Clancy and Brown to be released

[Pariah]

Yea. Pretty simple question.



You read indignation in my response but his question is mearly "simple"?

Allow me to respond in kind. Get over yourself.

What's not simple about wondering aloud where the information is coming from? A response w/o indignation may have just provided the answer.

 

[Redheart]

What's not simple about wondering aloud where the information is coming from? ....

Maybe it was the delivery?

 

[Pariah]

Maybe it was the delivery?

Maybe.

 

[Zeno]

C'mon Zeno--

there are coaches that adjust their system to players, but there are no coaches that adjust their system to accomodate every single player on the roster, or even last year's starting 22.

You adjust you system to fit your most talented players -- not for every role player on your roster.

I consider Brown more talented at OG than Wells or Gandy...Femi is a role player as for Clancy its debatable if he is more talented than Watson or Branch as of right now (in the future I am sure they both will be better).

Also if we have the players for a 4-3, why switch to a 3-4 if you adjust your system to fit your players?

 

[ajcardfan]

I consider Brown more talented at OG than Wells or Gandy...Femi is a role player as for Clancy its debatable if he is more talented than Watson or Branch as of right now (in the future I am sure they both will be better).

Also if we have the players for a 4-3, why switch to a 3-4 if you adjust your system to fit your players?

Because if you are going to make major changes, a coach has to do it in year 1. Early on, it sounded like Whis wouldn't shake it up too much. But, he has obviously decided to pretty much overhaul the entire team.

 

[kerouac9]

Because if you are going to make major changes, a coach has to do it in year 1. Early on, it sounded like Whis wouldn't shake it up too much. But, he has obviously decided to pretty much overhaul the entire team.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean major philosophical changes (like Power running instead of West Coast passing offense or Tampa-2 instead of Zone Blitz 3-4), or major personnel changes? Denny said when he came that major personnel changes usually come in the second offseason, once the coaching staff knows what they have on-hand. I think that tends to be the pattern--for example, Jon Gruden didn't start overhauling the Bucs' offense until after they won the Super Bowl.

I'm not sure that I understand why you're going to overhaul the roster and the philosophy in year 1 while keeping important parts of the old coaching staff around (like Pendergast).

 

[football karma]

I consider Brown more talented at OG than Wells or Gandy...Femi is a role player as for Clancy its debatable if he is more talented than Watson or Branch as of right now (in the future I am sure they both will be better).

Also if we have the players for a 4-3, why switch to a 3-4 if you adjust your system to fit your players?

The point is that I dont think any coach would show up here and say "man, I dont want to mess with Milford Brown. I know he doesnt move well laterally, or pull well, or block in space well like my blocking scheme asks of its guards, so I guess I better adjust my blocking schemes".

The fact that Wis hasnt adjusted his system to accomodate a journeyman guard is hardly evidence that he isnt adjusting his system at all.

As for the 3-4 -- the team played a 3-4 for the StL, Seattle, SF, SD games at the end of last year. I think we have to at least consider the possibility that it was something Clancy wanted to do anyway, and was a key factor in him keeping the D coordinator job.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The point is that I dont think any coach would show up here and say "man, I dont want to mess with Milford Brown. I know he doesnt move well laterally, or pull well, or block in space well like my blocking scheme asks of its guards, so I guess I better adjust my blocking schemes".

The fact that Wis hasnt adjusted his system to accomodate a journeyman guard is hardly evidence that he isnt adjusting his system at all.

As for the 3-4 -- the team played a 3-4 for the StL, Seattle, SF, SD games at the end of last year. I think we have to at least consider the possibility that it was something Clancy wanted to do anyway, and was a key factor in him keeping the D coordinator job.

as far as adjusting to the system.... There is no guarantee that Edge will be able to adjust running behind a fullback. We might as well cut him too.

I hate these cuts. Just in case you didn't know my position.

 

[football karma]

as far as adjusting to the system.... There is no guarantee that Edge will be able to adjust running behind a fullback. We might as well cut him too.

I hate these cuts. Just in case you didn't know my position.

so at the end of the day -- where we are at is: We wanted a new coach, but want him to run the exact same system that the old one ran -- with no changes.

I think a 5-11 football team could probably stand some change.

Just in case you dont know my position: Today, I would rather have Brown/Clancy as depth even though they arent good fits than (lets say) Elton Brown and Jon Lewis. I am not happy that the cap was mismanaged and forced this move.

At the same time, I just dont see this as either: A. Costing the Cards a game; B. Evidence that this is full fledged tear the roster down to nothing and start over effort; or C. This means Wis isnt adjusting his system to the talent on the roster.

 

[ajcardfan]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean major philosophical changes (like Power running instead of West Coast passing offense or Tampa-2 instead of Zone Blitz 3-4), or major personnel changes? Denny said when he came that major personnel changes usually come in the second offseason, once the coaching staff knows what they have on-hand. I think that tends to be the pattern--for example, Jon Gruden didn't start overhauling the Bucs' offense until after they won the Super Bowl.

I'm not sure that I understand why you're going to overhaul the roster and the philosophy in year 1 while keeping important parts of the old coaching staff around (like Pendergast).

