Franchise took a big step back today

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yep, that's the rub. Not only is he not the more athletic/game-smart version of Mike Vick that people kept insisting, we're watching guys like Gardner Minshew and Daniel Jones look more compelling, and it's very hard to make the argument that their offenses are dramatically better around them.

I think it’s incredibly shortsighted to try to take anything away from players on different teams with different opponents with only 1-, 2-, and 3-game data sets. Not significant data pools.

 

[Arz101]

Murray's game day speed running the ball is a bit underwhelming so far. I have to agree with @Solar7.

At the same time, Murray looks comfortable passing the football. Murray's throws are quick and on time. If Sherfield and Kirk didn't drop the passes, it would be a different story this morning. I cut some slack for Rosen and will do the same for Murray early in the season.

Murray has to learn to stay in the pocket, take the hit and deliver the ball as every top QB does. Does Murray have it? We will see.

 

[Solar7]

Eh, I live Cali so I don’t have that outlet either. And venting is certainly fine. But what you’re describing is more trying to get back at posters for their opinions during the offseason than it is commenting on what’s going on today. I know this to be true because you can’t actually be disappointed in kylers performance because you bashed his selection all offseason, so you should’ve had the lowest expectations of anyone on the board. And it’s not like he’s been a dismal failure, so i suspect he’s got to have somewhat exceeded your expectations to date.

And call me when you’ve hooked up with the minister that officiated the wedding and had her take back your tux to the bride and groom at the brunch the next day . . .

I don't think I've been particularly negative about him or the team, especially in comparison to a lot of others. I wrote a pretty decent review of him week 1, I'm not sure I said much of anything week 2, and now I'm just saying I understand the frustration.

I mean, we are the arguments we make. I still get ripped on for Kirk Cousins, and I'm cool with that.

Kyler needs room to grow, like I think Rosen did, but he hasn't done anything to budge my opinion from the vast majority of the offseason once we'd drafted him.

My argument all along has been that I don't think Kyler represented a significant upgrade from what we had, and thus far that's been pretty much true. I'm a traditionalist and think this game is still won in the trenches, which is where we're in bad shape. There aren't a ton of QBs I think could succeed in this particular situation.

 

[Solar7]

I think it’s incredibly shortsighted to try to take anything away from players on different teams with different opponents with only 1-, 2-, and 3-game data sets. Not significant data pools.

I mean, they're real games with real action. I can't imagine there'd be a ton of complaints if he came out and looked great in those three games. There aren't any Giants fans complaining about Daniel Jones today.

Murray's game day speed running the ball is a bit underwhelming so far. I have to agree with @Solar7.

At the same time, Murray looks comfortable passing the football. Murray's throws are quick and on time. If Sherfield and Kirk didn't drop the passes, it would be a different story this morning. I cut some slack for Rosen and will do the same for Murray early in the season.

Murray has to learn to stay in the pocket, take the hit and deliver the ball as every top QB does. Does Murray have it? We will see.

I missed the drops that are being mentioned to Sherfield and Kirk, but what I saw in the first two games was primarily Kyler getting the ball to guys who were going mostly uncovered, which is kinda like what I saw on tape from Oklahoma. Time will tell if he can throw people open.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think I've been particularly negative about him or the team, especially in comparison to a lot of others. I wrote a pretty decent review of him week 1, I'm not sure I said much of anything week 2, and now I'm just saying I understand the frustration.

I mean, we are the arguments we make. I still get ripped on for Kirk Cousins, and I'm cool with that.

Kyler needs room to grow, like I think Rosen did, but he hasn't done anything to budge my opinion from the vast majority of the offseason once we'd drafted him.

My argument all along has been that I don't think Kyler represented a significant upgrade from what we had, and thus far that's been pretty much true. I'm a traditionalist and think this game is still won in the trenches, which is where we're in bad shape. There aren't a ton of QBs I think could succeed in this particular situation.

Really? You think Rosen would’ve had similar experience at this juncture? 27, 17, and 20 points? In an admittedly small data set kyler is averaging 6pts more per game than did Rosen last year. I think Rosen would be on IR by now.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

Listened to Carson Palmer on Arizona Sports this morning and he is a big Kyler fan. He stated Kyler is progressing going into week four and nothing is concerning about his play that cant or wont be corrected going forward for this young QB.
Go to Arizona Sports 98.7 for a listen.
https://arizonasports.com/story/209...ls-rb-david-johnson-plays-best-when-in-space/

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I mean, they're real games with real action. I can't imagine there'd be a ton of complaints if he came out and looked great in those three games. There aren't any Giants fans complaining about Daniel Jones today.


I missed the drops that are being mentioned to Sherfield and Kirk, but what I saw in the first two games was primarily Kyler getting the ball to guys who were going mostly uncovered, which is kinda like what I saw on tape from Oklahoma. Time will tell if he can throw people open.

