Malcom Butler

[ASUCHRIS]

but they brought Green in for his experience and leadership. They identified a lack of it last year and set out to sign good pro vets.

Well maybe they should have focused on good pro vets. Sounds like AJ was the opposite of that last year - https://www.bengals.com/news/bengal...rid-of-frustration-hubbard-gets-a-lift-with-b

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I like Curtis. I wanted him, but they brought Green in for his experience and leadership. They identified a lack of it last year and set out to sign good pro vets.

Whether you agree or not they see Samuel and Kirk in the same light.

The leadership I get. But $6 for leadership is a steep price.

And no one in the nfl believes Kirk and Samuel are fungible.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well maybe they should have focused on good pro vets. Sounds like AJ was the opposite of that last year - https://www.bengals.com/news/bengal...rid-of-frustration-hubbard-gets-a-lift-with-b

Huh, that’s certainly not leadership. We’ve never seen Fitz give up and “loaf,” to my recollection, and he’s been on many poor teams.

 

[HomerPimpson]

When Christian Kirk turns out to be a dud, you're forced to roll the dice on reclamation projects.

Agree with this.

 

[BritCard]

The leadership I get. But $6 for leadership is a steep price.

And no one in the nfl believes Kirk and Samuel are fungible.

Kirk in 3 years

159 receptions 1920 yards 12.1 YPC and 12 TDs with 131 rushing yards. Can play inside and out.

Samuel in his first 3 years

108 receptions 1246 yards 11.4 YPC and 11 TDs with 278 rushing yards. Can play inside and out.

Both 2nd round picks. Samuel #40 and Kirk #47.

So your right, Kirk is better through 3 years. Samuel just had the extra year. Also only 1 coach, QB and scheme which Kirk hasn't had.

Yet another example of the Darksiders view that are own players are trash and everyone else's are better.

Why wouldn't any GM look at that and think "Why pay $11m for something we have already for a quarter the price?"

 

[kerouac9]

To be accurate, let's see EVERYONE's DVOA to be able judge.

Without comparison, what does it even mean? I mean I get that he was 9th in 2016 and 24th in 2018. But where does Julio rank? Beckham? What's the career arc?

And you keep saying that it's been 5 years since he was good, and this clearly demonstrates that isn't true.

Do your own research, bro. You're the one asserting something that's objectively not true.

Year: Julio Jones Rank, ODB Rank
2011: 30,
2012: 20
2013: 45
2014: 15, 6
2015: 34, 27
2016: 2, 52
2017: 18, NQ
2018: 6, 27
2019: 21, 45
2020: 2, NQ

Clowned yourself on the Julio Jones comparison.

It's been four years since Green's been ELITE, but the last three seasons have been pretty trash. Tell me again that he's a Hall of Fame-caliber player.

Now do Fitz

Year: Larry Fitzgerald Rank
2011: 31
2012: 83
2013: 49
2014: 55
2015: 10
2016: 65
2017: 50
2018: 71
2019: 48
2020: 78

I always thought that Fitz's statistical argument for the Hall of Fame has always been a little overstated. He had a great playoff run that cemented his reputation. He has three seasons in his long career where he ranked in the top 10 of DVOA.

The leadership I get. But $6 for leadership is a steep price.

And no one in the nfl believes Kirk and Samuel are fungible.

Yeah... He has a $3.5 million cap number this year and then will have a $2.5 million dead cap number next season when his contract voids. If he gets the job done, it's not a bad number.

 

[BritCard]

Do your own research, bro. You're the one asserting something that's objectively not true.

Year: Julio Jones Rank, ODB Rank
2011: 30,
2012: 20
2013: 45
2014: 15, 6
2015: 34, 27
2016: 2, 52
2017: 18, NQ
2018: 6, 27
2019: 21, 45
2020: 2, NQ

Clowned yourself on the Julio Jones comparison.

It's been four years since Green's been ELITE, but the last three seasons have been pretty trash. Tell me again that he's a Hall of Fame-caliber player.


