Kyler Murray is a Rookie

[Vacard]

5’9 190. Wilson looks both taller and thicker.

Russ is 5'11
Kyler is 5'10 and looks like it in that pic. And RUss is bigger NOW. But height is clearly defined and undisputed.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

He has had about 5 good performances this year (Cin, Atl, SFx2 and TB). The other 8 games were kind of scattered between bad to average (his overall performance against Detroit I would say was decent).

He has yet to have a completely terrible game (such as 4+ turnovers or anything quite like that), but has had a few legit bad performances including this game today. Though today's game was probably one really bad decision to throw away from at least being a decent game.

Three INT's and an unforced fumble that he recovered. Close enough.

 

[Veer]

Thread title checks out. KM has had a superb rookie season until the bye, considering the cards he's been dealt: bad OL, WRs who can't seperate, rookie HC/OC getting his first NFL coaching experience. Since after the bye, defenses are totally crashing down on us. Our OL, that looked at times like being not among the worst units out there, has returned to its 2018 ways. You can tell KM is clearly rattled and it hurt his usually sound decision-making. At the end of the day, what we are seeing after the bye is most likely something like the infamous "sophomore" slump. KM has hit a plateau, although it's not all on him. I'm confident he will get better next season. The question is: can we bolster the OL and defense to where we are at least below average and not rock bottom...

 

[swagron]

Russ is 5'11
Kyler is 5'10 and looks like it in that pic. And RUss is bigger NOW. But height is clearly defined and undisputed.

Tomato, tomatoe. I guess the proof of greatness will be in wins/losses. All the other stuff doesn’t matter much.

 

[Vacard]

Tomato, tomatoe. I guess the proof of greatness will be in wins/losses. All the other stuff doesn’t matter much.

Now we moving goalposts when the proof is in the pooding, swell.

 

[Chopper0080]

Now we moving goalposts when the proof is in the pooding, swell.

I am sure Swag learned from all of the "Murray is a franchise QB" threads.

 

[Broseph]

I’m betting we could find many similar posts like this last year when it came to Josh Rosen.
That’s not a knock on you but people on here defend Murray like he’s their kid and he can do no wrong.

To me, Rosen never showed the arm talent or accuracy that Murray has, both were put in crappy situations.

 

[TheCardFan]

To me, Rosen never showed the arm talent or accuracy that Murray has, both were put in crappy situations.

Exactly.

I was 100% a Rosen supporter last year and saying the same thing about the talent around him. The bottom line is Murray is way better than Rosen.

 

[Stout]

Exactly.

I was 100% a Rosen supporter last year and saying the same thing about the talent around him. The bottom line is Murray is way better than Rosen.

Maybe he WILL be better, but where are his 4th-quarter comeback wins? Rosen was in a way worse situation, and managed a few of those. People parroting the above line should remember that. Murray isn't ANYTHING yet--nor is Rosen. Murray is potential and NOTHING else at this point.

 

[TheCardFan]

Maybe he WILL be better, but where are his 4th-quarter comeback wins? Rosen was in a way worse situation, and managed a few of those. People parroting the above line should remember that. Murray isn't ANYTHING yet--nor is Rosen. Murray is potential and NOTHING else at this point.

Not comparing Murray to Mahomes.

Its clear that Murray is much more talented than Rosen. Period.

Don't get it twisted.

 

[Stout]

Not comparing Murray to Mahomes.

Its clear that Murray is much more talented than Rosen. Period.

Don't get it twisted.

He's not lifted the team more, not yet. Talent? Lots of talents never make it. We can pin our hopes on talent--and I do have hope for KM--but until he masters the absolute basics of being a good NFL QB, that talent will NOT out. Come talk to me when he can throw the ball away or stop directly causing his own sacks. I would have expected significant improvement in those areas by now from someone so talented.

 

[kerouac9]

Not comparing Murray to Mahomes.

Its clear that Murray is much more talented than Rosen. Period.

Don't get it twisted.

I don't understand why people have to constantly talk about Josh Rosen when Kyler Murray is criticized.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm going to say it again. The year 1 to year 2 jump is real. Let's get this kid some protection and a full offseason and then see what happens.

With that being said..... He made some boneheaded errors yesterday. He continues to impress me with his learning curve so I will hope that he learns, moves on, and doesn't repeat that often.

The only thing that concerns me is that he isn't able to get to the edge consistently like a Lamar level QB can. Compound that with a JJ Arrington level of avoiding tackles gives me pause.

He must learn to break out of the pocket, and explode to the edge. And to also be able to not be brought down by one hand, or to sit down instead of throwing it away.


With all that being said....... We are light years ahead of last year. Just get this guy some consistent line play and we will see some fireworks.