What he laid out to Kirk was one of the most beautiful bombs I’ve seen from a cardinals QB ever. Find tape of it. It’s beautiful. And while the sherfield pass wasn’t perfect, sherfield had no excuse on that one and I’m pretty certain that’s a walk in touchdown if he catches it. They were pretty egregious.

 

[Solar7]

Really? You think Rosen would’ve had similar experience at this juncture? 27, 17, and 20 points? In an admittedly small data set kyler is averaging 6pts more per game than did Rosen last year. I think Rosen would be on IR by now.

0 wins, which is all that really matters. Would Rosen have spent the first three quarters of the Lions game doing absolutely nothing? Would he have failed to convert in the red zone for multiple possessions against the Ravens?

No, he wouldn't have had 69 yards rushing yesterday in most likelihood, but if the final difference between replacing Josh Rosen with Kyler Murray is adding an additional tie to the record, then it wasn't really all that worth it.

Plenty of games to be played of course, and time for Kyler to improve, but the moves we made weren't with marginal improvement in mind.

 

[Covert Rain]

0 wins, which is all that really matters. Would Rosen have spent the first three quarters of the Lions game doing absolutely nothing? Would he have failed to convert in the red zone for multiple possessions against the Ravens?

No, he wouldn't have had 69 yards rushing yesterday in most likelihood, but if the final difference between replacing Josh Rosen with Kyler Murray is adding an additional tie to the record, then it wasn't really all that worth it.

Plenty of games to be played of course, and time for Kyler to improve, but the moves we made weren't with marginal improvement in mind.

I would say as a rookie it's possible yes (not the rushing yards) but the rest with this roster? Perfectly reasonable IMO.

 

[DVontel]

0 wins, which is all that really matters. Would Rosen have spent the first three quarters of the Lions game doing absolutely nothing? Would he have failed to convert in the red zone for multiple possessions against the Ravens?

No, he wouldn't have had 69 yards rushing yesterday in most likelihood, but if the final difference between replacing Josh Rosen with Kyler Murray is adding an additional tie to the record, then it wasn't really all that worth it.

Plenty of games to be played of course, and time for Kyler to improve, but the moves we made weren't with marginal improvement in mind.

Idk, he did that a majority of the season last year.

 

[CRC83]

My bad, for some reason I had him in the playoffs his rookie year, but the fact of the matter is that he clearly wasn't the problem that year, and if we were losing games but getting his kind of performance, we'd feel different right now.

Edit: And regardless of Dak & Russ's improved talent across the roster, you can't take away that they did what they did.

Not sure if it’s already been said, but what about the other 50+ quarterbacks that have been selected in the first round since 2000. The ones you list are the exception, not the rule. All have different situations, which makes it difficult to compare. And we are comparing them to a rookie that has played 3 games.

I think it’s sad that certain people want Kyler to fail. They may say they are fans and that they want him to succeed, but it seems their hate for Kyler is stronger than their love for the cards. Or maybe they care more about being right than cheering on their team. I’m not saying you have to like every player, but I don’t understand the hate for Kyler. Been an AZ sports fan my entire life and never witnessed something like this except for maybe players who had off the field/court issues.

 

[TheCardFan]

0 wins, which is all that really matters. Would Rosen have spent the first three quarters of the Lions game doing absolutely nothing? Would he have failed to convert in the red zone for multiple possessions against the Ravens?

No, he wouldn't have had 69 yards rushing yesterday in most likelihood, but if the final difference between replacing Josh Rosen with Kyler Murray is adding an additional tie to the record, then it wasn't really all that worth it.

Plenty of games to be played of course, and time for Kyler to improve, but the moves we made weren't with marginal improvement in mind.

Say what? I am a Rosen fan but he had an entire year to prove he wouldn't have done anything better vs the Lions or Ravens or Panthers.

Let me remind you sir...

Kyler's worst game is about as good as Rosen's best game.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Solar7]

Idk, he did that a majority of the season last year.

I don't know, he would have had more weapons this season than last. I'm just asking the questions in a rhetorical way, because the fact of the matter is we can't prove it one way or the other. The hope would be that Rosen would have a full offseason of work with his starting receivers and play in an offense he fully installed, not a cobbled together offensive scheme featuring leftover Mike McCoy concepts and Arians concepts he never learned in the first place.

 

[Solar7]

Not sure if it’s already been said, but what about the other 50+ quarterbacks that have been selected in the first round since 2000. The ones you list are the exception, not the rule. All have different situations, which makes it difficult to compare. And we are comparing them to a rookie that has played 3 games.

I think it’s sad that certain people want Kyler to fail. They may say they are fans and that they want him to succeed, but it seems their hate for Kyler is stronger than their love for the cards. Or maybe they care more about being right than cheering on their team. I’m not saying you have to like every player, but I don’t understand the hate for Kyler. Been an AZ sports fan my entire life and never witnessed something like this except for maybe players who had off the field/court issues.