You'll usually see an overturn of about two dozen guys, at least, when a new coach comes in. The first year is also the time to make a major philosophy shift, not year two or three. After year one, the honeymoon is over, the heat is on to win. So, we're seeing a bit of both.

 

[joeshmo]

You'll usually see an overturn of about two dozen guys, at least, when a new coach comes in. The first year is also the time to make a major philosophy shift, not year two or three. After year one, the honeymoon is over, the heat is on to win. So, we're seeing a bit of both.

I would agree. But the first thing Wiz told us was that there will not be a big turn over because he felt the talent was already here, and that he would make schemes around the players and not try to force players into schemes.

Now I am not saying that 3 players so far is anywhere close to a big turn over, just that I dont think there will be that big of a turn over anywhere close to 2 dozen players.

 

[ajcardfan]

I would agree. But the first thing Wiz told us was that there will not be a big turn over because he felt the talent was already here, and that he would make schemes around the players and not try to force players into schemes.

Now I am not saying that 3 players so far is anywhere close to a big turn over, just that I dont think there will be that big of a turn over anywhere close to 2 dozen players.

By the time it's all said and done, there will be at least 20 new names on the 53 man roster. Most of the turnover will be on the bottom half of the roster of course.

 

[joeshmo]

By the time it's all said and done, there will be at least 20 new names on the 53 man roster. Most of the turnover will be on the bottom half of the roster of course.

After thinking about it. Is 20 new faces really that big of a turnover?

I would think that on average there are 10 new faces minimum on every team in the league just from rookies and only a few new FA alone.

I would be curious to see how much turnover NE has every year even though they are in a winning set system for some time now. This year alone they may be at about 15 after all the FA they signed and the draft picks they have.

It would be very intersting to know what the average turnover ratio is in the league.

 

[Skkorpion]

En fuego, good stuff.

 

[Stout]

En Fuego, you are dead on in that Whiz should not have to adjust his system. Where you miss, however, is that you undervalue the impact these two cuts have on our depth. It's worse with Brown, but also with Clancy. We HAD no OL depth PRIOR to the cut. We even had a few spots where many people could justifiably argue that the starters weren't good enough. Now the situation is worse. On the D-line, we wen't from having good depth at the position to shaky, questionable depth. Not a good shift, IMO, for something that should never have been necessary.

 

[Zeno]

The fact that Wis hasnt adjusted his system to accomodate a journeyman guard is hardly evidence that he isnt adjusting his system at all.

As for the 3-4 -- the team played a 3-4 for the StL, Seattle, SF, SD games at the end of last year. I think we have to at least consider the possibility that it was something Clancy wanted to do anyway, and was a key factor in him keeping the D coordinator job.

You are missing my point by a mile, don't come in here and say "I will adjust my system to the talent at hand" if you will do nothing of the sort. Rather just don't say anything. They STILL haven't admitted to changing to a 3-4, still saying our base defense is the 4-3 when everything points to that not being the truth. What sense does that make?

I still contend the best coaches adjust to their talent on hand in EVERY sport not just football. Trying to fit square pegs in to round holes by forcing your system on players is a flat out guarantee to a losing season.

I'm not expecting him to run the same system as Green, I'm expecting him to make with what he has available. Make better decisions on the field, have a better prepared team, make game day adjustments--you know the things we were missing with Green. I don't think anyone would argue that we were a team that was seriously devoid of talent just we were often outcoached and unprepared. This team doesn't need a rebuild, it just needs more direction.

And I am not asking him to adjust his system to accomodate Brown, I am expecting him to take the best talent he has available and utilize them in the best way that will help out this team.

But whatever again...he is gonna do what he is gonna do, I really want it to work, I have no emotional attachment to Milford Brown or Kendrick Clancy or Femi. I want success for the team and these moves don't make me think the Cardinals are a better team with out them or with them.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

En Fuego, you are dead on in that Whiz should not have to adjust his system. Where you miss, however, is that you undervalue the impact these two cuts have on our depth. It's worse with Brown, but also with Clancy. We HAD no OL depth PRIOR to the cut. We even had a few spots where many people could justifiably argue that the starters weren't good enough. Now the situation is worse. On the D-line, we wen't from having good depth at the position to shaky, questionable depth. Not a good shift, IMO, for something that should never have been necessary.

Stout, another well written and logical post, as usual.

But I disagree and here's why:

I saw E. Brown play for 13 games in 2005. He wasn't bad for a rook.

I also saw M. Brown play for 13 games last year. He was okay. Let me repeat, he was okay.

And that was M. Brown at the top of his game, in the prime of his career.

Is it a big stretch to say E. Brown has improved enough to where there won't be that big of a drop off now that he's the main back up at guard? You make it sound like there is. I think your overstating the difference between E. and M.s level of play.

 

[Skkorpion]

Zeno, one of the greatest misleaders of all time is Mike Shanahan. He makes a habit of hiding his true intentions from the media, fans and his players. Nobody gives him any grief for it.

