KVB and TJ updates.....

[Krangodnzr]

Texans | Potential Suitor for Cardinals’ Jones? - from www.KFFL.com
Wed, 7 May 2003 20:42:06 -0700

Darren Urban, of the East Valley Tribune, reports the Houston Texans are a possible trading partner for the Arizona Cardinals when it comes to them departing with RB Thomas Jones, who remains on the trading block.


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Cardinals | Jones Still on Trading Block - from www.KFFL.com
Wed, 7 May 2003 20:41:42 -0700

Darren Urban, of the East Valley Tribune, reports the Arizona Cardinals are still trying to trade RB Thomas Jones. Jones didn’t take part in their recent minicamp and he’s not taking part in their current workouts. The Cardinals are willing to trade Jones for either a player or a conditional draft choice.


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Cardinals | Vanden Bosch Unsure of Future - from www.KFFL.com
Wed, 7 May 2003 20:41:09 -0700

Darren Urban, of the East Valley Tribune, reports Arizona Cardinals DE Kyle Vanden Bosch continues to be penciled in as a starter at defensive end. However, with rookie DE Calvin Pace being taken in the first-round and behind Vanden Bosch on the depth chart, Vanden Bosch isn’t sure exactly what role he’ll play in 2003. He is willing to move to the left side – or anywhere else – if the team asks him to.


I heard Jurecki talk about TJ being offered to Houston. He said it would be either a pick or player though I can't think a player that they would give up that we would want. The pick could be conditional.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Send HOU TJ and a 3rd for Corey Bradford and a 4th....

 

[pinnacle]

Houston Texans have 9 Defensive backs on their roster..What is interesting is that all 9 are veterans...None are 2003 draft picks or 2003 Undrafted rookie free agents...and 2 were picked up from other teams this offseason (now why would they do that?).

Starters:
Marcus Coleman
Aaron Glenn

Backups:
Jason Bell
Demarcus Faggins (new to roster)
Brandon Jennings
Jason Simmons (ASU - new to roster)
Kenny Wright

Injured last season
Pat Dennis
Derrick Vaughn

What will they keep...5 of the 9? So..4 veterans are cut candidates.

At running back...they have:
stacey Mack
a rookie 4th round draft pick
and a undrafted rookie free agent

Seems they need a backup running back...and jones is a big time changeup for mack - who is a bruiser.

Wonder if we have any eye on one of their cornerbacks? basically trading 2 guys who will be cut (jones and a houston cb) by their respective teams..but if houston thinks jones would be a good backup and the cards like one of their backup corners...they may work something out...

 

[ajcardfan]

If the Cardinals can get a six pack of Shiner's Bock for TJ they should take it.

 

[SweetD]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
If the Cardinals can get a six pack of Shiner's Bock for TJ they should take it.

SOLD!
I will give you five Shiner's and I will take TJ from you....

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[Alphaman]

Frankly, I think the Cardinals made an error before the draft by turning down the Chiefs offer. That being said, I'd still like to see the Chiefs make a deal for Jones. I do think that leverage has shifted back to KC in such a deal. I would think a conditional 7th (possibly becoming a 6th) for Jones or Snoop Minnis for Thomas Jones AND a conditional 7th (possibly becoming a 6th) would be fair. Thoughts???

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Alphaman
Frankly, I think the Cardinals made an error before the draft by turning down the Chiefs offer. That being said, I'd still like to see the Chiefs make a deal for Jones. I do think that leverage has shifted back to KC in such a deal. I would think a conditional 7th (possibly becoming a 6th) for Jones or Snoop Minnis for Thomas Jones AND a conditional 7th (possibly becoming a 6th) would be fair. Thoughts???

Why would they even want to make this trade after they drafted Larry Johnson? They'd be doing us a favor. For our gratitude?

