Game 4 (DEN 41 AZ 20) Thoughts

Mitch

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In the pre-game yesterday, I noticed two things that concerned me: (1) in listening to BA's full presser this time I thought it was out of his character philosophically to say that even if the team lost to Denver it would still come home in first place---while that's true---and I understand that he was trying to downplay this game as a "must" win or even as a so-called "statement" game---it didn't sound like something he would say, especially when he had been warning that it's a "short elevator ride to the sh&^house."

Secondly, I could not believe my eyes when I saw that OLB Thomas Keiser was inactive for the game---Keiser is the only edge rusher I have seen even remotely get close to the QB since John Abraham was concussed. Last game he nearly had Kaepernick twice versus T Joe Staley. At least Keiser was getting some pressure.

Then the game started and I was impressed with Stanton and the way the offense ran the first drive---which even included a successful TE screen pass to John Carlson, even though neither Fanaika nor Massie laid the wood on anyone while blocking ahead of the play. At least they were in tandem and leading the convoy.

Fitz had a couple of nice catches and I thought this could be a big day for the offense. Plus---having expected Veldheer and Massie to struggle with Ware and Miller, they were actually having their way with them early on.

Then the tight red zone happened and the drive stalled...and just as BA had emphasized, in this game settling for three would not be enough. Just the same, the Cardinals were on the board as Catanzaro once again split the uprights.

Note: the tight red zone is tough, especially for an inexperienced QB. Even Kurt Warner struggled with it for a while in AZ before he started getting a clearer picture of how to attack it.

The ensuing Broncos' drive was very disconcerting---while Stanton was getting hurried on his end, Peyton Manning was not pressured---and basically for the whole game, the Cardinals allowed Manning to play in a tuxedo---and any time that happens the odds of beating the Broncos, especially in that altitude, diminish to practically zero percent.

The teams that have the best chance to beat Manning are the teams like the Seahawks who can generate decent pressure with a four man rush. In the Cardinals' case, even when they sent six after Manning, the Broncos' had it covered like a blanket, or I should say like a stone wall.

Note: one can assume Manning logged a fair degree of cellphone time with brother Eli, and having two weeks to study the Cardinals' blitz packages and incorporate Eli's notes, Manning had his offense very well prepared....which is what he was doing pointing to Cardinal defenders and calling out the protection scheme before snapping the ball on Omaha.

But---none of the Cardinals' front seven was able to win the one on one battles, and even when rushing six, nary a defender got a clean shot at Manning.

However, as Manning is prone to throwing to spots, the Cardinals made two nice first half interceptions by Jerraud Powers and Calais Campbell---the second of which set up Andre Ellington's nifty 5 yard TD run to make it 14-13.

The Cardinals had excellent momentum---the Cardinals' defense got yet another stop, but the offense failed to convert on a 3rd and short---which forced a punt down to the Broncos' 14 yard line with 1:37 in the half.

At this point there is no reason to press coverage---especially with no safety help over the top---which, combined with Cromnartie's very unathletic attempt to run stride for stride with D-Thomas, Manning delivered a fingertip strike up the sideline, and Thomas was off to the races untouched for a crushing momentum swinging 21-13 lead.

Then the Cardinals' offense sputtered---and gave the ball back with still enough time for Manning to score---which he did on a deep pass to Thomas again, only TE Julius Thomas decides to try to take Calais Campbell out with a cowardly, suckerpunch shot to the right knee. The NFL is calling it a chop block---which further proves the NFL can't call a spade a spade---it was a malicious hit by Thomas, anyone can see him going right for Campbell's knee, and in a league that does all it supposedly can to protect the so-called "defenseless" player---

Mind you, this was a PASS play---not a run play---a PASS play---Thomas could have easily done what TE's do on pass plays which is chip block in the shoulder pads---instead he took aim at campbell's knee. It was egregious and a disgrace to the game of football---and now a disgrace to the NFL for not having the stones to call it what it really was.

From that point on---it is actually amazing to think that despite Drew Stanton getting knocked out and having Logan Thomas in the game, when Thomas threaded the needle to Ellington on the 81 yard wheel route TD, it is still a game, 24-20 with 3:03 left in the 3rd quarter. it's even still a game with 13;48 in the 4th quarter when McManus boinks the FG off the upright no less to increase the Broncos' lead to 27-20.

But---as hard as Logan Thomas competed---and he made every effort to stay on his feet even when getting crushed from both sides by Ware and Miller who by now had worn down the OL and were licking their chops versus a rookie QB---he couldn't get anything going---most frustratingly when, for example, he threw a perfect pass to an open Ted Ginn Jr. that would have moved the chains in a key third down situation. Thomas got no help from the line and no help from anyone not named Ellington.

