Listening to Jureki and Lewis...

[Gnomad]

anyway... i'll let DG rape and pillage this team if it'll get them to 10 wins. i'll agree to the dictatorship for ... probably 1.5 - 2 yrs. if it doesn't work, we'll be in for some serious problems.

 

[AZCB34]

I will answer for myself, thank you, and I would appreciate you not trying to pidgon-hole me for simplicity of thought.

I think we all need to give DG a chance to do his job...at least two years to see how this starts to shape up. I will be more than willing to call for his head if he has not turned the corner; to be so negative now is counter-productive.

Since DG will be held responsible for the Wins and Losses, who he cuts is his call. If he didn't consult his position coach, I assume it was because there was nothing that coach was going to say that would affect his decision. Since it is HIS job, and he has better credentials then anyone else in this discussion, yea, I give him the nod.

Why do you act like Green is the only one with anything to lose? Wylie's job is maybe more expendable than Green's is. Here is why he should have AT LEAST given Wylie a heads up on Kendall being cut...why he owed it to Wylie.

1. Time/Planning - All offseason long, Wylie has been working with the idea that Kendall was his starting C. Wylie was scheming knowing he had a veteran presence in the middle of his OL to hopefully help the unit play to his expectations. For the 3 weeks from the end of OTA's, when Kendall was still named starter, Wylie spent alot of his free time further scheming for camp with kendall firmly entrenched at C. Suddenly, all of Wylie's work is blown up, not do to injury but rather due to a power move by Green...and no matter how you slice it, this was a power move by Green.

2. Trust - All this work by Wylie and he cannot even trust what Green is saying...nor can the players really trust him. Is that a motivator? Maybe but doesn't success on the field evolve from a trust and respect between coaches and players? If Wylie cannot trust Green to not go off half-cocked, how can he do his job right. And one of those jobs is knowing the OL better than Green knows it.

Sorry but I can accept Kendall being cut as nothing more than a power play by Green...power over the players and over the front office. That is fine and I have moved on from the lunacy of that move. But to leave one of your coaches completely out of the loop can have an even bigger cancerous effect since these are the guys trying to "coach up" the Cards players. Acting like Green is the only one with anything on the line is laughable. Green cannot make decisions in a vacuum. He must have everyone on the same page if he is ever to achieve success.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I would call Dallas and Cincy one year turnarounds last year. Also, to clarify I took the give him 2 years comment to mean, he can lose this year and next year it's year 3 that this team will be his. I am not sure that's what the poster meant, he may have meant give him this year, but in year 2 he better win.

Parcells had Campo's Top 5 D in place and Cincy went 8-8 winning exactly one game by more than one TD. Green doesn't have that kind of defense in place and if we are as lucky or well-coached as the Bengals were last year, maybe we'll go 8-8 but we still will not be a great team, just as Cincy wasn't last year.

I completely understand what you're saying but again, look at the scores of the home game and ask yourself if we couldn't have pulled out 2-3 more wins with some luck or absence of dumb plays? Baltimore the blocked punt and the pick for a TD, erase those plays and we win is an example of what I mean. We were completely inept on the road, which I attribute to both talent and coaching.

But you can't say this because if some dumb luck hadn't gone our way, we wouldn't have beat Minnesota, Green Bay, or San Francisco. We were what we were last year, the worst team in the NFL. You can't sugracoat that by giving out 'what ifs.'

I think 10 wins this year would be a miracle, but i do think Green has substantially hurt our ability to win right away by weakening the OL to prove a point about who is in charge.

I still don't see how this team got noticeably worse. No matter how much poeple build these two guys up around here, Kendall and Shelton were at best in the bottom half of the NFL at their positions. If we go with rookies or LD who have more upside so that they're better prepared in '05 and '06 (which is I think what Graves, Mike B. and Green are focused on), then I'm all for it. It's called forward thinking, something many aorund here aren't doing as all they're looking at is the past.

 

[spanky1]

AZCB34,

The preceding post is excellent.

 

[joeshmo]

I have come to the conclusion that Green is only here to be a power hungry ego maniac, Get props, fame and admiration.

He he doesnt want his 1 million dollar playoff bonus or raise his ego(90% of coaches have it by the way) by winning and going to the playoffs.



