LakeShowMan
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golfcardfan said:
You feel better now?
I will say this though, running TITLE smack at a guy that has already won 3 of them, ain't to bright.
Kobe pours in 81!
- Thread starter sly fly
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You feel better now?
I will say this though, running TITLE smack at a guy that has already won 3 of them, ain't to bright.
Arizona's Finest
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LakeShowMan said:
Completly agree....we are in a better position to win right now.....but its not like the NBA was established this year. The worst thing i have seen when trash talking to a Laker fan is when BIM had an empty shelf in a post and said "The Suns Trophy Case"....That hurt...but what they hell can we say to that?
I will admit i like the Lakers slightly better than i absolutly loathe every other division opponent in every other sport i like, because i grew up in LA, attended alot of games, and i appreciate they are the one true west coast dynasty.
But thats not the reason i defend Kobe like i do. You see i watch basketball and although the Suns are my favorite team (BY A LARGE MARGIN) I can appreciate greatness. Im not a Tim Duncan or Spurs fan either but i will defend him to anyone who wants to think he is overratted. Its just the nature of the beast.
And yes this is a Suns board, but we can discuss other NBA topics....
Saying all that....How long of a winning streak do we have against the Lakers and the demi-god that is Bryant? I think its at 6. So back to the drawing board Lakers fans until you can take out the new threat to the future of the West........
fordronken
Registered User
Arizona's Finest said:
It's one thing to think that your opinion means more than anyone else's, but putting it in a really big font may be a bit much.
Arizona's Finest
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fordronken said:
I agree and will edit that....thats the ol' cut and paste for ya
fordronken
Registered User
Arizona's Finest said:
Ah. Sorry. But it was a tad over-the-top.
LakeShowMan
Registered
Arizona's Finest said:
Completly agree....we are in a better position to win right now.....but its not like the NBA was established this year. The worst thing i have seen when trash talking to a Laker fan is when BIM had an empty shelf in a post and said "The Suns Trophy Case"....That hurt...but what they hell can we say to that?
I will admit i like the Lakers slightly better than i absolutly loathe every other division opponent in every other sport i like, because i grew up in LA, attended alot of games, and i appreciate they are the one true west coast dynasty.
But thats not the reason i defend Kobe like i do. You see i watch basketball and although the Suns are my favorite team (BY A LARGE MARGIN) I can appreciate greatness. Im not a Tim Duncan or Spurs fan either but i will defend him to anyone who wants to think he is overratted. Its just the nature of the beast.
And yes this is a Suns board, but we can discuss other NBA topics....
Saying all that....How long of a winning streak do we have against the Lakers and the demi-god that is Bryant? I think its at 6. So back to the drawing board Lakers fans until you can take out the new threat to the future of the West........
I agree with you completely, even on the part about the Suns dominating the Lakers lately.
The Laker team as currently comprised is not Western conference contender, much less a contender to win the title. That said, they are in the second year of a rebuilding process, and I would much rather have a Kobe Bryant to build on then any other player that is currently on a rebuilding team.
I also have never understood the point in denigrating another player just because they play for another team. AS I said before I HATE Michae Jordan, but I begrudingly admit his greatness, and would never try to arbitrarily take away any of his accomplishments.
Another example that may be more current. I am a huge Browns fan, and it absolutely kills me to see the Steelers play like they are right now. I hope with every fiber of my being that the Seahawks find a way to beat them. However, no one will hear me run Super Bowl title smack on Terry Bradshaw.
Arizona's Finest said:
Completly agree....we are in a better position to win right now.....but its not like the NBA was established this year. The worst thing i have seen when trash talking to a Laker fan is when BIM had an empty shelf in a post and said "The Suns Trophy Case"....That hurt...but what they hell can we say to that?
That's funny, but the Suns at least don't hang conference championship banners in the building and parade around like they won something (hint hint Sacramento).
The Suns are primed to succeed within the next few years, and I firmly believe the Lakers will be right back there again as well. But running title smack on a franchise whose goal is no longer to win a championships, but to win MORE championships than anyone else and has been to half of the NBA Finals ever played, well it's a tad bit overzealous.
abomb said:
I still don't buy that those were their banners. I think they belonged to the Scorch, or the Mercury, or the whatevertheladiesnba is called.