The threes and outs on offense exacerbated the depleted energies of the defense---and, curiously Todd Bowles did not change his matchups even when it was clear that Cromartie was no match on this day for D-Thomas---and that Jefferson was no match for J-Thomas. We have grown accustomed to seeing Bowles make the necessary adjustments---and yet in this game there was little he did to try to manufacture pressure and coverage confusions versus a first-ballot HOF QB---with TWO WEEKS to prepare for him. Weird.

Weird too that the best edge pass rusher on the roster was deemed inactive. Watch the Cardinals' edge rushing in this game---it's an embarrassment---against one on one blocking the whole afternoon. Not once to my recollection did any edge rusher get within 20 feet of Manning. Can you think of anyone?

Amazing that the Cardinals made a game of this for three quarters---but very disappointing that so many players, especially the cadre of WRs and two lethargic DBs, played soft in this game. One would think they would have been inspired to do everything they could to beat the Peyton Manning Show.

Lastly, as good as most of the coaching staff is---we really miss ST coach Kevin Spencer---our return teams are still not getting the job done this year---and it is hard to keep watching a STs approach where the punt returner plays scared and stupid...which is what Peterson was allowed to do all of last year and is exactly what Ted Ginn Jr. is doing this year. Ginn's body language says it all. When he was playing on the Panthers last year and playing for a contract, he was out there clapping his hands and wiping the droll off his mouth when he was lining up to field punts. he was running fast routes and catching the ball. This year he looks like a ghost. And---that is as much on the coaches as it is on Ginn, because they keep running him out there.
 
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az jam

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Good analysis on a very depressing game. Now with Shaughnessy out, the Cards defense will have a real tough time not just against the pass but also the running game. Cards really need to avoid a losing streak and regroup against Washington this Sunday.
 

juza76

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Yeah i was also surprised about keiser, at least i could imagine a increase role of okafor but he played just 10 snaps
 

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Nice synopsis Mitch! Exactly the way I saw the game. Now, only time before the "tree sprayers" come and mark their spot and downplay an excellent view of the game. This is a game we could have, and should have won, barring injuries.
 
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Well said Mitch. That was a great point, (completely overlooked by me), concerning Eli and Peyton sharing information about our defense. Peyton did check out of nearly every bad situation our defense had him in at pre-snap. Clearly the Mannings used the two weeks to prepare better than we did.

In reference to our Special Teams, I can't imagine how Ginn is allowed to continue receiving punts. I would have said 'returning' punts, but he does not do that, he simply receives them, (most of the time).

I too, thought that Logan Thomas played hard, (not smart, but hard). He was clearly forced into duck-and-cover mode by a wicked pass rush the entire 4th quarter. Still he tried to keep his feet, and keep his vision down field. The TD pass that almost no one will give him credit for was thrown by the same arm as the incompletions were, and thus should be given the similar credit. He should also be given credit for no interceptions thrown. I wouldn't mind him starting against Washington next Sunday. He might surprise a few people. It would certainly be a better learning experience than he was forced into yesterday. Denver is a very talented team, (that played like a Super Bowl contender yesterday).
 
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Good read as always Mitch. I appreciate your views on games as well as k9's, Choppers, & a few others.
 

ajcardfan

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Kaiser isn't good. That is the end of the discussion on him.

But, even though Keiser is not very good, Mitch is correct. He's the only one to get much pressure in a non-blitz situation this season. Which really tells you how weak our pass rush is than anything else. It's sad that a guy who was cut by two teams has flashed more than our draft picks at the position.

Which again, gets back to our failure to address this position with a high draft pick over the last 15 years.
 
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Mitch

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Well said Mitch. That was a great point, (completely overlooked by me), concerning Eli and Peyton sharing information about our defense. Peyton did check out of nearly every bad situation our defense had him in at pre-snap. Clearly the Mannings used the two weeks to prepare better than we did.

In reference to our Special Teams, I can't imagine how Ginn is allowed to continue receiving punts. I would have said 'returning' punts, but he does not do that, he simply receives them, (most of the time).

I too, thought that Logan Thomas played hard, (not smart, but hard). He was clearly forced into duck-and-cover mode by a wicked pass rush the entire 4th quarter. Still he tried to keep his feet, and keep his vision down field. The TD pass that almost no one will give him credit for was thrown by the same arm as the incompletions were, and thus should be given the similar credit. He should also be given credit for no interceptions thrown. I wouldn't mind him starting against Washington next Sunday. He might surprise a few people. It would certainly be a better learning experience than he was forced into yesterday. Denver is a very talented team, (that played like a Super Bowl contender yesterday).

Catfish---what smart thing was he supposed to do? As soon as he planted his back foot he was nailed. But, he battled like mad to try to keep plays alive anyway. That ball he threw to Ellington under complete duress was a laser. He earned my respect. And I was happy to see he earned yours, because you are a very good judge of talent and character.
 