His Ego and a lot of other coaches egos is the driving force for them wanting to win. Add in the 1 mill bonus, Green has a lot of reason to want to win.

As for MJ is he just reporting what he sees, yes, but a lot of it is slanted or one sided becuase of his bias and love for the media friendly Mac and Kendall. All media types do it and understandable so, it is hard to keep ones bias out of any story you tell or opinion one makes. Just look at Lewis he actually played the game and was basiclly telling MJ to just lighten up today and told him he was going to far with what he was saying.

Now I to think Green has made some not bad calls but questionable calls(I call it that way becuase we dont know the ramifications of them yet). Any new coach not just Green will have a 1 year grace period for me especially when they take over such a bad team in the first place. But as of right now I really do like all of Greens moves so far except for.

1. LJ should be on the line somewhere just not LT beucause IMO that is where Davis should have been from day 1.

2. I actually like the Kendall cut, the only problem I have with it is the way he did it. It would have been precieved better by media and fans if he did it a week or 2 before training camp.

 

[CardLogic]

Yep, Aerospace industry...I know it isn't a dance studio or anything...

 

[azdad1978]

What I don't understand is this. If Redheart and Bobcat can't stand Jurecki why are you guys still tuning in? C'mon guys if you guys don't like his views turn the dial off. I hate Gambo so I don't listen to his shows. MJ maybe bias but he's the only Cards insider that's really following the Cards around. without his bias opinion we have nothing to talk about IMO.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Great post Cubby. I agree with your points totally.

I am going to go back, and do something I didn't last winter, when I put together my "Coaching history" piece that Skkorp ran on the front page.
...which is do a detailed history of Green, like I did with a lot of the other coaches.
I did do the research, (plus my own experiences and memory) on Green, I just didn't piece it all together in the articles.

One of the first things that I was jumped on when Green's name got thrown in to the hat here, was for saying something to the effect that Green's history was one of often "taking credit for assistant's work".

As you point out, Green has established the reputation for being an "offensive mind".
People keep referring to his great record at Minnesota.

Some of that had to do with having some of the assistant coaches he did....starting with Tony Dungy.

And Tony Dungy was NOT a Dennis Green clone. He was considered a "hot commodity" as a new great young mind...long before Green enticed him to come to Minnesota. And those who have referred to Dungy's praise of Green and how much he learned from him probably also don't take into account that ....what else would you expect Tony Dungy to say? Especially being Tony Dungy? The guy is pure class, himself....why would he want to air "dirty laundry" about Green? Dungy just isn't that type of guy. Is Dennis Green a complete idiot? I don't think so.

Is he over-rated? I say, very possibly. and once again ....."We'll see".

 

[seesred]

All I can say it was a very short honeymoon. When you take over a dieing business you need most of the time to make drastic changes. I know most of you hated last years draft. Why, becuase we went with volume instead of quality. That was Graves and Bidwill I belive. Green comes in and with some exceptions had a great draft. Pulled the plug on the D-line by letting people go, changed the O-line and if you saw LJ this past Saturday it will explain why he is not starting.

Told the team and the town that he expects a playoff team this year. Why would anyone going into a new business and think it would fail if you get the right office people, sales people..I mean players, draft staff , coaches etc; He is still tuning it up. There are still some surprises coming. Not all players on any team completly buy into any bosses ideas. I don't even want to know who they are LJ., PK...As far as Graves goes he will get over anything if we start winning. The Coach needs the power, he has done it before.
GBR--40

 

[Espo]

Redheart, Mj is just doing his job. We all can't drink the koolaide like you. I think it was pretty obvious on saturday that some of these guys weren't buying what Green's selling. It looked as if some of those guys, ala Shelton, were just going throught he motions. I am not completely sold on Green. Feel free to tell me all of his wins and stats with other teams but this is a "what have you done for me lately" business and in the last two years Green has less wins then Mac, Green has 0 because no one would hire him. He has an ego and if he and Graves are fighting for power this is going to get ugly just like it got ugly in Minnesota for Green. When this team shows some improvement from the 4-12 team they were last year then ill give Green his props. Until then I can't give him the free pass we all have afforded him thus far. I will trust Green knows what he's doing but i won't blindly follow everything and i will be objective to what he is doing.

