Deandre Ayton discussion

[Chaplin]

There are other models of successful centers. Jokic, as a point center, is an unrealistic goal for DA. That is not his skill set. Embiid as the center point of the offense AND defense is also an unrealistic goal for DA, not because of his skill set but because of the make-up of the rest of the team. Actually, I think its a mistake for Philly to build a team that way. That model will ultimately fail in truly competing for a championship.

Here is where it gets complicated. I think DA's ceiling IS Joel Embiid, and I don't think that's an unrealistic goal on an individual basis. Can you imagine an Embiid type of talent on a team where he isn't the center of attention? THAT'S what DA's #1 goal should be. Forget about the team stuff, he needs to improve himself to be able to provide the kind of weapons that Embiid does to the Sixers. We don't have to build around that, but instead take advantage of those skills in the team we already have.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Suns are not going to let Ayton walk. Most big men do not really blossom until 25 years old. If they were not willing to wait that long, they should never have drafted a center.

sorry. This just isn’t true. Maybe they don’t reach their full potential, but... eh, forget it. I’ve literally done a run down on all the best big men drafted high like Ayton over the years and showed their ascensions were very quick. Ain’t gonna do it again.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

The Suns are not going to let Ayton walk. Most big men do not really blossom until 25 years old. If they were not willing to wait that long, they should never have drafted a center.

The only thing that throws a wrench in this thought is that he was drafted by the prior regime. James Jones may not feel any need to vindicate the organization by signing Ayton to a max deal, he's not his guy.

 

[Chaplin]

The only thing that throws a wrench in this thought is that he was drafted by the prior regime. James Jones may not feel any need to vindicate the organization by signing Ayton to a max deal, he's not his guy.

Do you honestly think Robert Sarver would go along with that sentiment?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Here is where it gets complicated. I think DA's ceiling IS Joel Embiid, and I don't think that's an unrealistic goal on an individual basis. Can you imagine an Embiid type of talent on a team where he isn't the center of attention? THAT'S what DA's #1 goal should be. Forget about the team stuff, he needs to improve himself to be able to provide the kind of weapons that Embiid does to the Sixers. We don't have to build around that, but instead take advantage of those skills in the team we already have.

man... BINGO CHAP. That hits it right on the head. Right now, we’re a very solid, Playoff contender. If Ayton’s offensive game had actually showed progression this season, I think we would not only be a legit title contender... we could actually be the favorite.

Teams that win titles can attack in a multitude of ways. Usually you need three guys that can really create for themselves or others when games bog down in the playoffs. Ayton should be that third guy.

 

[JCSunsfan]

sorry. This just isn’t true. Maybe they don’t reach their full potential, but... eh, forget it. I’ve literally done a run down on all the best big men drafted high like Ayton over the years and showed their ascensions were very quick. Ain’t gonna do it again.

I am talking about age, not years in the league. Just a clarification. Not wanting to start an argument. Personally, I am just not up to it.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

Do you honestly think Robert Sarver would go along with that sentiment?

Well, it SEEMS like James Jones has a decent amount of independence from Sarver to reshape the roster the way he sees fit. Maybe I'm way off.

 

[Chaplin]

man... BINGO CHAP. That hits it right on the head. Right now, we’re a very solid, Playoff contender. If Ayton’s offensive game had actually showed progression this season, I think we would not only be a legit title contender... we could actually be the favorite.

Teams that win titles can attack in a multitude of ways. Usually you need three guys that can really create for themselves or others when games bog down in the playoffs. Ayton should be that third guy.

Frame this, @Ouchie-Z-Clown.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, it SEEMS like James Jones has a decent amount of independence from Sarver to reshape the roster the way he sees fit. Maybe I'm way off.

When it comes to Ayton, you may be. Not only was he the franchise's ONLY #1 pick in it's history, he's also a UofA guy. Getting rid of Ayton like that would tarnish what little legacy the guy has as owner of this team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The only thing that throws a wrench in this thought is that he was drafted by the prior regime. James Jones may not feel any need to vindicate the organization by signing Ayton to a max deal, he's not his guy.

Good grief. Do you all really believe that front offices really make their decisions about "saving face" etc? I can see a front office hanging on to a guy because they believe in his future, but not just so they don't look bad. James Jones (and Sarver too) have to know that the quickest way to actually BEING bad is to be worried about LOOKING bad.

Ayton is a top 10 center in the league. His skill set fits this present team and is contributing to its success. If there is another deal out there that makes the TEAM better and gets them closer to competing for a championship, fine, do it. Its time to forget about where he was drafted and just look at the player and the fit. But be very careful about tinkering with success and throwing away talent too early. Ayton was not the best #1 pick ever, but he wasnt a bust pick either. You can build a very good team by having good but not great draft picks.

Jerry Colangelo was a gambler and a tinkerer. He was always trying to get better and many times made it worse, not better, when trying to fine-tune.

McDonough was like a kid with trading cards. He was always trying to win deals, but did not seem to understand the concept of a team at all.