I think that we should be calling Chicago, Jacksonville, Pittsburgh maybe, Detroit (where I actually think he'd be a great fit), Dallas, New England, maybe Tennesee, possibly Indy once training camps start (they always seem to have someone blow out their knee in the first week of camp), and continue with Texas. I'm not sure there are a whole lot of teams looking for quality backups now.

 

[Alphaman]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Why would they even want to make this trade after they drafted Larry Johnson? They'd be doing us a favor. For our gratitude?

I think that we should be calling Chicago, Jacksonville, Pittsburgh maybe, Detroit (where I actually think he'd be a great fit), Dallas, New England, maybe Tennesee, possibly Indy once training camps start (they always seem to have someone blow out their knee in the first week of camp), and continue with Texas. I'm not sure there are a whole lot of teams looking for quality backups now.

Fair question. I'd like to see KC acquire Jones because you can never tell how quickly a rookie will make the transition and because whenever you can upgrade your depth you should. I don't like our 3rd RB for our offense. He's more of a 3rd down back and our offense doesn't really use a 3rd down back. Also, competition is always good. Jones and Johnson competing to backup Holmes would be good for our team, IMHO.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Alphaman
Frankly, I think the Cardinals made an error before the draft by turning down the Chiefs offer. That being said, I'd still like to see the Chiefs make a deal for Jones. I do think that leverage has shifted back to KC in such a deal. I would think a conditional 7th (possibly becoming a 6th) for Jones or Snoop Minnis for Thomas Jones AND a conditional 7th (possibly becoming a 6th) would be fair. Thoughts???

Frankly I dont think the Cardinals made a mistake. There were obviously several teams that were interested..get the most out of him you can. So they gambled, and the gamble hasn't paid off yet. So basically right now we have nothing in TJ...if we end up cutting him we end up with exactly what we started with...nothing. No gain no loss. But if we strike a smokin deal then bonus.

Its kinda like being at the Casino. If you have 5 bucks left you either continue play the same $5 table and possibly win $5 or do you lay it for some bigger odds with the chance to win $20? The Cardinals are playing for the bigger payout with the downside being they leave with what they already had.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Alphaman
Fair question. I'd like to see KC acquire Jones because you can never tell how quickly a rookie will make the transition and because whenever you can upgrade your depth you should. I don't like our 3rd RB for our offense. He's more of a 3rd down back and our offense doesn't really use a 3rd down back. Also, competition is always good. Jones and Johnson competing to backup Holmes would be good for our team, IMHO.

The problem with that is that, as we all know, a RB generally doesn't need time to "adjust to the pro game," as a WR or QB might have to. They tend to either sink or swim. Personally, I think that TJ has the talent and skills to play at this level, but failed to be motivated in a non-competitive environment here. But, KC is going to invest a seven-figure signing bonus for this guy Johnson, and I don't think they're going to be that excited to give up any draft pick for a guy with one year left on his contract. Further, I don't think that TJ would be particularly interested in re-working his deal to be traded to a place where he'll be #3 on the depth chart, with almost to way to move up the depth chart in front of an All-Pro RB and #1 rookie. That's why I think a deal in KC might be untenable. As a KC fan, would you really like to see the Chiefs to deal away a potentially low-risk, high-reward pick and a possible four-year player to rent a guy for one year to sit on the bench? I wouldn't be.

 

[Goldfield]

If w cant get more than a 5th rounder I would much rather cut his butt! It would at least be more fun...

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by BEERZ
If w cant get more than a 5th rounder I would much rather cut his butt! It would at least be more fun...

That sounds like a really stupid, unprofessional way to run a business. Ahman Green was a late-round draft choice. As was that rookie TE for the Dolphins last year. 5th Round choices are worth something. Sometimes you strike gold. I don't understand why someone would rather have nothing than something. I don't agree on waiting through the draft, but I understand. Waiving him because the organization or fans don't like him, when you can get something of value to the franchise for him, makes no sense to me whatsoever.