 

[Russ Smith]

Parcells had Campo's Top 5 D in place and Cincy went 8-8 winning exactly one game by more than one TD. Green doesn't have that kind of defense in place and if we are as lucky or well-coached as the Bengals were last year, maybe we'll go 8-8 but we still will not be a great team, just as Cincy wasn't last year.


.

We're looking at different measures.

2002 Bengals score 279 points allow 456 and go 2-14. 2003 they score 346 points, allow 384, and go 8-8. That means they score 65 more points, and gave up 72 points less, a 137 point turnaround in one year is pretty significant to me, especially since they did it with largely the same cast of players for the most part. I personally expect them to take a step back this year because Palmer will be starting and he's young, but there's no question that so far Lewis has that team on the right track and in one year he took a horrible team and made them competitive.

That's what I expect this year from Green, and in year 2 I expect a playoff contender, UNLESS he decides to change his QB, in which case we'll all be asking why we passed on Ben.

 

[Redheart]

...Sorry but I can accept Kendall being cut as nothing more than a power play by Green...power over the players and over the front office. That is fine and I have moved on from the lunacy of that move. But to leave one of your coaches completely out of the loop can have an even bigger cancerous effect since these are the guys trying to "coach up" the Cards players. Acting like Green is the only one with anything on the line is laughable. Green cannot make decisions in a vacuum. He must have everyone on the same page if he is ever to achieve success.

We don't know the whole story here; however, I grant you several good points about the best way to do business and inspire trust and confidence.

I also know that some behaviors or actions are not up for debate; some lines you cross, get you fired. Period. I hope someday to get the whole story on Kendal, all we have now is conjecture, and some of it very bitter and negative.

The buck stops with Green, he hired Wylie and together they drafted two potenial Centers, even when we had Kendall...hmmm. Pre-camp work outs also gave them time to asess those draft picks. If you were going to cut Kendal, prior to training camp was late, but still the better than after preseason.

Pete just cleared his physical that day, but clearing is not "perfect health", easy to wonder about that too. Kendal had increasing frequency of neck stingers and some real scary moments last year, did you read some of those articles on him? If you think you are going to have to make this change an have an OL suffer because of it, don't you think it makes sense to do it early and pay the price in your "honeymoon" year. Green knows his clock is running and he also recognized what a mess of an OL he inherited; OL don't come together quickly, we will need a year to see if his moves begin to pay-off.

 

[Mulli]

TG, I have a question for you. Since you have researched this, didn't Dungy coach the defense in Minnesota? Wasn't Billick the offensive coordinator for Green for an extended period of time? I am not trying to stir up trouble with this; I just wanted clarification as to what Dungy had to do with Green's successful record in Minnesota.

 

[Russ Smith]

As you point out, Green has established the reputation for being an "offensive mind".
People keep referring to his great record at Minnesota.

Some of that had to do with having some of the assistant coaches he did....starting with Tony Dungy.

And Tony Dungy was NOT a Dennis Green clone. He was considered a "hot commodity" as a new great young mind...long before Green enticed him to come to Minnesota. And those who have referred to Dungy's praise of Green and how much he learned from him probably also don't take into account that ....what else would you expect Tony Dungy to say? Especially being Tony Dungy? The guy is pure class, himself....why would he want to air "dirty laundry" about Green? Dungy just isn't that type of guy. Is Dennis Green a complete idiot? I don't think so.

Is he over-rated? I say, very possibly. and once again ....."We'll see".

You can't credit Dungy with the Viking offense though, he ran the defense.

And I think Billick has made it clear in Baltimore that it wasn't his genius in Minnesota either, he hasn't exactly turned them into an offensive juggernaut, he was just smart enough to realize the defense was great and keep the offense out of the way.

 

[joeshmo]

Jurecki also stated that Graves signed all these extensions and now Green was basically cutting all these players and exerting his power over the organization.

Finally, Green didn't give Graves ANY warning of Kendall's cutting and Bob Wylie, Green's OL coach says he knew NOTHING about cutting Kendall until he was driving up the hill to TC and heard about it.

Maybe becuase most of those extensions should have never happened in the first place.

