Kings @ Suns 1-8-18

[CardsSunsDbacks]

We have rarely been winning with him. I like Booker but we are paying him to be the best player and the best players in this league elevate the players around them to get W's

They are 8-22 when Booker plays for a win percentage of 36% (this includes two games that he missed the 2nd half and one of those was a 6 point loss). The team after this win is 2-9 without Booker for a win percentage of 22% (if you change that to games that Booker didn't play or didn't finish than it would be 2-11 for 18%).

 

[SirStefan32]

But Ayton is efficient only when he successfully gets the ball in good position and an easy decision to make. The Suns' team efficiency when going to Ayton is quite low. Usually the result is a tentative pass-out, a turnover, or a broken play that doesn't result in an actual turnover but still leads to garbage. Ayton is simply not a good offensive option at this stage of his development unless the conditions are nearly perfect, which they rarely are. It's like having a three-point shooter who makes 45%, but only if he's had two seconds to set his feet, no one is anywhere near him, and he hasn't had to run the floor to play defense in the last few possessions.

I think they fed him in the low post three times in the fourth. He scored on a turnaround jumper, and then turned it over the next two times. I think I agree with you, but I do think you are underselling him a bit. He has a jumper, he has a turnaround jumper, and he can score in the post if you get him the ball without a crowd around him. I've been screaming for them to get him the ball, but I think I need to watch what happens when they feed him a little bit closer. Suns almost lost the game tonight because they were force-feeding him in the 4th.

 

[SirStefan32]

They are 8-22 when Booker plays for a win percentage of 36% (this includes two games that he missed the 2nd half and one of those was a 6 point loss). The team after this win is 2-9 without Booker for a win percentage of 22% (if you change that to games that Booker didn't play or didn't finish than it would be 2-11 for 18%).

Damn you and your facts!

 

[elindholm]

I think they fed him in the low post three times in the fourth. He scored on a turnaround jumper, and then turned it over the next two times.

There was also a time, I think right after Ayton came back in, when either Melton or Jackson tried to get him the ball under bad circumstances and it was stolen before it even got to him. Or it could have been Crawford, I don't remember, but it made me think, "Yep, here we go again."

 

[AzStevenCal]

They are 8-22 when Booker plays for a win percentage of 36% (this includes two games that he missed the 2nd half and one of those was a 6 point loss). The team after this win is 2-9 without Booker for a win percentage of 22% (if you change that to games that Booker didn't play or didn't finish than it would be 2-11 for 18%).

Yeah and the picture becomes even clearer if you remove the games that Booker should not have played in due to injury.

 

[SirStefan32]

There was also a time, I think right after Ayton came back in, when either Melton or Jackson tried to get him the ball under bad circumstances and it was stolen before it even got to him. Or it could have been Crawford, I don't remember, but it made me think, "Yep, here we go again."

Yep, remember that one too. There was a crowd around him on that one too, if I remember correctly. He has great hands if you throw it high, but if you throw low and if there is a crowd around him, nothing good happens. In a one on one situation, he can actually get away with putting the ball on the floor, but if anyone else is within five feet of him, it's a guaranteed turnover or at the very least a bad possession.

 

[Suns_fan69]

A couple of things to add.

Daniels was a bit of an unsung hero tonight, he made a couple of shots which kept defenders honest and opened the lane up for Oubre and others. He also played decent enough defense to keep him on the floor.

Other than forcing a couple passes that just weren't there (or at least not for him), Melton did really well tonight. Made some outside shots, had 8 assists, 4 steals and 2 blocks. If he ever becomes a consistent 3 point threat he has a shot at being the PGotF.

Phoenix really put the clamps on the 3pt shot in the 2nd half. I think Sac had 12 3's at the half and finished with 15. They did a great job running them off the line and getting their hands on the ball when Sac tried to make a move. Really seeing the strength of all those long defensive oriented wings.

 

[JCSunsfan]

A couple of things to add.

Daniels was a bit of an unsung hero tonight, he made a couple of shots which kept defenders honest and opened the lane up for Oubre and others. He also played decent enough defense to keep him on the floor.

Other than forcing a couple passes that just weren't there (or at least not for him), Melton did really well tonight. Made some outside shots, had 8 assists, 4 steals and 2 blocks. If he ever becomes a consistent 3 point threat he has a shot at being the PGotF.

