Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[az1965]

Yes it is year 5 Cheese, but can you count it as a year under RG's control when the year hasn't even started yet? He's had this team for 4 years, going on 5. We can't credit this year to him until we know what the results are, can we?

He had year 5 of the off season this year and based on earlier arguments, the offseason determines the season... so whether good or bad season, he is responsible. So, this IS year 5. Right?

 

[40yearfan]

He had year 5 of the off season this year and based on earlier arguments, the offseason determines the season... so whether good or bad season, he is responsible. So, this IS year 5. Right?

2007 is year 5. I didn't really count 2003 because Green didn't get here until 2004. So he had 3 years with DG and this year will be his 4th year with his men in place.

Hey, I can use fuzzy math too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ouchie, if it was anyone else than the Cards, I would agree with you. Three years should be enough time.

this has to be a first, 40 and i agree on something and 40 intimates SOMETHING might be wrong with the cards organization when compared to other organizations. and i'm really not being a smart ass here, but if you don't think it's graves that's a problem, where do you think the problem lies if we can't turn around a franchise in the same amount of time than can a normal franchise?

 

[40yearfan]

this has to be a first, 40 and i agree on something and 40 intimates SOMETHING might be wrong with the cards organization when compared to other organizations. and i'm really not being a smart ass here, but if you don't think it's graves that's a problem, where do you think the problem lies if we can't turn around a franchise in the same amount of time than can a normal franchise?

Ouchie, you know as well as I that this franchise was being run with the main concern being cash on hand. Without the revenues the other NFL teams had, the Cards could not compete, so the focus was on existing. That created a complete lack of continuity because every time this team started to build up, the players would demand more money, but the capital wasn't there to pay them. It got to be a vicious circle as the ticket revenue would drop off because of losing their good players and then there was less revenue. You need to remember that the TV revenue wasn't always here and hasn't always been the cash cow it is now.

Old habits die hard and after being frugal for so long, it was tough to start spending money even though the TV revenue was making it easier to operate. When Mr. B ask Mike B. to help him sell the stadium, the whole paradigm changed and Mike started taking an active part in this franchise. However, that has only been in the past 5 or 6 years. The inerta of this franchise had been going downhill for so long, it was like trying to stop a run-a-way freight train or turn around an oil tanker.

The effort has been made, money has been spent and we are now ready to reap the fruits of their efforts. In order to keep the stadium sold out, this has to be the year they start winning. That's why I think M. Bidwill will not accept anything other than a winning season this year. He paid for it and now he expects results.

 

[BigRedArk]

If I remember correctly, the talk around the board at the time of Denny's hiring and the announcement of his staff, was that the Owners had opened up the purse-strings to hire Denny, but in order to pay him what he wanted, he was told that he had a very tight budget on assistant hires.

That was the reason that he hired friends and no-names, mainly because they were the only people that would accept the $'s being offered.

Once again, it came down to the pie, and the fact that Denny got most of it.

JTS

Another version I heard was that DG came in and told the B's that we were close to winning and it was agreed based on that that he wouldn't need to hire high-dollar assistants.

Since the Cards did lose badly during the DG years it was all Denny's fault and if they had won it would have been because of Graves' acumen as a GM huh Jeff? In all seriousness reading your previous post in this thread you sound like a very contended loser Jeff. I don't say that in a flippant way either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In all seriousness reading your previous post in this thread you sound like a very contended loser Jeff. I don't say that in a flippant way either.

good lord. what is wrong with some people here?

 

[Duckjake]

good lord. what is wrong with some people here?

Carinal fan syndrome. Its been used as a defense in a couple of criminal trials in Northern California already.

As for the real Cars problems you just can't lay them at the feet of one particular thing. They've had trouble hiring the right coach, they've had trouble handling goofball players (Rice,Boston,TJones,WBryant), they've had trouble losing players to plan B free agency (Harvey,Novacek,McDonald), they've had trouble with the stadium and getting fans to the games. They've had troubles with an owner who thinks its still 1965.

Even Bob Ferguson who was a real GM couldn't overcome the obstacles. Yet for all that we're going into the 2007 regular season with an exciting young QB, an exciting new HC, three other star quality skill players on offense and one of the finest places ever built to watch NFL football. Things could be a lot worse. (like our defense).

 

[az1965]

They've had troubles with an owner who thinks its still 1965.

Hey... what's wrong with 1965, the best year

 

[conraddobler]

It took Whis one training camp to bench Rolle and cut a loser punter.

He'll turn the franchise around IMO, Graves will live or die by if Whis likes him in that if he does turn it around, the power will shift straight to Whis and if he dosen't feel Graves is pulling his share Graves will be gone.

If Whis fails Graves is gone.

Just MO but Graves is living on a one third chance at best IMO.

Depends on Whis now, cause he'll either turn this around or he won't this year and if not, that's year five and someone has to take the fall and it won't be Whis.

So Rod may just fittingly reap the crop he planted by leaving our LBers dangerously thin.

 

[kerouac9]

Carinal fan syndrome.

You know, I keep asking myself why you're saying "Cars" instead of "Cards", and then I remember. Then, it's funny all over again. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Sandan]

RG is bottom 5 in the league at least IMO.

