Kings @ Suns 1-8-18

[Chris_Sanders]

I thought I understood net plus-minus, but I guess I don't. What does it mean, exactly? It can't be true that the Suns have outscored their opponents throughout the season when Ayton is on the floor.

Which site do you use?

I found real +/- on ESPN but it is only for the season

Booker +0.99
Ayton - 1.09 (47th amongst centers)
Warren +0.51

Can't find anything beyond that

 

[elindholm]

I might just do it by hand. It's only like 10 games right?

10-12, I think. If you have time to do it, that would be great!

 

[WildBB]

I'm not arguing that it was a great team win. But the question is, "Is Devin Booker the Phoenix Suns best player?" And the answer is yes, without question. Are we better without him playing? Last night, we were pretty good. But is that BECAUSE he wasn't playing or DESPITE the fact that he wasn't playing?

And don't forget, we're not exactly undefeated when he doesn't play.

Yes this TEAM needs to get better at both. With him in and with him gone.

Some of it is rotational issues, but it's getting better. Ayton should get at least as much or more minutes then Holmes. I would like to see Holmes get some starts with Booker in the lineup however.

 

[BC867]

Well, if you want to point to his salary to justify your message you should know that Booker is scoring almost 25 points per game and is being paid 3.3 million bucks to do it. So, we aren't paying him to be the best player just yet.

Substitute the word "expecting" rather than "paying".

 

[AzStevenCal]

Substitute the word "expecting" rather than "paying".

I would say, no, because he was essentially saying that Booker is getting paid like the best player so for that reason alone he must play like the best player. So, if he's going to boil it down to money, well Booker isn't getting his yet. IOW, bringing money into this conversation is useless. I agree we expect him to be our best player and I agree with the others that he's let us down quite a bit. And it drives me nuts every time it looks like he's going to play through another injury, he just doesn't have the quicks or the hops to thrive when he's not at full strength.

 

[1tinsoldier]

What bothers me most about it is the comment Igor made about a month ago about how we'd see Ayton start taking 3's once he was able to start dunking 10 times a game. Implying that once he mastered the inside game that he would open things up for him on the outside. The problem with that is Igor's offense doesn't put him in position to get 10 dunks a game. The only way that would happen is if he gets 10 offensive rebounds somehow and as a rookie it's unfair to ask for that or expect it, I don't care how well he's played so far. I would feel better if he never made that remark because it made it seem like we'd see Ayton's role expand on offense but it hasn't and there isn't really a good reason why it hasn't. I know his defense needs work but if he can hit it from 23 feet out then let him shoot that because then those picks will be more effective because defenders will need to cover him for fear of him pulling up and draining a 3.

this is the kind of Igor stuff i'm talking about. i heard Ayton say that about taking 3's and though it was weird, but ok, he's got a long career ahead of him. but it's the coach's idea to limit Ayton's arsenal? not even test those waters, considering that drawing opposing centers outside could open up the interior for TJ and JJ and Oubre and Bridges and Melton? as is, opposing coaches are guaranteed to leave their center guarding the interior as Ayton plays hot potato with the ball out by the 3 pt line

what the hell?

Ayton might be a better 3 shooter than JJ.
better to tell JJ he's not allowed to shoot 3's until he learns how to finish drives and becomes the Clyde Drexler he can be, and that we need him to be. (Drexler became a 3 pt threat later in his career)

 

[leclerc]

There always has to be a whipping boy and since Igor didn't do anything tonight that people could complain about and sound reasonable it's open season on Booker.

Booker has been playing injured as well, so he's not been at 100% for some time. Let's just hope they carry over the effort and enthusiasm to the next game. Holmes must go home early and get some sleep.

 

[WildBB]

I found real +/- on ESPN but it is only for the season

Booker +0.99
Ayton - 1.09 (47th amongst centers)
Warren +0.51

Can't find anything beyond that

They've had some horrible starts to games.

That needs to change obviously.

 

[WildBB]

I hate to see Booker slow it down and he does take a shot or make a pass every now and then that makes me cringe. And when he's playing though injury as he has been in most games this season, his shot is often off, he's easy to block and he has trouble hanging onto the ball against pressure. All that said, he's still our best player. And if he and Ayton were being judged the same way that Watson, Holmes and Oubre are judged, there would be far less criticism of either guy. But some people are holding both of them to higher standards and ignoring the fact that they are still works in progress.

You know what Holmes brings consistently every game. Ayton is still developing THAT.

 

[leclerc]

I almost don't want to say anything, but Jackson is looking like the player we all hoped he would be when he plays under control.

Ssshhh...

 

[leclerc]

I just finished watching the game for the second time, once with the Phoenix feed and once with the Sacramento group. I think Grant Napear and Doug Christie are probably my favorite announcing pair in the NBA right now. Christie reminds me of Eddie Johnson his first year with the mic, before he started making everything about himself. And Napear is far superior to anyone we've had, maybe ever, Al McCoy excepted. And yeah, I know almost everyone here still loves EJ.

I like it that you watch the wins twice.

Good game by Daniels BTW. I hope he follows it up in the next game. Force Igor to give him more PT.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You know what Holmes brings consistently every game. Ayton is still developing THAT.

You're right, Holmes always bring effort. But if you focus on his game like many do on Ayton's, trust me, you'll see a lot of mistakes by him. And I wouldn't argue with anyone that suggested Holmes has outplayed Ayton of late, I think he probably has. I just think it's almost expected, an experienced bundle of energy like Holmes should outplay a giant kid that's still clearly got a long ways to go to learn the game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I like it that you watch the wins twice.