Year: Larry Fitzgerald Rank
2011: 31
2012: 83
2013: 49
2014: 55
2015: 10
2016: 65
2017: 50
2018: 71
2019: 48
2020: 78

I always thought that Fitz's statistical argument for the Hall of Fame has always been a little overstated. He had a great playoff run that cemented his reputation. He has three seasons in his long career where he ranked in the top 10 of DVOA.



Yeah... He has a $3.5 million cap number this year and then will have a $2.5 million dead cap number next season when his contract voids. If he gets the job done, it's not a bad number.

Ok. This says since 2011 Green has been better than Fitz. By my calculation Fitz was 33 in 2017. If Green can be top 50 DVOA that would be a good season.

 

[kerouac9]

Ok. This says since 2011 Green has been better than Fitz. By my calculation Fitz was 33 in 2017. If Green can be top 50 DVOA that would be a good season.

I guess. 50th in DVOA was Cole in Jacksonville with 88-642-5 with 5 DPIs. That wouldn't rock my world.

Actually, Christian Kirk was 51st in DVOA last year.

 

[BritCard]

I guess. 50th in DVOA was Cole in Jacksonville with 88-642-5 with 5 DPIs. That wouldn't rock my world.

Actually, Christian Kirk was 51st in DVOA last year.

DVOA doesn't mean yards though right?

Julio was 2nd in DVOA last year but only had 700 yards.

 

[kerouac9]

DVOA doesn't mean yards though right?

Julio was 2nd in DVOA last year but only had 700 yards.

No, it's situational. Success rate, first downs, etc. all plays into it, as well as strength of opponent.

 

[cardncubfan]

His Pro Bowls are as useful a measuring stick of his talent at this stage in his career as Fitz's are. As careers wind down and players lose a step, start getting injured, etc, their past success means NOTHING if they're done. I love Fitz to death and he's one of my all-time faves, but I don't want him back. Why not? He has loads of Pro Bowls in his career. Those mean jack squat. I don't care what Green WAS; I care what he IS NOW. And if we prioritized a guy that can get us 6 or 700 yards over other more talented at this point in their career receivers, that was exceedingly stupid on Keim's part. If we'd signed him as a #3? Great! Not as a #2.

If you care what he is now why don't you believe the reports out of camp coming from everybody that has watched, outsiders & insiders? Everyone is saying that he looks great & like his former self. But you must be from Missouri. SMH.

 

[cardncubfan]

Curtis Samuel would’ve be a terrific target.

I would take AJ over Samuel every day of the week. That's not being a homer either because we have AJ. If you would have asked me at the end of the year last year which one would I prefer to sign in the offseason it would have been AJ. Always liked him as a receiver. Samuel seems more like a slot receiver to me but I'm sure I'll get blasted for saying that. He's an average receiver to me. I don't know why you would prefer him over AJ though. Age?

 

[Shane]

I would take AJ over Samuel every day of the week. That's not being a homer either because we have AJ. If you would have asked me at the end of the year last year which one would I prefer to sign in the offseason it would have been AJ. Always liked him as a receiver. Samuel seems more like a slot receiver to me but I'm sure I'll get blasted for saying that. He's an average receiver to me. I don't know why you would prefer him over AJ though. Age?

Samuel is nothing special. Didn’t understand all the toe around here wanting him badly in FA.

 

[Solar7]

If you care what he is now why don't you believe the reports out of camp coming from everybody that has watched, outsiders & insiders? Everyone is saying that he looks great & like his former self. But you must be from Missouri. SMH.

Because camp reports are often too kind to our own players. He may look good catching in half-speed practices where he's not really at risk of getting hit, but it's been a long time since he's shown much. I've been a quiet proponent of AJ Green, especially since I really wanted the Cardinals to try to get him in 2020 before he was franchised, but the doubts are very valid.

I would take AJ over Samuel every day of the week. That's not being a homer either because we have AJ. If you would have asked me at the end of the year last year which one would I prefer to sign in the offseason it would have been AJ. Always liked him as a receiver. Samuel seems more like a slot receiver to me but I'm sure I'll get blasted for saying that. He's an average receiver to me. I don't know why you would prefer him over AJ though. Age?

