Listening to Jureki and Lewis...

[Sandan]

I don't have the background to judge LJ's ability but lets make one thing very, very clear.

Understand, he is not a 'bum" as somebody has suggested. He is a classy guy, intelligent and not in the slightest bit uptight or overly impressed with his own ego, just the reverse.

So when you talk about him, please remember that you are talking about somebody who is a friend of Skkorp's and was (hopefully still is) becoming a friend of mine. He is not a bum.

 

[justAndy]

....

Are us fans so frustrated and fearful already that we're sniping at each other?
This is not good...

 

[40yearfan]

Mike Bidwill is an astute businessman...............on what do you base this? He was a practicing lawyer for a few years before being annointed by his dad to some obscure position deep in the bowels of the organization before taking on the role he now has.........hardly qualifies him as an astute businessman. Lee Iaccocca, Jack Welsh (or closer to home for you in AZ ) Bill Franke, they better describe what are "good businessmen".

Spanky, think about it. All of the changes that have come about the past two years (changes for the good such as bells and whistles in contracts, proper CAP management, etc.) have come after Mike Bidwill started running things. He has been involved with this organization long enough to know what it's problems have been and in the short time he has been running it, he has made many needed changes for the better. That to me is an astute businessman who knows what he is doing. Trying to compare him to an icon in a large corporation is silly. The Cardinals are a family run business and there is no comparison.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Spanky, think about it. All of the changes that have come about the past two years (changes for the good such as bells and whistles in contracts, proper CAP management, etc.) have come after Mike Bidwill started running things. He has been involved with this organization long enough to know what it's problems have been and in the short time he has been running it, he has made many needed changes for the better. That to me is an astute businessman who knows what he is doing. Trying to compare him to an icon in a large corporation is silly. The Cardinals are a family run business and there is no comparison.

I gotta disagree on some of this.

Firstly....ALL the changes didn't start JUST in the last 2 years.

I maintain, and have for some time, that they started in 2000 with the signing of Mark Gruttadaria as a free agent.
Followed in 2001 with the signing of FA Pete Kendall.

You also seem to leave out or forget, that back in those years ...and slightly before....the Bidwill family seemed embroiled in somewhat of a family turmoil as to members "jostling" for pecking order positions. For a while it looked like Bill Jr. might emerge as the leading successor to Sr.

No, I don't think all the changes to the good suddenly just started in the past 2 years. There's a lot more to it than that.

At this point I'm just hoping Michael balances a somewhat reputation for being just another "sharp, ruthless, conniving attorney" with some of Sr's dedication to honest and upright dealings , with integrity, in his business

 

[Sandan]

I think you will find that the balance comes from working with Rod Graves who is MB choice to run things.

A good manager hires people who are good at the things they are bad at and then listens to them.

 

[40yearfan]

I gotta disagree on some of this.

Firstly....ALL the changes didn't start JUST in the last 2 years.

I maintain, and have for some time, that they started in 2000 with the signing of Mark Gruttadaria as a free agent.
Followed in 2001 with the signing of FA Pete Kendall.

You also seem to leave out or forget, that back in those years ...and slightly before....the Bidwill family seemed embroiled in somewhat of a family turmoil as to members "jostling" for pecking order positions. For a while it looked like Bill Jr. might emerge as the leading successor to Sr.

No, I don't think all the changes to the good suddenly just started in the past 2 years. There's a lot more to it than that.

At this point I'm just hoping Michael balances a somewhat reputation for being just another "sharp, ruthless, conniving attorney" with some of Sr's dedication to honest and upright dealings , with integrity, in his business

Tango, the biggest change in this organization came about last year when they finally started doing contracts like the rest of the NFL has for the past decade. The Cards finally got a high round draft choice in on time because of it. They also redid the insurance agreements so the draftees could participate in the off season mini-camps. These two changes alone qualify M. Bidwill as being the person who brought the Cardinal organization into the 20th. century. Before that time, changes in the operation of this organization were few and far between.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I don't have the background to judge LJ's ability but lets make one thing very, very clear.

Understand, he is not a 'bum" as somebody has suggested. He is a classy guy, intelligent and not in the slightest bit uptight or overly impressed with his own ego, just the reverse.

So when you talk about him, please remember that you are talking about somebody who is a friend of Skkorp's and was (hopefully still is) becoming a friend of mine. He is not a bum.

im pulling for LJ. Good luck bro!