As for Wylie or Graves not knowing anything. Is that an exact quote from Graves or Wylie or just speculation from MJ. Unless he quotes them as saying it, or it comes straight from their mouths it is nothing but specualtion IMO. In fact Wylie a few days after Kendall was cut said on MJ shows that he had discusions with Green about the possibility of cutting Kendall after they watched the infamous tapes of the 4 really bad games that Green pointed to as the main reason for cutting Kendall. So Wylie did know that something may happen with Kendall. Plus Graves and Mike have the final say on cuts not Green. So both Wylie and Graves and Mike knew about this cut, simple as that.

MJ may have meant that neither of them had any input on the cut but both of them did know about it before he was cut. Just another way of MJ slanting a story beucase of his bias for Kendall and Mac, and the so called media lock out from Green.

 

[JeffGollin]

Uh well now. Let's see If I have this straight.

We looked awful in a preseason game, a local media guy who's close to the team took a free shot at Denny whom he accuses of undermining his Director of Player Personnel. And everyone is throwing a hissy over this. Is that it?

OK. My take.

1. It's early.

2. Denny has made more than a few moves which have caused me to raise an eye-brow.

3. But I don't have the experience or background to coach the team. Denny does.

4. His team looked bad in the first preseason. (Eyebrow gets raised a bit more).

5. But don't you think it's a bit premature to take shots at him just yet?

6. I'd rather view the first preseason game as a benchmark from which progress must be made and a baseline for measuring that progress.

7. No, I don't buy into the "give him 2 years" comment, but I do say: Give Denny at least til midseason to give us a team that's playing sound, together football and show us that his program is beginning to work. (I'm less concerned about the W's & L's at that point than I am about how well or how poorly we play).

8. If its become obvious by then that nothing at all positive was happening, we'd be justified to bare our fangs more than a little.

9. But til then, I think we should grit our teeth and wait things out in the hope that things will turn out fine.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

We're looking at different measures.

2002 Bengals score 279 points allow 456 and go 2-14. 2003 they score 346 points, allow 384, and go 8-8. That means they score 65 more points, and gave up 72 points less, a 137 point turnaround in one year is pretty significant to me, especially since they did it with largely the same cast of players for the most part. I personally expect them to take a step back this year because Palmer will be starting and he's young, but there's no question that so far Lewis has that team on the right track and in one year he took a horrible team and made them competitive.

That's what I expect this year from Green, and in year 2 I expect a playoff contender, UNLESS he decides to change his QB, in which case we'll all be asking why we passed on Ben.

I disagree with you here Russ. Lewis did not do what he did last year with the same cast as 2003. He basically demoted Dillon, a perennial Pro Bowl RB, and let Takeo Spikes, a perennial Pro Bowl MLB, seek out greener pastures. Half of the 2003 roster wasn't there in 2004. You want to know why he did this? They weren't Marvin Lewis guys. And people in Arizona are crying about us jettisoning Kendall and possibly Shelton? These two bums are about a quarter as good as the two ex-Bengals I mentioned.

Read this article about Cincy and how they used to hold onto past mistakes and keep holding onto an dismal past and how Lewis changed that. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6616387

 

[C-MACK]

Maybe becuase most of those extensions should have never happened in the first place.

QUOTE]


You would think that if DG was going to cut a guy who just got an extension he would have started with Gilmore. I'm still trying to figure out what the Cards were doing him giving him a bonus and extension after his pathetic showing last year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Maybe becuase most of those extensions should have never happened in the first place.

.

Some of them but let's be honest, this board was full of people quoting how much we were under the cap and complaining about it, part of the reason was we saved money to extend certain core players, Graves had to do that based on his opinion, he couldn't call DG at ESPN and ask his advice, and no two people are going to agree on anything.

Hell I remember someone last year posting a quote from Green about us letting Boston go and he wasn't exactly agreeing with our decision. I forget the specifics other than that he said Boston was uncoverable and letting him go for nothing was a mistake.

 

[Espo]

I agree that nobody on this roster should be safe after the futility of the last few seasons under Mac but i aslo think that we all can't drink so much of the koolaide that we don't question anything Green does. Green should not have a free pass.

 

[Tangodnzr]

TG, I have a question for you. Since you have researched this, didn't Dungy coach the defense in Minnesota? Wasn't Billick the offensive coordinator for Green for an extended period of time? I am not trying to stir up trouble with this; I just wanted clarification as to what Dungy had to do with Green's successful record in Minnesota.

