Demeco Ryans

[cardsfanmd]

Actually I think it would be incredibly ballsy to trade away a couple picks to secure a budding linebacker.

Thinking scared was trading out of the 6th pick to get Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace when a solid LB that wanted to play in Arizona was staring us in the face.

To each their own, but for a guy that plays all 3 downs, was rookie of the year, has been to two pro bowls already, I'd be willing to chance that the guys we pick in the first and 3rd aren't going to be as good as him. We upgrade the position from KD IMO.

Then we go into the draft and we can pick BPA. Right now, we're looking at picking based on need. What happens if no good MLB's are available when we pick?

Whiz has always said he likes to sign players to fill needs and then go BPA in the draft.

This move would fit the bill.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

And we'll just have to agree

 

[Duckjake]

The issue then becomes we have very little left in draft picks so we will be forced to draft for need. That being a CB and another ILB and who is our NT?

Gabe Watson.

NT is not a "glaring" need like WILB. It is a spot that the Cards have an excellent opportunity in this draft to upgrade the talent level and have a younger player to rotate in at NT instead of Robinson.

Personally I think Watson is being underrated by many people here and expect him to be even better this season after another year to recover from his 2008 injury.

 

[Cardiac]

Gabe Watson.

NT is not a "glaring" need like WILB. It is a spot that the Cards have an excellent opportunity in this draft to upgrade the talent level and have a younger player to rotate in at NT instead of Robinson.

Personally I think Watson is being underrated by many people here and expect him to be even better this season after another year to recover from his 2008 injury.

I was a big Watson fan but he hasn't been the same since he broke his knee cap. As you have pointed out our run D turned into crap in the 2nd half of the season. Robinson wearing down? Hayes back issue for sure. Watson not able to step up and be a true NT force.

Hope Watson's knee is 100% and he is back on the time table he should be productivity wise for a 4th year player.

For me, at this point, Watson = Lenon as to determining if there are holes to fill. That's probably a bit of an over statement but not by much.

 

[Pariah]

I've been giving this some thought in the last couple of days, and I think it might be worth making an offer (though I'd bet the Texans match).

My thinking is based on the premise that we'd be looking to draft a LB in the first anyway, so it's not exactly like CFMD proposed--we wouldn't be trading Beanie and third, we'd be trading (as an example) Weatherspoon and a third. What you're basically doing is sacrificing your third rounder as a hedge against your first round pick being a bust.

I'd actually think offering a 1st and a third a pretty shrewd move by Graves if he were to do it.

 

[ARZCardinals]

I'd give that deal for Ryans....seeing it's our #26 and a low end 3rd....sure...take it for a top 3 YOUNG LB. All depends on the $$$....if he's wanting Dansby $....forget it.

 

[JeffGollin]

No, that's not right. If a player signs an offer sheet, the original team (in this case, the Texans) has 5-7 days (I forget how long, but I think it's 5) to elect to match the offer. They don't have to better the offer, they only have to accept it as their own.

If the original team declines to accept the offer, then the player going to the offering team, and the offering team gives compensation to the original team.

That's my understanding too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a tender offer designation (1st & 3rd; 1st only; 3rd only etc.) helps set the salary ceiling if no one makes an offer; but in case one or more offers did get made, the most they'd have to pay would be whatever they'd have to match from the highest bidder.

That leads me to believe the Texans are doing little more than establishing the market-price for Ryans so that they can hang onto control of what they eventually have to pay him.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I've been giving this some thought in the last couple of days, and I think it might be worth making an offer (though I'd bet the Texans match).

My thinking is based on the premise that we'd be looking to draft a LB in the first anyway, so it's not exactly like CFMD proposed--we wouldn't be trading Beanie and third, we'd be trading (as an example) Weatherspoon and a third. What you're basically doing is sacrificing your third rounder as a hedge against your first round pick being a bust.

I'd actually think offering a 1st and a third a pretty shrewd move by Graves if he were to do it.

FWIW, I was just using Beanie as an example because he was a late-1st round pick.

 

[kerouac9]

Gabe Watson.

NT is not a "glaring" need like WILB. It is a spot that the Cards have an excellent opportunity in this draft to upgrade the talent level and have a younger player to rotate in at NT instead of Robinson.