SactownSunsFan
Welcome to the Age of Ayton
Arizona's Finest said:
I will admit i like the Lakers slightly better than i absolutly loathe every other division opponent in every other sport i like, because i grew up in LA, attended alot of games, and i appreciate they are the one true west coast dynasty.
*Cough* 49ers *Cough*
The San Francisco 49ers' reign of football supremacy -- 18 seasons <1981-1998> during which they won five Super Bowls and appeared in ten NFC title games. In 280 games, they compiled a 207-72-1 record, good for a 73.9 winning percentage. That averages to just under a 12-4 record per season for 18 consecutive seasons.
Last edited:
Don't bring up SHAQ's 3 rings kobe has won 0 without SHAQ. Every one of their title are a direct result of having the most dominant C in the NBA.
SHAQ has 3 rings HE earned kobe was along for the ride. Until Kobe wins a championship being the key player it will always be looked upon as SHAQ's championship team
SHAQ has 3 rings HE earned kobe was along for the ride. Until Kobe wins a championship being the key player it will always be looked upon as SHAQ's championship team
SactownSunsFan
Welcome to the Age of Ayton
golfcardfan said:
Sorry to say, but until Shaq wins a ring without Kobe, your argument holds no water.
LakeShowMan
Registered
golfcardfan said:
You must not have watched the three championship runs then. There is no way in hell they win those without Kobe Bryant.
Blind haterism at it's best. At this point, there is no reason to continue this 'debate' because obviously you can not talk rationally on the subject.
LakeShowMan said:
He should ask San Antonio how important Kobe was to the run.
Boy, did he terrorize that team one year. Simply amazing play. I still want that series on DVD....I think that was the 15-1 playoffs run...all my Texas family were cursing Kobe in every way possible, and I had the pure luck to be in San Antonio with them all, watching it with glee.
LakeShowMan
Registered
D-Dogg said:
Like I said, at this point the discussion is worthless. His/her agenda is obvious, and silly things like facts are not going to get in the way.
LakeShowMan
Registered
Great breakdown on Kobe's 81 point game for anyone that didn't see it. It is done by Lang Whitaker over at The Links at SLAM.com. Lang is a self-described Kobe hater, but is usually on point with his basketball opinions. His comments on Kwame are pretty funny (and a little depressing to me).
http://slamonline.com/links/012306/
http://slamonline.com/links/012306/
Arizona's Finest
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golfcardfan said:
Only 25 posts and I can tell we got ourselves a homer here.....
a little uniformed bud...i will repost this from earlier in the thread..
We are all getting on him now but it will take the Lakers a couple years to add the requisite players to build a team around Bryant. And he has three rings....
And this is my favorite argument. Well thats because of Shaq....well how many rings does Shaq have w/o Kobe? And he has had the luxury of All NBA players like Penny and Wade on his side, unlike the Mamba.....They both did it TOGETHER, not because of either one singularly....Kobe needs to get more credit for that...
Sounds like you are pretty hardcore about the suns (which is def. a good thing
) but try to not be blinded by your love of the purple and orange. Kobe is Amazing. Thats not an opinion. That is fact and there is little to debate about. And anyone watching the Lakers title runs would agree that if not for Kobe, Shaq would be called the most overratted player of all time. Case in point. When Kobe was airballing in Utah as a youngin, Lakers couldnt get out of the second round (with players around them who were actually younger and better at the time than when they actually won it all). Once Kobe developed (and Jackson came which was huge as well) they were unstoppable. I remember after one press conference that even at the height of Shaq's disliking #8, he had to admit he was the MVP and the best player in the league. Shaq is great and makes things easier for everybody, but IMO Kobe was the difference maker.
Renz
An Army of One
Good take on Kobe.
Kobe may be despised, but still good for NBA
The more conservative-minded watchdogs of sporting and cultural protocol have placed Kobe Bryant in a category also occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald:
Kobe, they say, is acting alone.