The other 50+ QBs weren't the #1 overall pick. Guys like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, even Trubisky, Josh Allen, etc., showed success and had an impact on the W-L record in their first year. Goff has been one of the few exceptions, unless they flatly didn't play like Mahomes.

I'm not saying not to give him time, or that I hate him and want him to fail, but the only way the pick was worth it and not a disaster is if he finds a way to win at the end of the day, and hopefully win in a way where he's the reason we're winning, not just a caretaker for the rest of the offense.

Don't loop me in with anyone who says he's terrible or a mistake, I'm just waiting to be convinced still.

 

[Solar7]

Say what? I am a Rosen fan but he had an entire year to prove he wouldn't have done anything better vs the Lions or Ravens or Panthers.

Let me remind you sir...

Kyler's worst game is about as good as Rosen's best game.

You must be registered for see images attach

I mean, see my followup post. The point of keeping Rosen was to get him proper QB tutelage from a decent coach, provide him weapons, and hopefully an offensive line that would keep him from getting killed as soon as the ball was snapped.

Undoubtedly, Rosen had a bad year. The question is ultimately whether or not he was placed in a no-win scenario that no QB could overcome.

I feel like we're ignoring all of the extenuating circumstances and trying to look at this in a vacuum. It's not like the only element that changed year over year is the guy under center.

 

[CRC83]

The other 50+ QBs weren't the #1 overall pick. Guys like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, even Trubisky, Josh Allen, etc., showed success and had an impact on the W-L record in their first year. Goff has been one of the few exceptions, unless they flatly didn't play like Mahomes.

I'm not saying not to give him time, or that I hate him and want him to fail, but the only way the pick was worth it and not a disaster is if he finds a way to win at the end of the day, and hopefully win in a way where he's the reason we're winning, not just a caretaker for the rest of the offense.

Don't loop me in with anyone who says he's terrible or a mistake, I'm just waiting to be convinced still.

That’s fair. I think it’s partly my fault for having a hard time understanding why fans of a team would be more pessimistic than optimistic. Again, I’ve been a cards fan my entire life (36 yrs) so I know how painful it can be. Yet, I always still cheer for the team and find myself being optimistic about our players. I liked Rosen, and still do. I need to understand that not all fans operate and think like I do.

 

[Arz101]

I mean, they're real games with real action. I can't imagine there'd be a ton of complaints if he came out and looked great in those three games. There aren't any Giants fans complaining about Daniel Jones today.


I missed the drops that are being mentioned to Sherfield and Kirk, but what I saw in the first two games was primarily Kyler getting the ball to guys who were going mostly uncovered, which is kinda like what I saw on tape from Oklahoma. Time will tell if he can throw people open.

Oh. Yeah. Those two drops, in my opinion, changed the game feel to the 2015 championship blowout.

 

[MadCardDisease]

That’s fair. I think it’s partly my fault for having a hard time understanding why fans of a team would be more pessimistic than optimistic. Again, I’ve been a cards fan my entire life (36 hrs) so I know how painful it can be. Yet, I always still cheer for the team and find myself being optimistic about our players. I liked Rosen, and still do. I need to understand that not all fans operate and think like I do.

For being 36 hours old you are quite impressive! Also consider yourself lucky. You haven't missed much over the last 7 decades.

 

[Cheesebeef]

okay... I just rewetted the first 3 quarters. Murray was playing GREAT. Had 69 yards rushing, was very accurate and had us 20 points, which should have been more. That bomb to Kirk was PERFECT and should have netted us another 3 at least before the half and that Sherfield drop was just pathetic. Right there, Kyler was doing EVERYTHING right and this team should have had 27 points on the board in the 3rd.

that said, he was truly awful in the 4th. But he's a rookie. I don't know what some of you are expecting. I really think most of you keep letting some posters' over-the-top proclamations of his greatness said all off-season totally color your view of what's happening now. If you just looked at what was happening without all that rancor built up, I think pretty much EVERYONE would be pretty stoked about this kid's future. He's are rookie, with a rookie HC and an awful O-line. He's going to be up and down. But so far, in three games he's shown SOOOOOOO much more upside than Rosen and remember, that's coming from the guy who almost got banned because of my Rosen One shtick at the draft two years ago.

I'm excited about him.

 

[BW52]

That’s fair. I think it’s partly my fault for having a hard time understanding why fans of a team would be more pessimistic than optimistic. Again, I’ve been a cards fan my entire life (36 hrs) so I know how painful it can be. Yet, I always still cheer for the team and find myself being optimistic about our players. I liked Rosen, and still do. I need to understand that not all fans operate and think like I do.

