thought: someone will always be thought better than the last "GOAT." And for every great player, there were great players before him and there will be great players after.

Also, Kobe Bryant and lebron james both gamed the system by playing much, much longer than Michael Jordan. They padded their stats. That is why one needs to not take career numbers seriously unless they are weighted to the average career length.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just an observation. Many of the younger fans have never seen Michael Jordan play in a live game.

 

[Adrian]

Yeah. Us kids that were born in the early 80s are getting old now.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

jordan never left chicago to win a ring - built different

 

[Lorenzo]

I think GOAT is now more ambiguous than it ever was. but the LeBron and MJ debate is nothing new. I can't recall an American athlete that has had more global popularity than MJ. He is the first basketball player that I was aware of back in 1989. that was before I was even a basketball fan. MJ was different. Larger than Life in some ways. LeBron sort of filled the gap that existed after MJ left in 98. MJ was missed and I think LeBron ushered in a new era where he was like the next GOAT, but he also played in an era with a lot of great players. now we have unicorns coming from Europe. Dirk is my favorite Dallas athlete of all time and really showed the impact that you can have on a fanbase by staying with one team. I think Dirk learned that quality from MJ. LeBron lost my respect when he went to Miami. But gained it back over time.

 

[Shane]

MJ no question about it

 

[Lorenzo]

Just an observation. Many of the younger fans have never seen Michael Jordan play in a live game.

I used to hate the bulls, but would watch just to see if they would lose. I don't even remember when they got eliminated in the gap years in the mid 90's. When MJ wasn't there, I stopped watching. he really was a must watch. I just think about the bulls now. it's almost like they are nothing since Jordan left. The lakers, heat, and to some degree the Cavs, really aren't going to miss lebron. the league will miss him.

 

[TJ]

The definitive order is

1) MJ
2) LeBron

 

[Dan H]

I support the position that 1980s Celtics legend Robert Parish stated in this article: https://www.hoopshype.com/story/spo...ing-anyone-the-goat-is-blasphemy/89281912007/ . That the "GOAT" is...nobody; that "Nobody is better than everybody else that ever played in the NBA." (Although he got a bit silly, by calling it "blasphemy.")

My thought: someone will always be thought better than the last "GOAT." And for every great player, there were great players before him and there will be great players after.

Also, Kobe Bryant and lebron james both gamed the system by playing much, much longer than Michael Jordan. They padded their stats. That is why one needs to not take career numbers seriously unless they are weighted to the average career length.

If not for baseball, Jordan might very well have won eight or nine titles in a row.

 

[Dback Jon]

If not for baseball, Jordan might very well have won eight or nine titles in a row.

Baseball or Gambling?

 

[Brian in Mesa]

If not for baseball, Jordan might very well have won eight or nine titles in a row.

I think you meant to say - if not for a sweetheart fake retirement (AKA baseball) to fulfill a suspension for his gambling issues - Jordan might have won more consecutive titles.

 

[SirStefan32]

Lebron is a freak of nature, but he is not even close to Jordan. I'd say that Kobe is probably closer to LeBron than LeBron is to MJ.

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

The reason I stay out of Michael Jordan discussions, and *goat discussions, is because I don't care. Michael Jordan's basketball accomplishments don't interest me. To win, Michael Jordan made a Faustian bargain--with his own ego. He fed his ego with the victories and popularity, and his ego fed him by helping him win more. It wasn't worth it--the human cost. Assaulting teammates for not playing as hard as him; wasting huge amounts of money on gambling and petty bets when people are starving; using his HOF acceptance speech to rage against his basketball enemies, despite having been away from them for years. I have no idea why the first Mrs. Jordan divorced him, but might her husband's ego and arrogance have contributed? Might she have tired of him having to win every argument? The issue is much more interesting to me than anything he did in basketball.

As for lebron james: With that obnoxious "taking my talents to South Beach" statement, he forfeited any chance at being respected for character by people who don't know him; then he forfeited any chance to gain it back, by hopping teams yet again. He is a nobody to me and also a bore, less interesting as a person than either Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

Bryant seemed a more complex character than either of them; but this thread hasn't been talking about Kobe Bryant.