 

[Stout]

[QUOTE="Dr. Jones, post: 4104341, member: 1783"]I'm going to say it again. The year 1 to year 2 jump is real. Let's get this kid some protection and a full offseason and then see what happens.

With that being said..... He made some boneheaded errors yesterday. He continues to impress me with his learning curve so I will hope that he learns, moves on, and doesn't repeat that often.

The only thing that concerns me is that he isn't able to get to the edge consistently like a Lamar level QB can. Compound that with a JJ Arrington level of avoiding tackles gives me pause.

He must learn to break out of the pocket, and explode to the edge. And to also be able to not be brought down by one hand, or to sit down instead of throwing it away.


With all that being said....... We are light years ahead of last year. Just get this guy some consistent line play and we will see some fireworks.[/QUOTE]

This, and much of the rest of this post could easily have been said last season. I'm just not seeing this mass improvement and so much more hope for the future than with our last 1st-round pick. Granted, I'm looking through a lens of only a few games watched, but I sure in the heck am not seeing it.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm going to say it again. The year 1 to year 2 jump is real. Let's get this kid some protection and a full offseason and then see what happens.

With that being said..... He made some boneheaded errors yesterday. He continues to impress me with his learning curve so I will hope that he learns, moves on, and doesn't repeat that often.

The only thing that concerns me is that he isn't able to get to the edge consistently like a Lamar level QB can. Compound that with a JJ Arrington level of avoiding tackles gives me pause.

He must learn to break out of the pocket, and explode to the edge. And to also be able to not be brought down by one hand, or to sit down instead of throwing it away.


With all that being said....... We are light years ahead of last year. Just get this guy some consistent line play and we will see some fireworks.

The 2nd year jump argument goes both ways. He is going to get better but other teams are going to get more tape on him as well.

For me, Kyler has showed all of the question marks I had for him pre-draft.

He looks inexperienced.

He looks like he has spotty fundamentals.

He looks unprepared to start games.

He struggles in big moments and in adversity.

He looks like he can't elevate talent around him.

###

These things can all change, but it should be concerning that they are all still present in week 14.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I don't understand why people have to constantly talk about Josh Rosen when Kyler Murray is criticized.

I think it provides the "where we were to where we are" context.

In an alternate universe....... Rosen is still our QB and we are staring down the barrel of being even more pot-committed to a dude who isn't really good at any QB related skills.

From that (bottom 5 QB)..... to this (middle of the pack QB with the potential for superstar level)...... is stark IMO. BUT..... we still have a long way to go.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This, and much of the rest of this post could easily have been said last season. I'm just not seeing this mass improvement and so much more hope for the future than with our last 1st-round pick. Granted, I'm looking through a lens of only a few games watched, but I sure in the heck am not seeing it.

Meh... Not in my opinion. There was never a time I thought Rosen could make a Top 5 DVOA list. Ever. Or have an elite rated game by PFF standards.

We have that possibility now.

 

[BigRedRage]

Its Kyler cheerleaders like you who refuse to even admit Murray has bad games or makes costly mistakes.I don`t give a rats ass if you and your fellow Murrayites worship him.....post whatever the hell you want...just don`t get pissed if others post the opposite.As for treating Murray like a redheaded stepchild...I don`t think so.Just because you and some other Murray fanboys adore and worship the ground he walks on...…….that doesn`t mean everyone else does.BTW I was not complaining to Dscher about his posts ..I was teasing him a bit.But don`t let that stop you in your continuing role as the leader of the Murray-Anti-Criticism league.

A rare admission of KM playing poorly doesn`t change you from being a KM apologist BUD.Nice fail .

]You're a pleasure to have around.

 

[Dr. Jones]

The 2nd year jump argument goes both ways. He is going to get better but other teams are going to get more tape on him as well.

For me, Kyler has showed all of the question marks I had for him pre-draft.

He looks inexperienced.

He looks like he has spotty fundamentals.

He looks unprepared to start games.

He struggles in big moments and in adversity.

He looks like he can't elevate talent around him.

###

These things can all change, but it should be concerning that they are all still present in week 14.

Fair. And I think it is reasonable to be skeptical about those things.

He could also go to the Baker Mayfield place and start stinking up the joint. Who knows for sure.

I think his talent deserves a little more protection. Our line has gotten noticeably worse since we started playing teams (and defenses) who are in the playoff hunt or on their way to a bye.

1 to 2 of the positions need to be upgraded IMO. With RT at the very top of the list. Center would be awesome as well.

 

[TheCardFan]

I don't understand why people have to constantly talk about Josh Rosen when Kyler Murray is criticized.

Depends on the context.

Some conversation is in regard to keeping Rosen vs Murray but other topics are just Murray as a rookie. Its only natural to compare our new franchise QB to the one we drafted last year. In fact, take out the names Murray and Rosen and the comments from last year/this year are nearly identical. Except for one particular poster who contradicts himself.