Personally I think Watson is being underrated by many people here and expect him to be even better this season after another year to recover from his 2008 injury.

Gabe Watson couldn't beat out Bryan Robinson for PT last season. He was being pushed for PT by Alan Branch (who did see some time at NT in pass rush situations. I'd be hard pressed to say that we're much better off at NT than we are at ILB with Lenon. There's one player there, but he's probably bad.

I've been giving this some thought in the last couple of days, and I think it might be worth making an offer (though I'd bet the Texans match).

My thinking is based on the premise that we'd be looking to draft a LB in the first anyway, so it's not exactly like CFMD proposed--we wouldn't be trading Beanie and third, we'd be trading (as an example) Weatherspoon and a third. What you're basically doing is sacrificing your third rounder as a hedge against your first round pick being a bust.

I'd actually think offering a 1st and a third a pretty shrewd move by Graves if he were to do it.

We'd be trading Weatherspoon, a third, and a Karlos Dansby-type contract. Maybe more, since Ryans is a two-time Pro Bowler and Dansby never made it. That's too high a price.

 

[lobo]

Call me crazy, but I think giving up a 1st and 3rd rounder for this kid is worth it. He's been productive on a pretty bad defense and he's still young. You plug him into KD's old spot and our defense just got a whole lot better.

I'm not saying he's Ray Lewis, but knowing what you know now about Ray Ray, would you have given up a 1st and 3rd for him back then? I would have.

you're not crazy, but that is kinda' rich....ryans is awfully good tho'

 

[Pariah]

FWIW, I was just using Beanie as an example because he was a late-1st round pick.

I know, but it's not a good comparison because you're creating a need in your scenario, in the trade for Ryans (no matter what you think of it), you're still filling a hole rather than creating one.

That's my only point.

The contract may indeed become too rich to make the deal make sense--I don't know what he'd command-- but if we're just talking about pick value vs the player, I'm all for it.

If you don't think our first rounder ought to be a LB, then that changes the balance of the scales, too.

 

[Duckjake]

Gabe Watson couldn't beat out Bryan Robinson for PT last season. He was being pushed for PT by Alan Branch (who did see some time at NT in pass rush situations. I'd be hard pressed to say that we're much better off at NT than we are at ILB with Lenon. There's one player there, but he's probably bad.

Like I said Watson is extremely underrated. I don't believe anyone beat out someone else at NT for playing time. I think the Cards simply use a rotation to keep guys fresh and depending on down and distance.

Branch never got close to pushing Watson for playing time and was considered a huge bust until he moved outside. He wasn't even active for most games in 2008 despite Watson not being 100% recovered from his injury.

I'd compare Watson to Hayes. A guy who plays decent but not spectacular football on Sundays. (and the occasional Monday and Saturday and Thursday)

 

[cardsfanmd]

I know, but it's not a good comparison because you're creating a need in your scenario, in the trade for Ryans (no matter what you think of it), you're still filling a hole rather than creating one.

That's my only point.

The contract may indeed become too rich to make the deal make sense--I don't know what he'd command-- but if we're just talking about pick value vs the player, I'm all for it.

If you don't think our first rounder ought to be a LB, then that changes the balance of the scales, too.

Yeah, I don't think we're that desperate that the 1st pick needs to be a WILB. Guys like Spikes, Sean Lee and AJ Edds may very well be available in the second. All three will be as good as Dansby in the near future IMO.

 

[BigDavis75]

Like I said Watson is extremely underrated. I don't believe anyone beat out someone else at NT for playing time. I think the Cards simply use a rotation to keep guys fresh and depending on down and distance.

Branch never got close to pushing Watson for playing time and was considered a huge bust until he moved outside. He wasn't even active for most games in 2008 despite Watson not being 100% recovered from his injury.

I'd compare Watson to Hayes. A guy who plays decent but not spectacular football on Sundays. (and the occasional Monday and Saturday and Thursday)

Neither of these guys gave us any help down the stretch and if we intend to have a better defense, neither of them should be full time starters.

 

[Duckjake]

Neither of these guys gave us any help down the stretch and if we intend to have a better defense, neither of them should be full time starters.