You are right.

I should have clarified that.

Dungy was/is a defensive "mind". He came up as a player and first coached in the Steeler organization, under head coach Chuck Knoll. In 1989 Marty Schottenheimer hired him as DB coach in Kansas City before Green lured him to Minnesota in 1992 with the DC job. Billick was hired in 1993 as OC/QB coach to replace Jack Burns. I would have to do some double checking, as I don't, off the cuff, remember Billick's history before that..and would have to reiview and double check it.
I do think a case could probaby be made that he was more influenced in his coaching style than Dungy was.

..and anyone who thinks Tony Dungy didn't make a big contribution to Green's success, even though he "handled" the defense....I would probably say...needs a little history lesson.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Yep, Aerospace industry...I know it isn't a dance studio or anything...

Need a website or intranet portal made red

</shamlessplugformorework>

 

[Redheart]

Redheart, Mj is just doing his job. We all can't drink the koolaide like you. I think it was pretty obvious on saturday that some of these guys weren't buying what Green's selling. It looked as if some of those guys, ala Shelton, were just going throught he motions. I am not completely sold on Green. Feel free to tell me all of his wins and stats with other teams but this is a "what have you done for me lately" business and in the last two years Green has less wins then Mac, Green has 0 because no one would hire him. He has an ego and if he and Graves are fighting for power this is going to get ugly just like it got ugly in Minnesota for Green. When this team shows some improvement from the 4-12 team they were last year then ill give Green his props. Until then I can't give him the free pass we all have afforded him thus far. I will trust Green knows what he's doing but i won't blindly follow everything and i will be objective to what he is doing.

I am optimistic by having a "real" head-coach for the first time in a decade, that is not drinking cool-aid.

We have not even had one regular season under Green, how is that a free-pass. Mac had three-years of soft-ball by the same MJ who was "doing his job"?

IF MJ is doing his job, it is not in a objective way, if you think he is you need to stop drinking media-coolaid, I know you were an intern and are now in the business. Stay objective and I will enjoy following your career.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

As a reporter just like a fan you are going to have likes and dislikes. Nothing wrong with expressing those. Why does it piss you off?

He is constantly around the team and players he should have a good feel for whats going on!

The reason it pisses me off is because lately it seems that this is all that he talks about. Now I only get to hear them for 1 hour on my way into work, but still during that hour, it seems that most of his comments are about what Green has done wrong, or is doing wrong, or will do wrong.

I have called in and politely said "hey enough about this talk to us about Cardinals FOOTBALL" and they will usually snap out of it for a little bit. But the show just seems to be taking a strange path right now and one that I dont care to hear constantly.

I have always like MJ's insight, because he is around the team alot. But give us something new for god sake!

 

[Russ Smith]

I disagree with you here Russ. Lewis did not do what he did last year with the same cast as 2003. He basically demoted Dillon, a perennial Pro Bowl RB, and let Takeo Spikes, a perennial Pro Bowl MLB, seek out greener pastures. Half of the 2003 roster wasn't there in 2004. You want to know why he did this? They weren't Marvin Lewis guys. And people in Arizona are crying about us jettisoning Kendall and possibly Shelton? These two bums are about a quarter as good as the two ex-Bengals I mentioned.

Read this article about Cincy and how they used to hold onto past mistakes and keep holding onto an dismal past and how Lewis changed that. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6616387

Part of what he did was take the same players but use them differently, one of which was Dillon(who was hurt.)

I don't see a parallel to Kendall, I don't see anybody Lewis cut, who was an admitted starter but was cut for some other reason.

And the "core" guys on that offense were the same, the QB, the WR's, when Dillon got hurt Johnson stepped up. He certainly did a nice job of picking up players to fit his system, I don't deny that, but what he basically did is change the turnover margin from horrible to good in one year, largely by getting the same QB to stop turning the ball over.

I don't follow them close enough to have a complete list of how many changes he made, but even if there is a parallel, that just reinforces my point, if Lewis can take that team up 6 years in one year, and Green is(in your opinion) doing the same things Lewis did, why are we saying Green needs 2 years? Remember Cincy's history is almost as bad as ours.