Phoenix really put the clamps on the 3pt shot in the 2nd half. I think Sac had 12 3's at the half and finished with 15. They did a great job running them off the line and getting their hands on the ball when Sac tried to make a move. Really seeing the strength of all those long defensive oriented wings.

This is interesting about Daniels. I am wondering if Booker could be a bit more effective by not trying to be so dominant constantly. If he can play within the team concept for the first three quarters, he will have more energy for D and more energy to take over if necessary in the fourth quarter. When you have been the only weapon for so long, its kind of hard to let the other weapons on the team flourish too. Klay is a good example of player with a similar skill level that plays within a team concept.

 

[BC867]

It may have been Eddie Johnson... not completely sure... but he said something like Ayton should make himself visible when players drive to the basket so they can dish him the ball for easy opportunities.

A lot of times he is not in their line of sight.

I would think this would be easy to learn with time.

I watched Ayton, play after play on offense tonight, stationed 23 feet from the basket for most of the 24-second shot clock. Then as he headed toward the basket, a crowd of defenders would get in his way.

Ask yourselves. Is D'Andre Ayton stationed at the 3-point line to set picks for most of the shot clock by his design? Or is it the Coach's game plan?

I think the answer is obvious. #1 pick or not, he is a 20-year old rookie doing what he is instructed to do. He is the victim of a rookie NBA Head Coach trying to make his trademark Euro-ball. It is clearly not working.

Who is going to tell him? The meddling owner who has no technical basketball experience? The interim partial-General Manager who was elevated because he is Sarver's yes-man?

It is right there for the world to see. The next time you watch a game, watch Ayton as soon as the Suns bring up the ball. Stationed at the 3-point line to set picks. What a waste of the #1 pick.

You might ask why Holmes doesn't face the same predicament. I would think it is because he has four years of NBA experience. And Sarver can't steamroll him like he does his rookie GM and rookie Head Coach. Which rolls downhill to young players like Ayton.

These are points that have been mentioned in the past. Tonight I concentrated on it throughout the time Ayton was on the floor. Play after play. So predictable.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is the opposite of the sky is falling.

said by literally no one.

way to keep projecting those arguments, Chap!

 

[BC867]

A win in a win, I don't care how it comes about.

I don't think you really mean that. The coaching staff better care about how the games -- win or lose -- come about. To not learn from this game to the next game is burying one's head in the sand.

When I was a kid and we played 2-hand touch football, the offense was, "Everybody out for a long one." You'd hardly find a high school, college or pro team using that philosophy.

But it seems to be the Suns' philosophy. The Center is out for a long pick, the rest of the team is out for a far-out weave and the shooters are out for 3-point shots. Offensive rebounds? There is no one left.

And look at the results, except for one game here or there. As you said, a win is a win. But in the NBA, each game is a learning experience. Especially for an inexperienced NBA Head Coach.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't think you really mean that. The coaching staff better care about how the games -- win or lose -- come about. To not learn from this game to the next game is burying one's head in the sand.

When I was a kid and we played 2-hand touch football, the offense was, "Everybody out for a long one." You'd hardly find a high school, college or pro team using that philosophy.

But it seems to be the Suns' philosophy. The Center is out for a long pick, the rest of the team is out for a far-out weave and the shooters are out for 3-point shots. Offensive rebounds? There is no one left.

And look at the results, except for one game here or there. As you said, a win is a win. But in the NBA, each game is a learning experience. Especially for an inexperienced NBA Head Coach.

I didn't say the coaches or players shouldn't care how they got the win, I said that as a fan I don't care how they got it so much as they did get it. It's not my job to analyze the win and come up with the gameplan tomorrow vs Dallas or for the next time they play the Kings. They snapped their losing streak and that's the main takeaway from that game. We can debate how they won all day but they did win after being down by over 20, which is great to see. They've finally managed to comeback completely to overcome an early deficit rather than just fighting back to make the score look respectable. I hope they build on it but if they don't there is no taking away the win tonight.

 

[sunsfan88]

Troy Daniels needs to stay in the rotation. I know it will be difficult to do once Booker returns but they need to figure out a way because he’s the best or 2nd best 3pt shooter on the team and moves without the ball extremely well.