That's why I said that the Cards are in a position to upgrade the talent at NT but are not nearly as bad off as they are at Dansby's old spot.

The Cards went to the playoffs twice and went to the Super Bowl allowing only 75 yards per game rushing during the post season with Gabe Watson and Bryan Robinson.

I also don't think we'll ever see a full time starter at NT for Arizona. They like the rotation of players at the Nose.

 

[kerouac9]

Like I said Watson is extremely underrated. I don't believe anyone beat out someone else at NT for playing time. I think the Cards simply use a rotation to keep guys fresh and depending on down and distance.

Branch never got close to pushing Watson for playing time and was considered a huge bust until he moved outside. He wasn't even active for most games in 2008 despite Watson not being 100% recovered from his injury.

I'd compare Watson to Hayes. A guy who plays decent but not spectacular football on Sundays. (and the occasional Monday and Saturday and Thursday)

The big difference to me is that Gabe Watson was only on the field for 359 plays. For comparison's sake, Bryan Robinson was playing for 421 plays (essentially and entire game's worth of PT). Alan Branch was in the lineup for 410 plays in 2009. How is this "underrated"? He's essentially right now a third or fourth defensive tackle who is sitting right now in the #1 NT position on the depth chart.

And I'm saying this as someone who loved Gabe Watson before the knee injury... but now you just can't depend on him.

 

[BigDavis75]

That's why I said that the Cards are in a position to upgrade the talent at NT but are not nearly as bad off as they are at Dansby's old spot.

The Cards went to the playoffs twice and went to the Super Bowl allowing only 75 yards per game rushing during the post season with Gabe Watson and Bryan Robinson.

I also don't think we'll ever see a full time starter at NT for Arizona. They like the rotation of players at the Nose.

I agree ILB is a huge need, but right behind that is NT. The two ILB spots and our NT spot are the three biggest needs on defense and for us to be a good D, all three of those positions need to be upgraded. Gabe can't beat our Robinson, there is no one of mention at WILB, and Gerald Hayes was a shell of himself last year. These are all changes that need to be made and competition/new starters can and should be provided in the draft.

 

[Duckjake]

The big difference to me is that Gabe Watson was only on the field for 359 plays. For comparison's sake, Bryan Robinson was playing for 421 plays (essentially and entire game's worth of PT). Alan Branch was in the lineup for 410 plays in 2009. How is this "underrated"? He's essentially right now a third or fourth defensive tackle who is sitting right now in the #1 NT position on the depth chart.

And I'm saying this as someone who loved Gabe Watson before the knee injury... but now you just can't depend on him.

Wow 70 more plays out of over 1000. That's huge. NOT. Branch plays in the rotation at DE so how many plays he has is irrelevant. Robinson and Watson had basically the same stats last season.

The Cards have NO Defensive Tackles so how can you say he's the 3rd or 4th? Again I say that you and others vastly underrate Watson.

BTW: where do you get your # of plays for each guy?

 

[Rats]

I see a solid rotation going forward with Watson, Branch, and draft pick inside with DD, Campbell, and Iwebbema manning the outside. Robinson is basically not coming back so the draft pick better be a player because Branch will get time at both NT and DE. Watson when healthy is a beast...but he has been pretty beat up and spotty in his play last season and the year before. I would love to see him healthy with Branch spelling DD and Campbell. If we control TOP on offense this could be a very good group. But you will have to get to the Qb and not let them run the field or these guys will wear down quick.

 

[kerouac9]

Wow 70 more plays out of over 1000. That's huge. NOT. Branch plays in the rotation at DE so how many plays he has is irrelevant. Robinson and Watson had basically the same stats last season.

The Cards have NO Defensive Tackles so how can you say he's the 3rd or 4th? Again I say that you and others vastly underrate Watson.

BTW: where do you get your # of plays for each guy?

I mean that on a team that had a legit NT, he'd be a 3rd or 4th player in a rotation. I just don't believe that he's a guy you want leading your lineup or in 2/3rds of your run down situations.

I got the plays list from ProFootballFocus.com. I hate hate hate their player rankings (and think that people who use them for arguments automatically defeat themselves), but I do think that some of their numbers are cool.