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ajcardfan

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Catfish---what smart thing was he supposed to do? As soon as he planted his back foot he was nailed. But, he battled to try to keep plays alive anyway. That ball he threw to Ellington under complete duress was a laser. He earned my respect. And I was happy to see he earned yours.

I appreciate that he played really hard. He took serious shots and kept competing. And, he made one great throw for a TD.

That said, do you really think he's ready to lead an NFL offense to sustain drives and get points? I think it was obvious he's not ready. He doesn't call audibles, the play runs in spite of defensive adjustment to it. He's not accurate, he locks in on receivers, so the defense is all over them when the pass comes.

I like Thomas as an individual, but I see the exact same QB as the LT that played at Virginia Tech. He can make a play to blow your mind, but consistency to execute on the simple level just isn't there yet.
 

Chopper0080

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But, even though Keiser is not very good, Mitch is correct. He's the only one to get much pressure in a non-blitz situation this season. Which really tells you how weak our pass rush is than anything else. It's sad that a guy who was cut by two teams has flashed more than our draft picks at the position.

Which again, gets back to our failure to address this position with a high draft pick over the last 15 years.

Kaiser is weak vs the run, and has not been able to finish as a pash rusher. If yuo can't get either done, another player is going to be given a chance.
 
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Mitch

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I appreciate that he played really hard. He took serious shots and kept competing. And, he made one great throw for a TD.

That said, do you really think he's ready to lead an NFL offense to sustain drives and get points? I think it was obvious he's not ready. He doesn't call audibles, the play runs in spite of defensive adjustment to it. He's not accurate, he locks in on receivers, so the defense is all over them when the pass comes.

I like Thomas as an individual, but I see the exact same QB as the LT that played at Virginia Tech. He can make a play to blow your mind, but consistency to execute on the simple level just isn't there yet.

No, of course not, AJ. But, what Thomas has going for him is much better coaching now---however, four weeks into the season as a #3 QB, he hasn't had many reps if any at all with the first team. In due time, he could be very good, imho.

But---imo, you have to play him the way SF plays Kaepernick. You have to establish him as a running threat and get him out into space on bootlegs and sprint outs, which will put the defense on its heels and will slow down the rush. Plus, it will buy him to time to put that outstanding arm of his to use.

Yesterday, the Cardinals were one hit away from Ted Ginn playing QB. It was not a scenario where BA could be aggressive with Thomas. When it's Thomas's time, the offense needs to be catered to his strengths. This offense as designed for Carson Palmer is not the most nifty fit for LT this early in his career.
 
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NJCardFan

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Good analysis on a very depressing game. Now with Shaughnessy out, the Cards defense will have a real tough time not just against the pass but also the running game. Cards really need to avoid a losing streak and regroup against Washington this Sunday.

Washington should be ripe for the pickings this week. They're playing tonight then they'll have to come across country to play us Sunday. They are also banged up.

and now a disgrace to the NFL for not having the stones to call it what it really was.

Rest assured if it were Von Miller they'd suspend whoever did it.
 
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Mitch

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Washington should be ripe for the pickings this week. They're playing tonight then they'll have to come across country to play us Sunday. They are also banged up.



Rest assured if it were Von Miller they'd suspend whoever did it.

Yeah, one gets the sense the NFL doesn't want this to take attention away from the positive NFL feel good buzz about Peyton Manning's field day.
 

MrYeahBut

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No, of course not, AJ. But, what Thomas has going for him is much better coaching now---however, four weeks into the season as a #3 QB, he hasn't had many reps if any at all with the first team. In due time, he could be very good, imho.

But---imo, you have to play him the way SF plays Kaepernick. You have to establish him as a running threat and get him out into space on bootlegs and sprint outs, which will put the defense on its heels and will slow down the rush. Plus, it will buy him to time to put that outstanding arm of his to use.


Yesterday, the Cardinals were one hit away from Ted Ginn playing QB. It was not a scenario where BA could be aggressive with Thomas. When it's Thomas's time, the offense needs to be catered to his strengths. This offense as designed for Carson Palmer is not the most nifty fit for LT this early in his career.


While this is probably true if he does become the QB the team has to count on, I don't see them being able to spend the time to tailor the offense to him unless he is the only option.
.
 

Shaggy

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Like Mitch said, if they are going with Thomas, I hope they skeem to his running ability and let him run the ball like Wilson did to Washington tonight. Play to his strengths and allow him time with the first team and he could play better.
 

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Good memory.

I think the last first round DE/OLB was Calvin Pace.

Simeon Rice is the only great pass rusher that I can recall us drafting that did anything. Our top off-season priority has to be three pass rushers next year. Okafor will be our best pass rusher this season if he can just stay healthy.
 