 

[Ryanwb]

im pulling for LJ. Good luck bro!

Yeah, I have always been an LJ Shelton fan since we drafted him. Classy guy and really nice to the fans up at camp. I hope he finds his rightful place on this team

 

[Tangodnzr]

Tango, the biggest change in this organization came about last year when they finally started doing contracts like the rest of the NFL has for the past decade. The Cards finally got a high round draft choice in on time because of it. They also redid the insurance agreements so the draftees could participate in the off season mini-camps. These two changes alone qualify M. Bidwill as being the person who brought the Cardinal organization into the 20th. century. Before that time, changes in the operation of this organization were few and far between.

While I would agree that changing their stance on the insurance agreements was overdue...and that the willingness to negotiate more "liberal" contracts were certainly pluses....like I said...to catagorize everything as suddenly happening last year is inaccurate.

It took awhile for those things to "develop"...they just didn't happen overnight.

To me, part of the reality, goes back to the Cap hell Buddy put the team in, with his myopic dealings. Granted Sr. was often infurioratingly slow to change his conservative stance in regard to contracts...regarding "bells & whistles", etc. But that was not all bad either IMO because history has shown that many times a team ended up paying dearly in the long run for cap hell's created with too many ultra-liberal, back loaded contracts.

Where is Tim Brown now? Did not most "savvy" people know that his contract last year was a joke? as so many other contracts the past few years attest.

At least Sr. had the reputation of honoring the contracts he made. again, evidently infurioratingly so, to many. But starting with Grutts and Kendall we also saw progress in contract negotiations...contracts that the players could see weren't just some carnival fluff to attract them for a year or two and then cut them to avoid the ridiculus back loadings....enough so, that they did come here...same with Starks.

Big's contract was also more liberal than in the past.

I think, too, that installing Rod Graves as GM was another step in the right direction.

NO...this all didn't just suddenly start happening "the last two years". Like I said...it has been a slow gradual process.

And like i say...to me the first tangible signs started in 2000. (actually with the firing of Buddy, for that matter, even earlier....as it showed Sr. would at least correct mistakes.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Sorry but I can accept Kendall being cut as nothing more than a power play by Green...power over the players and over the front office. That is fine and I have moved on from the lunacy of that move. But to leave one of your coaches completely out of the loop can have an even bigger cancerous effect since these are the guys trying to "coach up" the Cards players. Acting like Green is the only one with anything on the line is laughable. Green cannot make decisions in a vacuum. He must have everyone on the same page if he is ever to achieve success.

Q: Where is the actual proof that Graves and Wylie were not consulted before cutting Kendall? Are either on the record confirmimg this?

 

[Tangodnzr]

I also forgot to mention...
that the Cards have been one of the best cap managed teams for at least the last 3 years.

Those who prop Dennis Green and his great draft forget that the Cards the past 2 years have been able to do pretty much what they want, cap-wise.
Because of the good cap management in recent years, Dennis Green CAN offer Fitz the type of contract he did.
They CAN now start negotiating a revision of Quan's contract....etc.

When was the last time this team HAD to jettison a player purely for cap reasons?

Yes, until they are in the new stadium, with a new set of revenue generating rules, available CASH may still be somewhat limited. But they seem to be navigating that OK.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I don't call having a team that is 4-12 as having a great cap managed team...

 

[Tangodnzr]

I don't call having a team that is 4-12 as having a great cap managed team...

Would you be so kind as to delineate how you equate the 4-12 record of last year with "cap management". I would really doubt that our recent draft picks were made strictly just to "manage the cap".

Amazing, simply amazing.

 

[SECTION 11]

I would really doubt that our recent draft picks were made strictly just to "manage the cap".

Considering that we spent (in every sense of the word) the #3 pick on a receiver that can't get open, I'd say your statement holds true.

 

[40yearfan]

I also forgot to mention...
that the Cards have been one of the best cap managed teams for at least the last 3 years.

Those who prop Dennis Green and his great draft forget that the Cards the past 2 years have been able to do pretty much what they want, cap-wise.
Because of the good cap management in recent years, Dennis Green CAN offer Fitz the type of contract he did.
They CAN now start negotiating a revision of Quan's contract....etc.

When was the last time this team HAD to jettison a player purely for cap reasons?

Yes, until they are in the new stadium, with a new set of revenue generating rules, available CASH may still be somewhat limited. But they seem to be navigating that OK.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Would you be so kind as to delineate how you equate the 4-12 record of last year with "cap management". I would really doubt that our recent draft picks were made strictly just to "manage the cap".