It's a notion that's difficult to dispute. Bryant, the relentless scoring machine employed by the Lakers, put up 81 points in Sunday night's victory over the Toronto Raptors.
According to longtime Raptors insiders, Kobe seemed even more unstoppable than Isiah Thomas at the trading deadline.
But in making 81 represent more than the neutral-colored jersey number of Terrell Owens, Bryant has raised some interesting questions.
Here's one: Is the lone-gun approach good for the Lakers?
Here's another: Is Bryant's assault on the scoreboard good for the NBA?
At the calculated risk of alienating alleged purists who also whine about the league's post-and-stand philosophy, I'll offer an emphatic "yes" to both questions.
To supplement your expected bickering, we'll begin with the Lakers.
With Phil Jackson back in the catbird seat, it might seem that the All-Kobe, All-The-Time attack should have been retired weeks ago. Sure, Phil publicly recognizes a need for more productivity from other members of Bryant's suborning cast.
But, in addition to being steadfast in his me-over-we approach, Phil also happens to be a smart guy. And smart guys who coach realize that playing to your strength is a fine way to win games.
Please note that a Lamar Odom line-drive 3-pointer is not the Lakers' strength. The Kwame Brown drop-step-and-brick is not the Lakers' strength, either. The Smush Parker spot-up three is a nice sidebar created by the Kobe Show, but it also fails to qualify as the Lakers putting their best feet forward.
The Chris Mihm jump hook should be utilized more often, but it might help if Chris worked harder at achieving post position.
Anyway, while the defensive attention Kobe receives helps each of his starting cronies make at least 45 percent of their field-goal tries, it does not suggest that they need to shoot more often.
If you insist on looking at some numbers, we'll offer wins and losses. For example, when Kobe scores 40 or more points, the Lakers are 8-5. When he doesn't, they're 14-14. When he scores 60 or more, they're 2-0. I'm sort of kidding about the last set of numbers.
Bryant has averaged 43.3 points over the past 15 games (the Lakers are 9-6 in that span), shooting 46.6 percent from the floor while registering four assists. While this seems like no recipe for a championship, it's the best that can be done with what's in the kitchen.
By the way, the Lakers bagged a solid 47 percent of their shots from the field in that triumph over the Raptors, while ringing up a reasonable 14 turnovers. It's not wildly efficient, but is an improvement over what frequently occurred last season.
With numbers on the table, we now slide over into Michael Jordan territory. Please don't roll your eyes (roll someone else's). Some of the same people who now handle MJ's legacy with fierce reverence are the same knuckleheads who blasted him for being selfish when he was Bryant's age.
These knuckleheads have attempted to seize their upgraded basketball-knowledge certificates by reminding us that Jordan became a true champion after Phil convinced him to give up the ball more often.
Really?
Well, a review of the numbers reveals that in the three years preceding the Chicago's Bulls' first three-year title spree, MJ checked in with just over 1,900 field-goal attempts per season.
In the Bulls' first three championship campaigns, Jordan — averaging fewer minutes, by the way — still managed to squeeze off 1,886 shots per season. In Chicago's second, three-year title run, MJ launched another 1,880 per year.
What a difference. This statistical blitzkrieg is not attempted to discredit Jordan, who happens to be the greatest player in basketball history. It does attempt to prove that sometimes offensive balance is less important than offensive efficiency. It also doesn't attempt to make the case that Kobe will reach MJ-caliber greatness.
But we can insert this observation from Jackson:
"I've seen some remarkable things, but I've never seen anything like this before."
This doesn't imply that Phil liked it, although he was pleased to win.
Also note that when the passing mood hit him, Jordan could whip the ball to shooters named John Paxson and B.J. Armstrong. Kobe's Lakers don't have anyone with a shooting touch that deserves to be mentioned in this paragraph.
Jordan also had Scottie Pippen, who — despite some peculiar episodes — was far more reliable than the similarly talented Odom.
At power forward, Jordan was able to have a bit more confidence in kicking the ball to Horace Grant than Kobe has been able to muster with Kwame.
Let's spin over to our second question regarding Bryant's importance — vis-à-vis this recent scoring outburst — to the league.