 

[Stout]

Meh... Not in my opinion. There was never a time I thought Rosen could make a Top 5 DVOA list. Ever. Or have an elite rated game by PFF standards.

We have that possibility now.

I'm not even going to consider the possibility until he masters the absolute basics of being a good NFL QB. Which hasn't happened yet.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm not even going to consider the possibility until he masters the absolute basics of being a good NFL QB. Which hasn't happened yet.

Guess that depends on your definition. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1632018-how-do-scouts-break-down-nfl-quarterback-prospects

This kid has:

Accuracy
Arm Talent
Release
Intelligence
Quick Feet
Mobility

What he needs is:
Pocket Presence
Maybe Leadership & Poise. Too early to tell on this one IMO.
Vision.

What he will never have:
Size

Personally..... he is playing like crap against top shelf opponents, receiving very little protection, and making some good plays and some bad/boneheaded plays.

Problem is that Boneheaded plays (Haden & Watt) will kill you much quicker than a dime TD pass to DJ will.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The only thing that concerns me is that he isn't able to get to the edge consistently like a Lamar level QB can. Compound that with a JJ Arrington level of avoiding tackles gives me pause.

He must learn to break out of the pocket, and explode to the edge. And to also be able to not be brought down by one hand, or to sit down instead of throwing it away.

here's my issue with the above... I think you're talking about things that can't be learned. Speed on the edge isn't a skill to be learned. it's an athletic ability and while he might run fast in the forty, his game speed just isn't anything near Jackson, which is the thing that makes Jackson so impossible to stop. He also doesn't have Jackson quick twitch cutback ability. I'll be honest, I didn't watch him at all in college but the way y'all talked his ground game, I have been really taken aback by how unspecial it is. And note, I'm not saying it's average. It's better than most QBs, but right now Josh Allen has been just as effective of a running QB.

and to the second point about him being brought down by anyone who lays a glove on him, again, my concern is size isn't something that can be learned. His size is what it is and if you're advocating he needs to bulk up and get stronger, that will only detract from the mobility, that right now still isn't anything special. Again, the best QB/runners in the game all make more plays happen because they can't be brought down by one hand.

those are my big fears. I think even with the above, he can develop into a good solid QB, but I doubt the whole top 5 QB thing because he just doesn't have the speed/size to get to next level.

 

[WildBB]

Guess that depends on your definition. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1632018-how-do-scouts-break-down-nfl-quarterback-prospects

This kid has:

Accuracy
Arm Talent
Release
Intelligence
Quick Feet
Mobility

What he needs is:
Pocket Presence
Maybe Leadership & Poise. Too early to tell on this one IMO.
Vision.

What he will never have:
Size

Personally..... he is playing like crap against top shelf opponents, receiving very little protection, and making some good plays and some bad/boneheaded plays.

Problem is that Boneheaded plays (Haden & Watt) will kill you much quicker than a dime TD pass to DJ will.

He needs time still and upgrades along the OL. Garropolo has even struggled when he didn't get time. And his OL is much more talented than Cardinals'. They actually have a run game to complement him!

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

here's my issue with the above... I think you're talking about things that can't be learned. Speed on the edge isn't a skill to be learned. it's an athletic ability and while he might run fast in the forty, his game speed just isn't anything near Jackson, which is the thing that makes Jackson so impossible to stop. He also doesn't have Jackson quick twitch cutback ability. I'll be honest, I didn't watch him at all in college but the way y'all talked his ground game, I have been really taken aback by how unspecial it is. And note, I'm not saying it's average. It's better than most QBs, but right now Josh Allen has been just as effective of a running QB.

and to the second point about him being brought down by anyone who lays a glove on him, again, my concern is size isn't something that can be learned. His size is what it is and if you're advocating he needs to bulk up and get stronger, that will only detract from the mobility, that right now still isn't anything special. Again, the best QB/runners in the game all make more plays happen because they can't be brought down by one hand.

those are my big fears. I think even with the above, he can develop into a good solid QB, but I doubt the whole top 5 QB thing because he just doesn't have the speed/size to get to next level.

I think one thing is being overlooked in the comparison. Most of Lamar's runs to the perimeter are on read option plays where the power run game of Ingram sucks the defense inside and LJ keeps the ball instead and goes outside. We are not running a whole lot of read option plays and when we do it is not nearly as effective as we don't have the inside running success that they do.

Purely when scrambling I believe Kyler is right up there with Lamar as he is as quick or quicker and accelerates just as fast if not faster. Where LJ clearly has him beat is his top speed and his willingness/ability to break through tackles. LJ also has a much stronger group of blockers giving him lanes in the run game.