AJ is a one year player. Regardless of what he does this year, he's going to be 33 and at the edge of the receiver cliff, needing to be re-signed. Samuel was an emerging player when used right, and I bet he'll thrive in Washington, playing in a variety of roles. And he could be a player here for multiple years, as opposed to the situation we're in right now.

Rondale Moore might replace what we would have gotten out of Samuel, but there was no guarantee he'd be on the roster back in May.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I would take AJ over Samuel every day of the week. That's not being a homer either because we have AJ. If you would have asked me at the end of the year last year which one would I prefer to sign in the offseason it would have been AJ. Always liked him as a receiver. Samuel seems more like a slot receiver to me but I'm sure I'll get blasted for saying that. He's an average receiver to me. I don't know why you would prefer him over AJ though. Age?

maybe because he’s actually been able to stay on the field the last three years, got better every single year and is five years younger than an injury prone, aging player who’s stats were worse than Samuels.

and can you guys spare me the “leadership” angle. Never once in my life have we heard about any Bengal really being a leader of any sort... not to mention articles this year specifically pinpointed Green for his lack of leadership, pouting and loafing last season.

 

[DVontel]

Past few pages is rough lol

kind of hard to shine when you have the ghost of Cam Newton, PJ Walker, Kyle Allen, Will Grier, & Checkdown legend Teddy Bridgewater throwing you the ball

Pretty sure everyone in here is easily taking Kyler over all of them

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kirk in 3 years

159 receptions 1920 yards 12.1 YPC and 12 TDs with 131 rushing yards. Can play inside and out.

Samuel in his first 3 years

108 receptions 1246 yards 11.4 YPC and 11 TDs with 278 rushing yards. Can play inside and out.

Both 2nd round picks. Samuel #40 and Kirk #47.

So your right, Kirk is better through 3 years. Samuel just had the extra year. Also only 1 coach, QB and scheme which Kirk hasn't had.

Yet another example of the Darksiders view that are own players are trash and everyone else's are better.

Why wouldn't any GM look at that and think "Why pay $11m for something we have already for a quarter the price?"

Typical koolaiders spouting stats and ignore everything else. Samuel was a converted rb who took tone to acclimate to wr. Not surprisingly his stats show a very steady and impressive improvement. Kirks show just the opposite. Complete inconsistency. I guess we’ll see what the nfl thinks of Kirk when he hits free agency. I doubt he’ll garner the interest and contract (time relevant) than did Samuel.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Samuel is nothing special. Didn’t understand all the toe around here wanting him badly in FA.

Speed. And he’s been improving each year. Remember he was converted from rb

 

[Krangodnzr]

Do your own research, bro. You're the one asserting something that's objectively not true.

Year: Julio Jones Rank, ODB Rank
2011: 30,
2012: 20
2013: 45
2014: 15, 6
2015: 34, 27
2016: 2, 52
2017: 18, NQ
2018: 6, 27
2019: 21, 45
2020: 2, NQ

Clowned yourself on the Julio Jones comparison.

It's been four years since Green's been ELITE, but the last three seasons have been pretty trash. Tell me again that he's a Hall of Fame-caliber player.


Year: Larry Fitzgerald Rank
2011: 31
2012: 83
2013: 49
2014: 55
2015: 10
2016: 65
2017: 50
2018: 71
2019: 48
2020: 78

I always thought that Fitz's statistical argument for the Hall of Fame has always been a little overstated. He had a great playoff run that cemented his reputation. He has three seasons in his long career where he ranked in the top 10 of DVOA.



Yeah... He has a $3.5 million cap number this year and then will have a $2.5 million dead cap number next season when his contract voids. If he gets the job done, it's not a bad number.

You're the one using a non-traditional stat in DVOA.....and making these claims with no reference.

I'm pretty certain the Hall of Fame selection doesn't use DVOA as a measurement LOL

 

[kerouac9]

The mention of his Pro Bowls is reason for ACTUAL hope. Not false hope. He is a guy who has had seasons were he was the best receiver in football, or near best.

We're not talking about Stephen Williams. We're not talking about Christian Kirk.