James Jones seems to understand the concept of a team and will make everything else subject to that. He wants good deals, but making the team better seems to be what defines a good deal to him. We have a small sample set on him so far, but he has done pretty well for a rookie GM. It will be interesting to see what his view of Ayton really is. I don't think he will care at all where Ayton was picked, and I don't think he will care if Ayton puts up superstar numbers or not. He will want the player that fits the team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am talking about age, not years in the league. Just a clarification. Not wanting to start an argument. Personally, I am just not up to it.

I think if you did the research (which I’ve done and posted before), you’d find that at 22, most of the really good big men’s games on offense was much further along. And certainly not regressing in year 3.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Frame this, @Ouchie-Z-Clown.

You guys are BFFs now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good grief. Do you all really believe that front offices really make their decisions about "saving face" etc? I can see a front office hanging on to a guy because they believe in his future, but not just so they don't look bad. James Jones (and Sarver too) have to know that the quickest way to actually BEING bad is to be worried about LOOKING bad.

Ayton is a top 10 center in the league. His skill set fits this present team and is contributing to its success. If there is another deal out there that makes the TEAM better and gets them closer to competing for a championship, fine, do it. Its time to forget about where he was drafted and just look at the player and the fit. But be very careful about tinkering with success and throwing away talent too early. Ayton was not the best #1 pick ever, but he wasnt a bust pick either. You can build a very good team by having good but not great draft picks.

being a top 10 Center in today’s NBA where there aren’t a lot of great Centers isn’t that special.

he can just be so much more. People talk about what the missing piece is to make this team a legit title contender... it’s him. Right now, I think we’re a legit playoff contender set and I am stoked about that. But we’ve probably only got a two or three year window with CP3 and if Ayton had stepped up this year, I think we could seriously challenge for the title. Maybe we can anyway. I don’t think this team has much of a shot to beat the Lakers with Ayton playing the way he is and our window is small. That’s why he’s so frustrating to some of us.

 

[Chaplin]

I think if you did the research (which I’ve done and posted before), you’d find that at 22, most of the really good big men’s games on offense was much further along. And certainly not regressing in year 3.

Not saying it matters, but I'm curious to know what the team context is on the previous centers. Did some of the greats have teams as "good" as the team Ayton has around him in year 3? What about coaching?

Might not matter, but it is interesting to look at. I wish he had Chris Paul his rookie year. And a better coach than Igor as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not saying it matters, but I'm curious to know what the team context is on the previous centers. Did some of the greats have teams as "good" as the team Ayton has around him in year 3? What about coaching?

Might not matter, but it is interesting to look at. I wish he had Chris Paul his rookie year. And a better coach than Igor as well.

Igor... oy. What an epic disaster that was.

not sure on the above. I think what really bothers me is just the stark lack of aggression this year. And we saw that from the jump.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As if on cue, the ringer today has an article all about Ayton. Pretty good and fair read, talking up strengths and weaknesses.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/2/16/22284776/deadre-ayton-phoenix-suns

 

[JCSunsfan]

As if on cue, the ringer today has an article all about Ayton. Pretty good and fair read, talking up strengths and weaknesses.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/2/16/22284776/deadre-ayton-phoenix-suns

I agree. Looks like a pretty fair assessment to me. Takes into account the infusion of talent. How many touches a game does DA get? I wonder how that compares with other centers. I will research it when I get a chance unless someone gets to it before me.

 

[Sunburn]

Igor... oy. What an epic disaster that was.

not sure on the above. I think what really bothers me is just the stark lack of aggression this year. And we saw that from the jump.

I still have no idea why we hired Doncic's Slovenian National team coach, then passed on Doncic in the draft. What an epic smokescreen that was. The league will never see it coming. We sure fooled them. For the love of God, whyyyyyy???

 

[95pro]

Ayton will get the max. He'll turn it up next season because: 1) It's his contract year and 2) his previous comments made it seem like he was only after attaining a max contract. He's just working the system, low output for the maximum amount of return.

The suns have way too much to lose at this point. I honestly think we could fit Drummond into this team and carry on with our current roster, but Ayton will always be thought of to have the higher ceiling.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

As if on cue, the ringer today has an article all about Ayton. Pretty good and fair read, talking up strengths and weaknesses.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/2/16/22284776/deadre-ayton-phoenix-suns

Excellent article

 

[Chaplin]

Excellent article

The last paragraph is interesting. It sounded suspiciously like the early-2000s type of Power Forward, not a center.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

As if on cue, the ringer today has an article all about Ayton. Pretty good and fair read, talking up strengths and weaknesses.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/2/16/22284776/deadre-ayton-phoenix-suns

Good, fair, accurate, and depressing article. I’m glad we aren’t the only ones noticing the woeful FT stats.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Good, fair, accurate, and depressing article. I’m glad we aren’t the only ones noticing the woeful FT stats.

Was DA called for a lot of offensive fouls in hs or college? His play looks like he is afraid of foul trouble more than he is afraid of contact.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Was DA called for a lot of offensive fouls in hs or college? His play looks like he is afraid of foul trouble more than he is afraid of contact.

Really? I disagree. He often looks like he’s afraid of getting his shot swatted.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Really? I disagree. He often looks like he’s afraid of getting his shot swatted.

agreed. He looks scared and unsure of himself down low.