Amazing, simply amazing.

I think your line of thinking is simply amazing Tango. You are able to defend one of the NFL's worst teams for the past half a century on their previous moves. Most people from other teams would laugh at your conclusions. We would be managing the cap even better with your line of thinking if we signed even lesser players than we have already for less pay! We had the worst defense and worst offense last year! I think most teams could manage the cap well if that is all they were aspiring to. I think it's much easier to manage the cap when most of your players haven't proven anything on the field.

 

[Mulli]

Considering that we spent (in every sense of the word) the #3 pick on a receiver that can't get open, I'd say your statement holds true.

Yeah and last year we drafted a receiver who was too slow and had knee problems in the second round.

 

[SECTION 11]

Yeah and last year we drafted a receiver who was too slow and had knee problems in the second round.

Now THAT was a solid draft choice.


Sorry but I'm not sold on Fitzgerald one bit. I think we blew the first round this year. Putting McCown in a position where he has to make plays because all we have is receivers was not too bright, IMO.

 

[ajcardfan]

I'll be VERY disappointed if we win less than 6 games, that's only a 2 game improvement on a team that could have easily won 6-7 games last year with any luck or coaching(all home games of course). I don't think that's asking too much and I fully expect that, unless Quan is out significantly longer than we now think he will be.

Of course, we very easily could've been 1-15 as well. Those "could'ves" cut both ways and usually balance out.

 

[schel]

Why would we have cap problems? We don't have many "star players". We've also been the youngest team for a couple of years now. That's not exactly a good thing. We haven't been able to keep many good veteran players, who in general, demand bigger contracts. A lot of the people we have are still under their rookie contracts or are just not wanted on other teams. In fact, I'd say we overpaid a lot of our players for no apparent reason. Yeah, I don't want to be the Redskins with overpaid "star players" yet still a bad team, but our cap situation isn't exactly something we should be proud over given our record.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Why would we have cap problems? We don't have many "star players". We've also been the youngest team for a couple of years now. That's not exactly a good thing. We haven't been able to keep many good veteran players, who in general, demand bigger contracts. A lot of the people we have are still under their rookie contracts or are just not wanted on other teams. In fact, I'd say we overpaid a lot of our players for no apparent reason. Yeah, I don't want to be the Redskins with overpaid "star players" yet still a bad team, but our cap situation isn't exactly something we should be proud over given our record.

My thoughts exactly....

 

[C-MACK]

I think your line of thinking is simply amazing Tango. You are able to defend one of the NFL's worst teams for the past half a century on their previous moves. Most people from other teams would laugh at your conclusions. .

Don't forget that Tango is the leader of the "Gilmore has great hands and is a productive WR" fan club so it isn't out of line to question his thinking.

 

[ajcardfan]

"what have you done for me lately" business and in the last two years Green has less wins then Mac, Green has 0 because no one would hire him.

Green was fired, which means he was due the balance of his contract. He sat out and collected those two years because the money was massive. Had he sought and taken another coaching job, he would've forfeited that money. Once that time was over, he immediately interviewed for three jobs and got one. So, to say "no one would hire him" is less than accurate.

 

[Russ Smith]

Of course, we very easily could've been 1-15 as well. Those "could'ves" cut both ways and usually balance out.

true but this was a totally different team at home. While none of the wins were blowouts, they weren't flukes either. We weren't winning on lucky plays against Green Bay, SF etc.

We were for whatever reason at least competitive in most of our home games, and non competitive in most of the road games.

That's where I'm counting on Green making a difference, getting this team ready to play each week.

 

[Russ Smith]

Why would we have cap problems? We don't have many "star players". We've also been the youngest team for a couple of years now. That's not exactly a good thing. We haven't been able to keep many good veteran players, who in general, demand bigger contracts. A lot of the people we have are still under their rookie contracts or are just not wanted on other teams. In fact, I'd say we overpaid a lot of our players for no apparent reason. Yeah, I don't want to be the Redskins with overpaid "star players" yet still a bad team, but our cap situation isn't exactly something we should be proud over given our record.

True. I read last week that Washington has something like 93 million committed to their 19 or so signed players 2 seasons from now.

Forget the exact numbers but in essence they've only got a 3rd of their roster signed for 2006, but the caphits of those players alone puts them well over the cap.