Try being a fan over 50 years and seeing many many drafts that make you shake your head. Speaking for myself I hated the KM pick and would rather went defense.First and foremost I am a Cards fan and although hating the pick then the fact remains the KM is the QB and it is what it is.I root for the team and will always be a fan.

 

[Solar7]

That’s fair. I think it’s partly my fault for having a hard time understanding why fans of a team would be more pessimistic than optimistic. Again, I’ve been a cards fan my entire life (36 hrs) so I know how painful it can be. Yet, I always still cheer for the team and find myself being optimistic about our players. I liked Rosen, and still do. I need to understand that not all fans operate and think like I do.

Last year broke me. I’ve always been overly positive.

Hell, there’s even one year I thought Jason McAddley could be a #1 receiver. Matt Leinart a franchise QB. There were old Cardinals teams where I was seriously looking at the schedule with 8 losses on the schedule convincing myself the Cardinals could win out.

I thought last year was going to be solid, that we had a chance to continue some Arians years. We looked so putrid that I had to stop and finally look at the destruction Keim inflicted on the roster. And then to hire a LOSING college coach? Draft the shortest QB in the first round in NFL history? Sink a ton of cost while doing so?

I just can’t be bright when I disagree with everything.

 

[Solar7]

That’s fair. I think it’s partly my fault for having a hard time understanding why fans of a team would be more pessimistic than optimistic. Again, I’ve been a cards fan my entire life (36 hrs) so I know how painful it can be. Yet, I always still cheer for the team and find myself being optimistic about our players. I liked Rosen, and still do. I need to understand that not all fans operate and think like I do.

Last year broke me. I’ve always been overly positive.

Hell, there’s even one year I thought Jason McAddley could be a #1 receiver. Matt Leinart a franchise QB. There were old Cardinals teams where I was seriously looking at the schedule with 8 losses on the schedule convincing myself the Cardinals could win out.

I thought last year was going to be solid, that we had a chance to continue some Arians years. We looked so putrid that I had to stop and finally look at the destruction Keim inflicted on the roster. And then to hire a LOSING college coach? Draft the shortest QB in the first round in NFL history? Sink a ton of cost while doing so?

I just can’t be bright when I disagree with everything.

 

[CRC83]

For being 36 hours old you are quite impressive! Also consider yourself lucky. You haven't missed much over the last 7 decades.

Haha wow I actually wrote 36 hrs. I thought you just edited it to be funny at first. Hit the “h” when I meant “y”.

 

[CRC83]

Last year broke me. I’ve always been overly positive.

Hell, there’s even one year I thought Jason McAddley could be a #1 receiver. Matt Leinart a franchise QB. There were old Cardinals teams where I was seriously looking at the schedule with 8 losses on the schedule convincing myself the Cardinals could win out.

I thought last year was going to be solid, that we had a chance to continue some Arians years. We looked so putrid that I had to stop and finally look at the destruction Keim inflicted on the roster. And then to hire a LOSING college coach? Draft the shortest QB in the first round in NFL history? Sink a ton of cost while doing so?

I just can’t be bright when I disagree with everything.

I will say that I am not a fan of Keim and agree he has made a number of bad moves. However, I don’t believe Kyler will be a mistake and I’m letting KK have some time before I judge. I’m hoping he can be successful. I could be wrong, but overall I am happy with what I have seen with Kyler.

This early in a player’s career, especially for a QB, I look more at the positive knowing that it will likely be a bit up and down. While Kyler has had some bad moments, you can see something special in those good moments. Hopefully he ends up being worth that 1st pick.

 

[slanidrac16]

0 wins, which is all that really matters. Would Rosen have spent the first three quarters of the Lions game doing absolutely nothing? Would he have failed to convert in the red zone for multiple possessions against the Ravens?

No, he wouldn't have had 69 yards rushing yesterday in most likelihood, but if the final difference between replacing Josh Rosen with Kyler Murray is adding an additional tie to the record, then it wasn't really all that worth it.

Plenty of games to be played of course, and time for Kyler to improve, but the moves we made weren't with marginal improvement in mind.

We don’t know if Rosen would have failed in the red zone.... he never got us there.

 

[Dr. Jones]

What he laid out to Kirk was one of the most beautiful bombs I’ve seen from a cardinals QB ever. Find tape of it. It’s beautiful. And while the sherfield pass wasn’t perfect, sherfield had no excuse on that one and I’m pretty certain that’s a walk in touchdown if he catches it. They were pretty egregious.

Sherfields miss looked exactly like the TD catch Mecole Hardman had for the Chiefs. I'm confident that he missed it due to talent, not placement.

And that bomb happened in real-time-slo-motion for me. I couldn't believe how perfect it was. The drop was so demoralizing for me.

173 yards to 250 yards (at least) just like that. Over 8.43ypa to under 5.8ypa just like that. And 74% comp rate to 69.8 as well.

More good days will come friends..... I am confident of that.