 

[sunsfan88]

Couldn't watch the game. Just read the thread. Hilarious in retrospect.

Game day threads are all like that. People are more emotional in live time than they will be later.

If you don’t believe me you can go on the Chicago Bears forum and read their game thread from this past weekend’s game. There’s actually quite a few suicide threats in that one as well.

 

[slinslin]

yes, another 20+ deficit and another comeback from our energetic youngsters. As i said, their youth is our asset, not our liability.

it can be argued that:
our 2nd unit is more effective than our 1st
or, to put it another way,
the Suns may be more effective without our stars/top 3 players on the floor -- Booker, TJ, Ayton
or
the whole of our best defensive players is greater than the parts of our best offensive players

yes, the last one

No it cant be argued.

Ayton has a net rating of +3, Warren +4 and Booker +5. That destroys your entire argument.

 

[elindholm]

Ayton has a net rating of +3, Warren +4 and Booker +5. That destroys your entire argument.

I thought I understood net plus-minus, but I guess I don't. What does it mean, exactly? It can't be true that the Suns have outscored their opponents throughout the season when Ayton is on the floor.

Which site do you use?

 

[slinslin]

I thought I understood net plus-minus, but I guess I don't. What does it mean, exactly? It can't be true that the Suns have outscored their opponents throughout the season when Ayton is on the floor.

Which site do you use?

It simply means that the Suns are better with each of those players on the floor compared to when they are on the bench.

They haven't outscored anyone over the whole season but some lineups were closer than others.

Ayton has a better net rating than Holmes for instance.

 

[Chaplin]

said by literally no one.

way to keep projecting those arguments, Chap!

Nice contribution to the discussion! Way to go as always!

And all the while being wrong! You’re on a roll with your “attack the poster, not the message” philosophy!

 

[taz02]

That was a fun game to watch. The second unit defense really is a game changer.

Oubre was a beast. It would be great if he could do that consistently. His energy and attitude makes his game fun to watch.

Ayton setting picks so far out really hurts our rebounding even if we can't seem to get him the ball in the right position to score.

 

[Mainstreet]

This is interesting about Daniels. I am wondering if Booker could be a bit more effective by not trying to be so dominant constantly. If he can play within the team concept for the first three quarters, he will have more energy for D and more energy to take over if necessary in the fourth quarter. When you have been the only weapon for so long, its kind of hard to let the other weapons on the team flourish too. Klay is a good example of player with a similar skill level that plays within a team concept.

I agree with what you are saying.

Taking nothing away from Booker, but the ball stagnates when he holds the ball too long looking for his shot.

It's fine when the Suns need a key basket in the fourth quarter but the Suns need to move the ball more to be effective.

I'm so excited when other players step up. The Suns bench is a bright spot with Holmes, Oubre and Jackson. I almost don't want to say anything, but Jackson is looking like the player we all hoped he would be when he plays under control.

 

[Raindog]

The whole having Ayton setting picks 25 feet from the basket thing is beyond stupid... particularly because it seems to be a feature rather than a bug.

If that is all Kokoskov's "scheme," then I agree with some of the posters on here that Igor is failing. It is idiotic.

 

[Mainstreet]

Troy Daniels needs to stay in the rotation. I know it will be difficult to do once Booker returns but they need to figure out a way because he’s the best or 2nd best 3pt shooter on the team and moves without the ball extremely well.

The Suns need to utilize his skills. I suspect if Daniels were on another team he would be a solid role player.

 

[Mainstreet]

We have rarely been winning with him. I like Booker but we are paying him to be the best player and the best players in this league elevate the players around them to get W's

I think I know what you are trying to say. The Suns are better when they play team basketball.

The Suns are definitely better with Booker but he needs some help running the team. He is often thrust into carrying too much of the load.

Booker and the rest of the team would be better if they had a point guard who could penetrate and distribute.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think this tweet tells the story.

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[AzStevenCal]

We have rarely been winning with him. I like Booker but we are paying him to be the best player and the best players in this league elevate the players around them to get W's

Well, if you want to point to his salary to justify your message you should know that Booker is scoring almost 25 points per game and is being paid 3.3 million bucks to do it. So, we aren't paying him to be the best player just yet.