There are a lot of things that you can do with a 5th round pick. Besides exercise it, you can trade it along with another pick to move up in a round. You can trade it to a team for a higher pick in the next year (in three years, it would be a 2nd round pick), you can get a low-risk, high-reward player and let him develop for a couple years (like an LB or CB).

To release someone because you don't like him anymore is something the old Cardinals would do. To make a point that this organization has truly turned the corner, it would make sense to think ahead, and act accordingly.

 

[Alphaman]

Originally posted by kerouac9
The problem with that is that, as we all know, a RB generally doesn't need time to "adjust to the pro game," as a WR or QB might have to. They tend to either sink or swim. Personally, I think that TJ has the talent and skills to play at this level, but failed to be motivated in a non-competitive environment here. But, KC is going to invest a seven-figure signing bonus for this guy Johnson, and I don't think they're going to be that excited to give up any draft pick for a guy with one year left on his contract. Further, I don't think that TJ would be particularly interested in re-working his deal to be traded to a place where he'll be #3 on the depth chart, with almost to way to move up the depth chart in front of an All-Pro RB and #1 rookie. That's why I think a deal in KC might be untenable. As a KC fan, would you really like to see the Chiefs to deal away a potentially low-risk, high-reward pick and a possible four-year player to rent a guy for one year to sit on the bench? I wouldn't be.

You make very good points and I think in the end you are correct. I think the Chiefs are out of the bidding for Jones. We may put a claim in for him once he is released, but my guess is that the Texans will do so as well and they will get him.

 

[Alphaman]

Originally posted by EndZone
Frankly I dont think the Cardinals made a mistake. There were obviously several teams that were interested..get the most out of him you can. So they gambled, and the gamble hasn't paid off yet. So basically right now we have nothing in TJ...if we end up cutting him we end up with exactly what we started with...nothing. No gain no loss. But if we strike a smokin deal then bonus.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think you overestimate the number of teams that were "interested". Miami rebuffed your advances to deal him to them. New Orleans wanted no part of him as well, when you were reportedly desparate to move him on draft day. KC is the only team to reportedly make an offer for him. At the time, the Cardinals were smart to wait because they held considerable leverage prior to the draft on the Chiefs. However, once it became known that the Chiefs were willing to spend their 1st round pick on a RB, the Cardinals lost that leverage and should have worked a deal for a low round pick on draft day.

The Cardinals won't get a "smokin deal" at this point. The best they'll get is a conditional 7th round pick for a guy that WILL be released.

 

[Sack Daddy]

I think the Cards' made the right choice to hold of on trading TJ. Houston had a terrible offense and that's why they struggled (that and being an expansion team). However, they played pretty good defense. If we could score a DB out of the deal, we should do it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Thomas Jones

I always like to put heat on Thomas Jones. Yes, he is a bust. But who knew it would be this bad. I think we should try and trade him but if not. Just let the man go. Kinda like Jake Plummer. Just let him leave and let some team, "snicker", try to do something with him. But I don't think we can get anything for him.


At worst we make him the team waterboy. At least he will get the water out there to the players fast enough.

 

[Northern Card]

Thomas Jones - bust! - at best a waterboy in the desert, but seemingly good enough to be a no. 1 backup on some other team.

Who the hell are we! The defending Super Bowl Champs?

His days with the CARDS are probably numbered, but I won't soon forget his game against Seattle, followed by an unfortunate high ankle sprain that prevented him from showing if that game was an abberation or indicating more good things to come.

Frankly, if we can't get value and an answer to our needs in a trade, I'm torn between bringing him to camp or cutting him. And I agree with Graves that the organization is better off letting him go than taking some 6th. round pick or conditional this or that.

Better he simply be cut than hearing for years to come how the CARDS gave up on a first rounder, who later put things together, for Joe Shmoo from Buzzards Breath College.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Frankly, if we can't get value and an answer to our needs in a trade, I'm torn between bringing him to camp or cutting him. And I agree with Graves that the organization is better off letting him go than taking some 6th. round pick or conditional this or that.