Good game by Daniels BTW. I hope he follows it up in the next game. Force Igor to give him more PT.

Up until a few years ago I watched almost every game twice, sometimes even 3 or 4 times if it was a particularly good game and the Suns were on break for a day or more. But the last couple of years, it's all I can do to watch each game start to finish and that includes some of the wins.

And I think we will see more of Daniels going forward, he's been a fairly effective role player for us IMO.

 

[1tinsoldier]

No it cant be argued.

Ayton has a net rating of +3, Warren +4 and Booker +5. That destroys your entire argument.

no. it doesn't. i said the best argument is:

the whole of our best defensive players is greater than the parts of our best offensive players

i'd love to see the +/1 on Melton, Bridges, JJ, Oubre, and Holmes as a whole, when they play together

some folks got nervous, but i never said Booker is not our best player and neither did anyone else.
but NBA history is full of "best players" (i.e. Carmello's) who don't translate to wins or championships

i believe Booker will be both an all-star and a winner
but Booker ball (he's one of the players who has the ball in his hands most in the league) is not a winning strategy

 

[Chaplin]

some folks got nervous, but i never said Booker is not our best player and neither did anyone else.
but NBA history is full of "best players" (i.e. Carmello's) who don't translate to wins or championships

Bull.

ProdigalSun:

What a big win without our "best" player

WildBB:

And this w/o their supposed best player.

Great energy all around tonight. Everyone involved.

TEAM play.

 

[1tinsoldier]

proves my point
no one said he's NOT our best player
they just questioned his effectiveness

like i said, nothing to get nervous about
please stop wasting my time with your basketball insecurities
you'd be "better off silent"

 

[1tinsoldier]

i'd love to see the +/1 on Melton, Bridges, JJ, Oubre, and Holmes as a whole, when they play together

well, they've erased 20+ leads on 3 or 4 occasions the past month so they must be around +80 together in those games

 

[Chaplin]

proves my point
no one said he's NOT our best player
they just questioned his effectiveness

like i said, nothing to get nervous about
please stop wasting my time with your basketball insecurities
you'd be "better off silent"

What the...? Where did THAT come from? I posted direct quotes about it and you respond with THIS nonsense?

 

[Superbone]

I just finished watching the game for the second time, once with the Phoenix feed and once with the Sacramento group. I think Grant Napear and Doug Christie are probably my favorite announcing pair in the NBA right now. Christie reminds me of Eddie Johnson his first year with the mic, before he started making everything about himself. And Napear is far superior to anyone we've had, maybe ever, Al McCoy excepted. And yeah, I know almost everyone here still loves EJ.

I knew there was a reason I liked you. I do the same thing. But only in wins or close games.

 

[WildBB]

What the...? Where did THAT come from? I posted direct quotes about it and you respond with THIS nonsense?

Booker is the leader of this team. He's usually the best player on the team. Doesn't mean he is every night for sure. Not even for this season so far. But that's jmho. He's pressing and forcing too much at times when things aren't flowing or going good. In other words, he's been better. Again, jmho.

He needs to get others involved as well as the PG. That's one area where the TEAM as a whole can advance. His pick and roll passes have to be more consistent and when it's not there have 2nd options readily available. Crawford has done it with better consistency most of the year.

And when games are on the line he should continue to look for his shot, but avoid forcing it.

 

[Suns_fan69]

His (Booker's) pick and roll passes have to be more consistent and when it's not there have 2nd options readily available. Crawford has done it with better consistency most of the year.

That's a good point. Booker, on the whole, makes decent reads off the pick and roll, but the passes are all over the place. They're rarely in the shooter's pocket to the perimeter, and lobs to Ayton are 50/50 at best. Don't know if he'll be able to develop it more but it's a big reason for his turnover numbers.

 

[1tinsoldier]

What the...? Where did THAT come from? I posted direct quotes about it and you respond with THIS nonsense?

yes, thank you for including the quotes
but you started with "Bull" and your quotes were not bull-worthy
"nonsense" is also an antagonistic tone
if you could be a little more civil i promise to reply in kind

 

[AzStevenCal]

And when games are on the line he should continue to look for his shot, but avoid forcing it.

I don't disagree with much of your post but for a 22 year old, this can be a very tricky thing to learn. Especially as he is still learning to play with the ball in his hands most of the time.

 

[Chaplin]

Booker is the leader of this team. He's usually the best player on the team. Doesn't mean he is every night for sure. Not even for this season so far. But that's jmho. He's pressing and forcing too much at times when things aren't flowing or going good. In other words, he's been better. Again, jmho.

He needs to get others involved as well as the PG. That's one area where the TEAM as a whole can advance. His pick and roll passes have to be more consistent and when it's not there have 2nd options readily available. Crawford has done it with better consistency most of the year.

And when games are on the line he should continue to look for his shot, but avoid forcing it.

You are absolutely right on all accounts. However, I disagreed that Booker is our SUPPOSED best player. He IS our best player.

 

[Chaplin]

yes, thank you for including the quotes
but you started with "Bull" and your quotes were not bull-worthy
"nonsense" is also an antagonistic tone
if you could be a little more civil i promise to reply in kind

I attacked the post, not you, so you're barking up the wrong tree there. You decided to take the low road on this. Unless reading comprehension has changed, both those quoted posts imply that Booker actually is NOT our best player. You posted that you did not agree with that statement, but then claimed that nobody said or implied it. That is what is bull.