With every single NBA legend or even non-legend I can think of who significantly interests me, it's for a reason other than basketball.

*Yes--"goat," not "GOAT." From this point, I'm calling it the goat debate to demonstrate my lack of regard for it.

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

For those who think my view of Michael Jordan is too one-sided, let me mention what I respect about him.

Jordan was an excellent example of how players from *his generation were more manly than today's players. All his particular faults and character weaknesses, were of a quite masculine type. I was intellectually amused to hear that he likes watching old Westerns before he goes to sleep--of course he would.

*(Yes, Michael Jordan technically is a boomer, having been born in 1963, shortly before the boom generation is usually considered over.)

 

[Proximo]

Maybe it’s just a sign that I’m getting old, but I increasingly am more and more annoyed by all these younger sports fans and podcasters putting LeBron on a pedestal above Jordan.

My take: reverse the positions. Jordan would feast if he played in the league today. No hand checking? No Knicks or Pistons beating the crap out of him?

LeBron in the 90’s? Still a very good player. But he’s never faced those kind of defenses or physicality.

Am I crazy?

No. There is no debate. It is MJ and it's not close.

It is a stupid ratings grab for the ignorant.

 

[TRW]

I agree with previous comments that referenced eras. In his era Bill Russell was GOAT. But I would say the best I ever saw was MJ. Labron is a freak and Kobe was tenacious but MJ transcends both IMO.

 

[Proximo]

I know this is going to get hate - but personally I think Jokic is a better player than Lebron ever was. If we weren't all so consumed about number of titles he should be the one being compared to MJ if you ask me.

Nobody is as efficient as him or controls a game more since MJ.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree with previous comments that referenced eras. In his era Bill Russell was GOAT. But I would say the best I ever saw was MJ. Labron is a freak and Kobe was tenacious but MJ transcends both IMO.

I kept thinking, how in the world could Bill Russell guard Wilt Chamberlain, but he did. He was a great defensive player.

Also, I kept waiting for John Havlicek to come off the bench. Then, the Celtics would kick it into another gear.

 

[Mainstreet]

I know this is going to get hate - but personally I think Jokic is a better player than Lebron ever was. If we weren't all so consumed about number of titles he should be the one being compared to MJ if you ask me.

Nobody is as efficient as him or controls a game more since MJ.

And Jokic is not a great athlete, in the conventional sense, but he plays the game seemingly without expending a lot of effort.

He is so deceptively good as a player. It's kind of like seeing a speeding train and not being able to get out of the way.

 

[BACH]

I think the GOAT discussion is basicly impossible in any sport. There is zero doubt that athletes today are better than athletes from the past. The training, nutritions etc. have advanced so much and applied broader on the whole sport.

 

[carrrnuttt]

I think the GOAT discussion is basicly impossible in any sport. There is zero doubt that athletes today are better than athletes from the past. The training, nutritions etc. have advanced so much and applied broader on the whole sport.

Which is an argument even further for MJ. Even today, there are only a handful of players that can imitate what MJ did every night in the 80s and 90s, and only portions of it at that.

Now imagine peak MJ with today's training and nutrition.

 

[BACH]

Which is an argument even further for MJ. Even today, there are only a handful of players that can imitate what MJ did every night in the 80s and 90s, and only portions of it at that.

Now imagine peak MJ with today's training and nutrition.

I would agree on that. The best way to measure is IMO the extra level of dominanace compared to their peers of their time.

I would also go Jordan in basketball.

But that logic makes a guy like Pogi (Pogacar) interesting. Arguebly the highest performing athlete in the world today. Is he the GOAT then?

 

[Dan H]

I think the GOAT discussion is basicly impossible in any sport. There is zero doubt that athletes today are better than athletes from the past. The training, nutritions etc. have advanced so much and applied broader on the whole sport.

And yet … no one is close to sniffing Gretzky’s records.