Better he simply be cut than hearing for years to come how the CARDS gave up on a first rounder, who later put things together, for Joe Shmoo from Buzzards Breath College.

I don't understand this line of thinking at all. How is it better to get nothing at all than to get something that you didn't have before, in exchange for something that you would have given away later? Explain to me how it is better to get Joe Shmoe instead of no one. Is, "well, at least we got Foster for him" worse than, "We have this guy who gained 1200 yard last season away for nothing!"?

I'm confused. Can someone make sense of this argument for me?

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't understand this line of thinking at all. How is it better to get nothing at all than to get something that you didn't have before, in exchange for something that you would have given away later? Explain to me how it is better to get Joe Shmoe instead of no one. Is, "well, at least we got Foster for him" worse than, "We have this guy who gained 1200 yard last season away for nothing!"?

I'm confused. Can someone make sense of this argument for me?

Bacause Joe is a SHMOO...

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't understand this line of thinking at all. How is it better to get nothing at all than to get something that you didn't have before, in exchange for something that you would have given away later? Explain to me how it is better to get Joe Shmoe instead of no one. Is, "well, at least we got Foster for him" worse than, "We have this guy who gained 1200 yard last season away for nothing!"?

I'm confused. Can someone make sense of this argument for me?

Did I anywhere say it was BETTER to get nothing than get something? NO I didn't I said right now he is nothing to us we can't do WORSE. Might as well get as much as possible and if it backfires then you are no worse then you started. Don't try to mix words and make something out of this that it isn't.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't understand this line of thinking at all. How is it better to get nothing at all than to get something that you didn't have before, in exchange for something that you would have given away later? Explain to me how it is better to get Joe Shmoe instead of no one. Is, "well, at least we got Foster for him" worse than, "We have this guy who gained 1200 yard last season away for nothing!"?

I'm confused. Can someone make sense of this argument for me?

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"Well kerouac, let see if I can explain this...

You see...hmmm..well you know...ummm...sorry, I can't possibly explain what I was thinking...

I mean I had a chance to get something, ANYTHING, in return for giving Mr. Jones his walking papers...but I overestimated our ability to bend another team over the barrel to get more than anyone was willing to give up for the rights to Mr. Jones...that coupled with the fact that I thought New Orleans would return the favor, and give us their 4th round pick...

Well, that about sums it up!

I made a mistake!

I blundered!

Sue me!

Hahahahahaha...

get it? Sue me!

Hahahahahaha...

Ta-ta for now..."

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by EndZone
Did I anywhere say it was BETTER to get nothing than get something? NO I didn't I said right now he is nothing to us we can't do WORSE. Might as well get as much as possible and if it backfires then you are no worse then you started. Don't try to mix words and make something out of this that it isn't.

Yes, you said "If w cant get more than a 5th rounder I would much rather cut his butt! It would at least be more fun..." [sic]. I don't understand this. You and Northern Card make no sense to me. I don't understand why you'd rather get nothing than something, no matter how little that something is.

How is this twisting your words?

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by EndZone
Did I anywhere say it was BETTER to get nothing than get something?

I think that he was refering to this quote.

Originally posted by Northern Card
And I agree with Graves that the organization is better off letting him go than taking some 6th. round pick or conditional this or that.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Yes, you said "If w cant get more than a 5th rounder I would much rather cut his butt! It would at least be more fun..." [sic]. I don't understand this. You and Northern Card make no sense to me. I don't understand why you'd rather get nothing than something, no matter how little that something is.

Seriously, if the organization is as down on T.J. as they seem to be then anything should be good enough!

To place some sort of "benchmark" on any deal involving a player that everyone knows that you are planning on outright cutting at some point is asinine!

You take what you can get, you cut your losses, you learn from the mistake, you move on, end of story!

 

[EndZone]

Actually Northern Card said that not me. I saw the begining of the reply that you quoted and that it was mine...my bad.