Good guy, patently awful GM.

I point to the thread where all his extened players subsequently get cut.

The way he handled the cap, bad.

Drafts, depends on who you believe actually made the draft board even then, questionable.

Taking credit for DG's drafts right after firing the guy, laughable.

Extending him after canning DG, idiotic.

Things I do credit him with.

Bringing the organization out of the stone age in a lot of respects, most credit there goes to Mike Bidwill though.

His success is mostly administrative in nature, it should lie in his player development IMO.

Basically your credit him with nothing then. You right as though this is even handed but in reality everything there is slanted to the negative.

Love the cap management = bad comment. More accut=ratly it's laughable. Everything I heard suggested that if we needed more cap space it cold easily be found but simple restructuring. In fact iirc Urban or Somers made a comment like that.

I'll also equally sure you have now more idea than I do over who out of MB and RG is responsible for bringing them out of the stone age. Oh wait maybe I do, I know who was responsible for fixing issues with getting players into mini camps. I also know who was responsible for putting forward the first more creative contracts.

 

[Ryanwb]

Oh wait maybe I do, I know who was responsible for fixing issues with getting players into mini camps. I also know who was responsible for putting forward the first more creative contracts.

So you were in the boardroom meetings when this was discussed or are you making an educated guess? There is a difference

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It took Whis one training camp to bench Rolle and cut a loser punter.

He'll turn the franchise around IMO, Graves will live or die by if Whis likes him in that if he does turn it around, the power will shift straight to Whis and if he dosen't feel Graves is pulling his share Graves will be gone.

If Whis fails Graves is gone.

Just MO but Graves is living on a one third chance at best IMO.

Depends on Whis now, cause he'll either turn this around or he won't this year and if not, that's year five and someone has to take the fall and it won't be Whis.

So Rod may just fittingly reap the crop he planted by leaving our LBers dangerously thin.

If Whis does get it turned around, then you have to give Graves some credit for hiring him. I kind of laid off Graves for awhile after the DG hiring because i liked it and they looked to be turning it around.But when DG gets fired and RG gets an extension, that's when the doubts re-appeared, especially when MB and Graves basically absolved themselves of all blame and laid all the problems at Green's feet. Wasn't it ironic that at the same press conference they annouce the firing of DG that they announce the extension of the guy who hired him?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It took Whis one training camp to bench Rolle and cut a loser punter.

He'll turn the franchise around IMO, Graves will live or die by if Whis likes him in that if he does turn it around, the power will shift straight to Whis and if he dosen't feel Graves is pulling his share Graves will be gone.

If Whis fails Graves is gone.

Just MO but Graves is living on a one third chance at best IMO.

Depends on Whis now, cause he'll either turn this around or he won't this year and if not, that's year five and someone has to take the fall and it won't be Whis.

So Rod may just fittingly reap the crop he planted by leaving our LBers dangerously thin.

If Whis does get it turned around, then you have to give Graves some credit for hiring him. I kind of laid off Graves for awhile after the DG hiring because i liked it and they looked to be turning it around.But when DG gets fired and RG gets an extension, that's when the doubts re-appeared, especially when MB and Graves basically absolved themselves of all blame and laid all the problems at Green's feet. Wasn't it ironic that at the same press conference they annouce the firing of DG that they announce the extension of the guy who hired him?

 

[kerouac9]

I'll also equally sure you have now more idea than I do over who out of MB and RG is responsible for bringing them out of the stone age. Oh wait maybe I do, I know who was responsible for fixing issues with getting players into mini camps. I also know who was responsible for putting forward the first more creative contracts.

nidan, that was four years ago, buddy. We've been a 20-44 football team since. Time to move on.

 

[Stout]

Basically your credit him with nothing then. You right as though this is even handed but in reality everything there is slanted to the negative.

Love the cap management = bad comment. More accut=ratly it's laughable. Everything I heard suggested that if we needed more cap space it cold easily be found but simple restructuring. In fact iirc Urban or Somers made a comment like that.

I'll also equally sure you have now more idea than I do over who out of MB and RG is responsible for bringing them out of the stone age. Oh wait maybe I do, I know who was responsible for fixing issues with getting players into mini camps. I also know who was responsible for putting forward the first more creative contracts.

Nidan, it's great that he's gotten us to a level of minimal normalcy in the NFL. That definitely needed to happen, and you have to at least partially credit Graves for it. The problem is that we need 1,000 times more than that. We need an innovative GM that is willing to take risks and do everything humanly possible to better our team. What we do not need is a slow, plodding, conservative GM too afraid to make a crucial error and who thus moves at a snail's pace. That's what we have.

 

[JeffGollin]

We may all be giving Graves too much credit...and also too little.

Viewing the Cardinals since he came in here, my take on Rod (albeit from my vantage point 2,000 miles away and not knowing anyone in the organization personally) is that he's basically a solid pro football "manager" who works closely with his ownership and relies on both ownership and staff to arrive at important personnel decisions.