At this juncture, Kobe is generating a great deal of NBA interest at a time when the NFL usually runs away with most of the sports-media attention. And this has as much to do with Bryant's image as his array of offensive weapons.
Frankly, Kobe has become the guy many sports observers (outside of L.A.) love to hate. According to the unchallenged sharpies at GQ magazine, Bryant is the fifth-most despised athlete on the planet.
Some of you would have cast a vote for Ron Artest, but it's not easy hating someone who rarely plays.
Great teams often produce strong feelings of dislike, but the San Antonio Spurs — Eva Longoria and Tony Parker notwithstanding — just seem too darned nice. The Detroit Pistons eventually may be more than a slouch, but their current potential to be disliked is no match for that of The Palace's public-address character.
That leaves us with Bryant, whose single-minded approach has captivated the nation's lust to hate something. That status recently was jeopardized when former teammate Shaquille O'Neal stopped by to shake Kobe's hand.
But less than a week later, Kobe rallied to score 81 points and lead the Lakers to victory in a game they trailed by 18 in the third quarter.
Even after the outcome was considered, the haters began lining up. It's interesting that Kobe's recent 62-point effort — which Bryant put a stop to after three quarters — mustered similar outcries of disgust.
If he's going to be selfish, it was argued, he should respect the fans enough to go all the way in this selfishness.
Perhaps the Lakers' talent will improve in the coming years and assist Bryant in returning to a championship level. But I'm hoping Kobe takes a different path than the one MJ floated over.
I have no interest in watching another sidetracked 6-foot-6 guy being humiliated by the curveball.
Veteran columnist Randy Hill is a frequent contributor for FOXSports.com.
Kobe may be despised, but still good for NBA
The more conservative-minded watchdogs of sporting and cultural protocol have placed Kobe Bryant in a category also occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald:
Kobe, they say, is acting alone.
It's a notion that's difficult to dispute. Bryant, the relentless scoring machine employed by the Lakers, put up 81 points in Sunday night's victory over the Toronto Raptors.
According to longtime Raptors insiders, Kobe seemed even more unstoppable than Isiah Thomas at the trading deadline.
But in making 81 represent more than the neutral-colored jersey number of Terrell Owens, Bryant has raised some interesting questions.
Here's one: Is the lone-gun approach good for the Lakers?
Here's another: Is Bryant's assault on the scoreboard good for the NBA?
At the calculated risk of alienating alleged purists who also whine about the league's post-and-stand philosophy, I'll offer an emphatic "yes" to both questions.
To supplement your expected bickering, we'll begin with the Lakers.
With Phil Jackson back in the catbird seat, it might seem that the All-Kobe, All-The-Time attack should have been retired weeks ago. Sure, Phil publicly recognizes a need for more productivity from other members of Bryant's suborning cast.
But, in addition to being steadfast in his me-over-we approach, Phil also happens to be a smart guy. And smart guys who coach realize that playing to your strength is a fine way to win games.
Please note that a Lamar Odom line-drive 3-pointer is not the Lakers' strength. The Kwame Brown drop-step-and-brick is not the Lakers' strength, either. The Smush Parker spot-up three is a nice sidebar created by the Kobe Show, but it also fails to qualify as the Lakers putting their best feet forward.
The Chris Mihm jump hook should be utilized more often, but it might help if Chris worked harder at achieving post position.
Anyway, while the defensive attention Kobe receives helps each of his starting cronies make at least 45 percent of their field-goal tries, it does not suggest that they need to shoot more often.
If you insist on looking at some numbers, we'll offer wins and losses. For example, when Kobe scores 40 or more points, the Lakers are 8-5. When he doesn't, they're 14-14. When he scores 60 or more, they're 2-0. I'm sort of kidding about the last set of numbers.
Bryant has averaged 43.3 points over the past 15 games (the Lakers are 9-6 in that span), shooting 46.6 percent from the floor while registering four assists. While this seems like no recipe for a championship, it's the best that can be done with what's in the kitchen.
By the way, the Lakers bagged a solid 47 percent of their shots from the field in that triumph over the Raptors, while ringing up a reasonable 14 turnovers. It's not wildly efficient, but is an improvement over what frequently occurred last season.