Herm Edwards in KC does it too. So does Tom Coughlan. Bill Belichick. They all lie when it suits them. Others too.

Dan Snyder. Joe Gibbs. The Roonies. Green Bay's front office. And on and on. Denny Green. Al Davis.

Players lie to their coaches and front offices all the time.

 

[kerouac9]

But I disagree and here's why:

I saw E. Brown play for 13 games in 2005. He wasn't bad for a rook.

You most certainly did not. How do I know that? Because he only appeared in 9 games in 2005. He gave up 4.25 sacks in those 9 games. In 13 games in 2006, Milford Brown gave up 2.

In 16 games in which many view Reggie Wells as being dominated, he gave up only 2.5 sacks. But he was flagged 10 times. 5 for holding and 5 false starts.

 

[Zeno]

You most certainly did not. How do I know that? Because he only appeared in 9 games in 2005. He gave up 4.25 sacks in those 9 games. In 13 games in 2006, Milford Brown gave up 2.

In 16 games in which many view Reggie Wells as being dominated, he gave up only 2.5 sacks. But he was flagged 10 times. 5 for holding and 5 false starts.

How does a guy give up .25 of a sack? Does that mean everyone on the OL with the exception of 1 player was beaten? If so...that could only happen to a Cardinal OLine. Or does it mean that he was only responsible for a quarter of the blocking assignment on 1 player?

I'm giving myself a self imposed break from the Cardinal message board, I find I'm getting frustrated entirely too easily with this team. No reason really to argue over something that is done, no matter how wrong I think moves they make are there is nothing I can say will change it. No more bitching from me about the front office or coaches(or players for that matter) until the real season starts and I have a legitimate reason. This includes hold outs, depth charts etc.

I seriously mean it when I say I want these moves to pay off, I want this team to win this season, I'm tired of losing--its no fun. I have no doubt in my mind that the players, coaches and front office feel the same way--I just really pray they fix it soon. I just have such a jaded view of this team and a complete lack of faith in any moves they make...it just gets driven deeper in to me with every losing season that I find I can't give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Zeno, one of the greatest misleaders of all time is Mike Shanahan. He makes a habit of hiding his true intentions from the media, fans and his players. Nobody gives him any grief for it.

Herm Edwards in KC does it too. So does Tom Coughlan. Bill Belichick. They all lie when it suits them. Others too.

Dan Snyder. Joe Gibbs. The Roonies. Green Bay's front office. And on and on. Denny Green. Al Davis.

Players lie to their coaches and front offices all the time.

Skkorp you are dead on. No coach or GM lays their cards on the table before the last card is dealt. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[BigRedArk]

Zeno, one of the greatest misleaders of all time is Mike Shanahan. He makes a habit of hiding his true intentions from the media, fans and his players. Nobody gives him any grief for it.

Herm Edwards in KC does it too. So does Tom Coughlan. Bill Belichick. They all lie when it suits them. Others too.

Dan Snyder. Joe Gibbs. The Roonies. Green Bay's front office. And on and on. Denny Green. Al Davis.

Players lie to their coaches and front offices all the time.

Nobody held a gun to Whisenhunt's head and forced him to say he was gonna fit his system to the players he had inherited. Perhaps he just shouldn't have said anything about that.

While I don't like Shanahan he has a better winning record with the Broncos than any coach with the Cards so I will cut him some slack. Edwards, Coughlan, and Belichick at least get their teams to the playoffs occasionally. I will cut them some slack as well. Joe Gibbs and the Roonies have won Super Bowls (plural). Green Bay has won some Super Bowls and they have a storied history of winning and being a dominate team during the Lombardi years. Al Davis has won a few Super Bowls.

The point is that Whis hasn't done anything as a HC yet and he is taking over a team with a long losing tradition. He needs to establish credibility right from the start it would seem to me. He can fudge the truth after he gets us to the playoffs.

I hope these moves work out but right now cutting Clancy and Brown cuts into our depth and depth is something this team has been short of for a very, very long time. So Clancy only weighs 308 or whatever. He can't tackle? He can't plug the middle good enough to make this team? What if God forbid we have injuries at NT and at G? I advocate we just might be wishing that the FO and coaching staff hadn't backed themselves into a corner by having to cut decent players to make cap room. Once again, this might turn out to be Garrison Hearst redux. I hope not.

 

[Skkorpion]

BigRedArk, if I'm not mistaken, both Shanahan and Belichick had losing records as head coaches when they got their current jobs and both started lieing right away.

Would you have given them the benefit of a free pass then?

 

[D-Dogg]

How does a guy give up .25 of a sack?

No, he averaged 4.25 sacks a game during those nine games.

 

[BigRedArk]

BigRedArk, if I'm not mistaken, both Shanahan and Belichick had losing records as head coaches when they got their current jobs and both started lieing right away.

Would you have given them the benefit of a free pass then?

Probably not. What in general did they lie about? Also the Broncos and Pats had already at least been to a SB or two before either of them arrived. My point is that this troubled franchise could use a HC that stands up to what he says he is gonna do. Especially now since we have the most talent on this team than I can remember on both sides of the ball since the 60's.