BigRedRage

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Washington played well tonight, if we dont get Palmer or Stanton back we are in big trouble.
 

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BigRedRage said: "Washington played well tonight, if we don't get Palmer or Stanton back we are in big trouble." :sad:

You could be right.

My thoughts are that the unknown factor of "high altitude" added significantly to the Cards collapse in the 4th quarter. They were obviously gassed. We should have that problem in our favor this weekend.

If the WRs put some stickum on their hands and Coach has PP returning the ball, it'll help. Using Powers more and maybe Bethel at CB may help. And more use of Mathieu should help too. JMO.
 

daves

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But---imo, you have to play him the way SF plays Kaepernick. You have to establish him as a running threat and get him out into space on bootlegs and sprint outs

Wow... Thomas may resemble Kaepernick enough to play his double in a commercial, but i haven't seen any part of Thomas' game that bears any resemblance to Kaepernick's. What makes you think that the Cardinals can establish a running threat with Thomas, who had a career 2.7 yards per rushing attempt in college (vs. Kaepernick's 6.9 ypa)?

Like Mitch said, if they are going with Thomas, I hope they skeem to his running ability and let him run the ball like Wilson did to Washington tonight.

Thomas may be tough to bring down and have some mobility in the pocket, but does he have anything remotely resembling Wilson's mobility out of the pocket and ability to throw on the run? He's got 2" and 25lbs on Kaepernick and 7" and close to 50lbs on Wilson. I don't remotely see any reason to think that Thomas can emulate the style of Kaepernick or Wilson.

...dbs
 

Cheesebeef

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Wow... Thomas may resemble Kaepernick enough to play his double in a commercial, but i haven't seen any part of Thomas' game that bears any resemblance to Kaepernick's. What makes you think that the Cardinals can establish a running threat with Thomas, who had a career 2.7 yards per rushing attempt in college (vs. Kaepernick's 6.9 ypa)?



Thomas may be tough to bring down and have some mobility in the pocket, but does he have anything remotely resembling Wilson's mobility out of the pocket and ability to throw on the run? He's got 2" and 25lbs on Kaepernick and 7" and close to 50lbs on Wilson. I don't remotely see any reason to think that Thomas can emulate the style of Kaepernick or Wilson.

...dbs

Agreed. I don't know where this idea comes from that Thomas has those skills. He doesn't have near the game speed those other two have.
 

Russ Smith

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No, of course not, AJ. But, what Thomas has going for him is much better coaching now---however, four weeks into the season as a #3 QB, he hasn't had many reps if any at all with the first team. In due time, he could be very good, imho.

But---imo, you have to play him the way SF plays Kaepernick. You have to establish him as a running threat and get him out into space on bootlegs and sprint outs, which will put the defense on its heels and will slow down the rush. Plus, it will buy him to time to put that outstanding arm of his to use.

Yesterday, the Cardinals were one hit away from Ted Ginn playing QB. It was not a scenario where BA could be aggressive with Thomas. When it's Thomas's time, the offense needs to be catered to his strengths. This offense as designed for Carson Palmer is not the most nifty fit for LT this early in his career.


The thing is he is NOT Kaepernick, that's the point I tried to make after we picked him when people kept bringing CK up. Look at CK's rushing stats in college, look at Logan Thomas and compare. What jumps out at you is yards per rush, 4 years Thomas averaged 2.7 yards per rush as a starter 3.1, 3.0 and 2.1 as a senior. CK for comparison 6.9 for his career, 5.6, 7, 7.3, 7. CK is a MUCH better runner, it's not even close he's quicker he's faster and he has a much better instinct on when to run. CK had 59 rushing TD's in college, Thomas had 24.

I still think if Thomas had just an average arm he would have never got to his soph year in college as a QB, they would have seen the athletic ability and made him a TE. But he has a very strong arm so they tried to make him a QB.

I agree you have to move him in the pocket the problem is he's nowhere near ready to play so what you really want to do is limit the decisions he has to make and that kind of means changing the offense which is tough to do in the NFL. That's why we have to all hope Stanton is healthy or Palmer's shoulder wakes up.
 

BigRedRage

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BigRedRage said: "Washington played well tonight, if we don't get Palmer or Stanton back we are in big trouble." :sad:

You could be right.

My thoughts are that the unknown factor of "high altitude" added significantly to the Cards collapse in the 4th quarter. They were obviously gassed. We should have that problem in our favor this weekend.

If the WRs put some stickum on their hands and Coach has PP returning the ball, it'll help. Using Powers more and maybe Bethel at CB may help. And more use of Mathieu should help too. JMO.


I think we were gassed because the offense had the ball for 3 minutes in the entire 4th quarter.
 

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