As such he may receive too little credit for bringing in good support staff and building an organizational structure which taps into every staffer's talents and accomodates all the pulling and tugging among ownership, coaches, scouts and bureaucracy that's a "law of nature" that impacts most organizations and which, if left untethered, can pull a franchise apart.

But, given the collegial nature of decision-making, he probably gets too much credit for good personnel decisions, too much blame for decisions that go wrong and not enough credit for contributing to the overall process of running a team.

 

[Pariah]

I don't know that we can give him "too little" credit. What would you like to give him credit for? Trying hard? As of this writing, we have not become a good football team. Hell, we haven't even become an average football team.

Is there hope? Seems like it, but doesn't there always seem to be hope? That's why we remain cardinals fans.

 

[Russ Smith]

Basically your credit him with nothing then. You right as though this is even handed but in reality everything there is slanted to the negative.

Love the cap management = bad comment. More accut=ratly it's laughable. Everything I heard suggested that if we needed more cap space it cold easily be found but simple restructuring. In fact iirc Urban or Somers made a comment like that.

.

The point is we would not have to even CONSIDER that if he hadn't intentionally frontloaded contracts this year.

Put it another way I have about 9 months left on my carloan. If I decided to just frontload the whole thing and pay it off that would be seen by some as smart, avoid interest.

If 2 months later I then had to take a loan on my 401k so I could pay rent because I spent all my money paying off the carloan, that would be seen as kind of dumb wouldn't it?

That's essentially what you're suggesting we could do if we need caproom.

 

[40yearfan]

It took Whis one training camp to bench Rolle and cut a loser punter.

He'll turn the franchise around IMO, Graves will live or die by if Whis likes him in that if he does turn it around, the power will shift straight to Whis and if he dosen't feel Graves is pulling his share Graves will be gone.

If Whis fails Graves is gone.

Just MO but Graves is living on a one third chance at best IMO.

Depends on Whis now, cause he'll either turn this around or he won't this year and if not, that's year five and someone has to take the fall and it won't be Whis.

So Rod may just fittingly reap the crop he planted by leaving our LBers dangerously thin.

Absolutely agree with bolded portions. All the excuses are used up and the time for performance is now. We are either going to fly or we will crash and burn and start all over.

 

[40yearfan]

The point is we would not have to even CONSIDER that if he hadn't intentionally frontloaded contracts this year.

Put it another way I have about 9 months left on my carloan. If I decided to just frontload the whole thing and pay it off that would be seen by some as smart, avoid interest.

If 2 months later I then had to take a loan on my 401k so I could pay rent because I spent all my money paying off the carloan, that would be seen as kind of dumb wouldn't it?

That's essentially what you're suggesting we could do if we need caproom.

No Russ, it's a lot easier than that. Just restructure a few contracts. The CAP is going to be even higher next year, so anything you want to do this year can be pushed off into the following year and you can easily cover it. If the Cards decide they need money for additional players, they have a method to get them. That's one of the advantages of being able to abuse the CAP system like some of the other NFL teams do.

 

[Russ Smith]

No Russ, it's a lot easier than that. Just restructure a few contracts. The CAP is going to be even higher next year, so anything you want to do this year can be pushed off into the following year and you can easily cover it. If the Cards decide they need money for additional players, they have a method to get them. That's one of the advantages of being able to abuse the CAP system like some of the other NFL teams do.

Sure but you do realize what restructure normally means? It means extend the deal, with a new signing bonus, or shift around money so that the player gets more in a different year, usually in the form of a bonus.

THa'ts why I said borrow money, in essence to restructure you are borrowing money by removing it from this years cap and deferring it, usually in bonuses.

You can't just say hey Adrian this year we're cutting your cap figure by 1 million OK? You have to give the player incentive to do it.

 

[Stout]

No Russ, it's a lot easier than that. Just restructure a few contracts. The CAP is going to be even higher next year, so anything you want to do this year can be pushed off into the following year and you can easily cover it. If the Cards decide they need money for additional players, they have a method to get them. That's one of the advantages of being able to abuse the CAP system like some of the other NFL teams do.

I'll believe it when I see it. First, I'll believe that we actually have the balls to quickly restructure so we can sign more talent when it actually happens. Next, I'll believe that we actually 'kept our powder dry' for the next FA period when the next FA period arrives and we don't simply rehash the same phrase for NEXT year. I'm tired of every year hearing that NEXT year we'll have plenty of cap space for FA. The sad thing is that people buy it every offseason.

 

[Mulli]

I'll believe it when I see it. First, I'll believe that we actually have the balls to quickly restructure so we can sign more talent when it actually happens. Next, I'll believe that we actually 'kept our powder dry' for the next FA period when the next FA period arrives and we don't simply rehash the same phrase for NEXT year. I'm tired of every year hearing that NEXT year we'll have plenty of cap space for FA. The sad thing is that people buy it every offseason.

Stout, we are almost to two years for your cycle of suck signature.

Craphonso, I hope we break it this year.

 

[Stout]

Stout, we are almost to two years for your cycle of suck signature.

Craphonso, I hope we break it this year.

Only one season through the circle of suck, though, so there is hope. I hereby decree that if we are above .500 after five games, I shall change my avatar. Hear me, O ye gods of football, and mark my oath!