With numbers on the table, we now slide over into Michael Jordan territory. Please don't roll your eyes (roll someone else's). Some of the same people who now handle MJ's legacy with fierce reverence are the same knuckleheads who blasted him for being selfish when he was Bryant's age.
These knuckleheads have attempted to seize their upgraded basketball-knowledge certificates by reminding us that Jordan became a true champion after Phil convinced him to give up the ball more often.
Really?
Well, a review of the numbers reveals that in the three years preceding the Chicago's Bulls' first three-year title spree, MJ checked in with just over 1,900 field-goal attempts per season.
In the Bulls' first three championship campaigns, Jordan — averaging fewer minutes, by the way — still managed to squeeze off 1,886 shots per season. In Chicago's second, three-year title run, MJ launched another 1,880 per year.
What a difference. This statistical blitzkrieg is not attempted to discredit Jordan, who happens to be the greatest player in basketball history. It does attempt to prove that sometimes offensive balance is less important than offensive efficiency. It also doesn't attempt to make the case that Kobe will reach MJ-caliber greatness.
But we can insert this observation from Jackson:
"I've seen some remarkable things, but I've never seen anything like this before."
This doesn't imply that Phil liked it, although he was pleased to win.
Also note that when the passing mood hit him, Jordan could whip the ball to shooters named John Paxson and B.J. Armstrong. Kobe's Lakers don't have anyone with a shooting touch that deserves to be mentioned in this paragraph.
Jordan also had Scottie Pippen, who — despite some peculiar episodes — was far more reliable than the similarly talented Odom.
At power forward, Jordan was able to have a bit more confidence in kicking the ball to Horace Grant than Kobe has been able to muster with Kwame.
Let's spin over to our second question regarding Bryant's importance — vis-à-vis this recent scoring outburst — to the league.
At this juncture, Kobe is generating a great deal of NBA interest at a time when the NFL usually runs away with most of the sports-media attention. And this has as much to do with Bryant's image as his array of offensive weapons.
Frankly, Kobe has become the guy many sports observers (outside of L.A.) love to hate. According to the unchallenged sharpies at GQ magazine, Bryant is the fifth-most despised athlete on the planet.
Some of you would have cast a vote for Ron Artest, but it's not easy hating someone who rarely plays.
Great teams often produce strong feelings of dislike, but the San Antonio Spurs — Eva Longoria and Tony Parker notwithstanding — just seem too darned nice. The Detroit Pistons eventually may be more than a slouch, but their current potential to be disliked is no match for that of The Palace's public-address character.
That leaves us with Bryant, whose single-minded approach has captivated the nation's lust to hate something. That status recently was jeopardized when former teammate Shaquille O'Neal stopped by to shake Kobe's hand.
But less than a week later, Kobe rallied to score 81 points and lead the Lakers to victory in a game they trailed by 18 in the third quarter.
Even after the outcome was considered, the haters began lining up. It's interesting that Kobe's recent 62-point effort — which Bryant put a stop to after three quarters — mustered similar outcries of disgust.
If he's going to be selfish, it was argued, he should respect the fans enough to go all the way in this selfishness.
Perhaps the Lakers' talent will improve in the coming years and assist Bryant in returning to a championship level. But I'm hoping Kobe takes a different path than the one MJ floated over.
I have no interest in watching another sidetracked 6-foot-6 guy being humiliated by the curveball.
Veteran columnist Randy Hill is a frequent contributor for FOXSports.com.
About 2 minutes until the half in the follow-up game to the 81 point outburst...
Smush has 11
Mihm has 8
Kwame has 6
Cook has 5
Vujacic has 5
Kobe has 5
Smush has 11
Mihm has 8
Kwame has 6
Cook has 5
Vujacic has 5
Kobe has 5
Brian in Mesa said:About 2 minutes until the half in the follow-up game to the 81 point outburst...
Smush has 11
Mihm has 8
Kwame has 6
Cook has 5
Vujacic has 5
Kobe has 5
Kobe finishes with 30 and 8 assists, and a win in overtime. Thanks of course, to him (and Deavon George and Mihm too)
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