We are talking about a borderline Hall of Fame receiver. That is the point that is seemingly lost here. If I'm betting on a guy bouncing back, I'm not betting on a washed up Golden Tate. But I would bet money that AJ Green will be a significant improvement over Larry Fitzgerald.

I don't think even the most cheery assessment of AJ Green thinks he will be back to Pro Bowl form. Well maybe if you accept what DeAndre Hopkins thinks.

You're the one using a non-traditional stat in DVOA.....and making these claims with no reference.

I'm pretty certain the Hall of Fame selection doesn't use DVOA as a measurement LOL

You used to be more intellectually honest than this and just admit that you were exaggerating when you went out on a limb and ended up wrong. Disappointing.

According to Pro Football Reference, Greens career comparisons are Antonio Freeman and Sterling Sharpe. Neither of those guys are coming close to the hall of fame.

Cmon, man. He can be an above average #2 right now and a guy who accumulated a bunch of junk yardage as the only passing option under Andy Dalton.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

I think this is almost certainly the case.

Is it a great surprise that a 90th percentile athlete might beat out a 32 year old that's lost a step? ALthough I wish Butler would have stuck around. He still could have contributed on depth. I still think he would see quite a lot of reps.

Seems childish of him to burn $3.5m because he got beat out.

I am sure it was handled poorly by both sides. Mix a GM with no class, a coach in over his head and a player with a huge ego who has lost a step and you have A recipe for disaster

 

[Krangodnzr]

You used to be more intellectually honest than this and just admit that you were exaggerating when you went out on a limb and ended up wrong. Disappointing.

According to Pro Football Reference, Greens career comparisons are Antonio Freeman and Sterling Sharpe. Neither of those guys are coming close to the hall of fame.

Cmon, man. He can be an above average #2 right now and a guy who accumulated a bunch of junk yardage as the only passing option under Andy Dalton.

LOL

Nothing "intellectually dishonest" about my argument.

Not many receivers in NFL history with seven Pro Bowls.

Freeman had how many?

Sharpe was well on his way to being one of the best ever when injuries brought him down.

A Pro Bowm or two is meaningless...seven isnt.

 

[BritCard]

No, it's situational. Success rate, first downs, etc. all plays into it, as well as strength of opponent.

Ok so it doesn't necessarily point to output or quality.

Just looking at last year and Keenan Allen was 2 spots better than Christian Kirk. Keened Allen had an 85 PFF grade, Kirk had 62.

 

[BritCard]

Because camp reports are often too kind to our own players. He may look good catching in half-speed practices where he's not really at risk of getting hit, but it's been a long time since he's shown much. I've been a quiet proponent of AJ Green, especially since I really wanted the Cardinals to try to get him in 2020 before he was franchised, but the doubts are very valid.


AJ is a one year player. Regardless of what he does this year, he's going to be 33 and at the edge of the receiver cliff, needing to be re-signed. Samuel was an emerging player when used right, and I bet he'll thrive in Washington, playing in a variety of roles. And he could be a player here for multiple years, as opposed to the situation we're in right now.

Rondale Moore might replace what we would have gotten out of Samuel, but there was no guarantee he'd be on the roster back in May.

Curtis Samuel has been out for 3 months, missed all of camp and only just got back this week.

Samuel is unlikely to do much for some time.

 

[BritCard]

Kirks show just the opposite. Complete inconsistency.

Kirk Year 1 - 49 YPG
Kirk Year 2 - 54.5 YPG
Cards sign Hopkins, Kirks targets drop 30%
Kirk Year 3 - 44 YPG

Curtis Samuel through his first 3 years never crossed 40 YPG.

So again, your argument is more darksider nonsense. Kirk is clearly better through his first 3 years in the league. The ONLY thing that has you liking Samuel over Kirk is that Samuel had a nice 4th year where he had 56 YPG. A year that Kirk hasn't had the opportunity to have yet.

Going back to the original point is it really hard to see why the Cards didn't sign him? You're looking for a guy to play outside opposite Nuk and you're saying you wouldn't look at Samuel and think you could get that out of Kirk for much less money?