Can Whiz ever "win" without Warner?

Can Whiz ever win without Kurt?


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82CardsGrad

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From consistently poor playcalling, to poor personnel decisions (i.e., like not addressing the o-line and edge rushing situations), to consistently sitting atop the league in penalties, to consistently fielding a weak team (physically and mentally) that can never close out games and continues to fold up like a cheap rented tent... I am really, really beginning to struggle with Whiz. Finding it increasingly difficult to keep the faith with him and really wondering if our Super Bowl run that seems like decades ago now, was simply a matter of Kurt Warner willing the team to heights they never would have reached otherwise...

What say you?
 

PJ1

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Really having my doubts about the guy also. Bad games happen but good coaches adjust. We are now on our third DC with him. All that said the most important thing is what is M. Bidwill thinking right now.
 

NYCARDS

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Good teams find ways to win the games we have lost and bad teams find ways to lose. I have no doubt that if KW was still here we would be 3-1 at worst. I know its time to let go but Whiz and the play of Kolb make it hard.
 

jefftheshark

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From consistently poor playcalling, to poor personnel decisions (i.e., like not addressing the o-line and edge rushing situations), to consistently sitting atop the league in penalties, to consistently fielding a weak team (physically and mentally) that can never close out games and continues to fold up like a cheap rented tent... I am really, really beginning to struggle with Whiz. Finding it increasingly difficult to keep the faith with him and really wondering if our Super Bowl run that seems like decades ago now, was simply a matter of Kurt Warner willing the team to heights they never would have reached otherwise...

What say you?

Perhaps he needs Haley as well as Warner, someone to filter out the "bad" ideas.

Or perhaps he's the anti-Denny Green, who was a great personnel guy but sucked when it came to x's and o's.

Perhaps Graves was the proverbial blind pig, who found the only acorn he's ever going to find in this lifetime four years ago when lighting struck and the Cards had their brief shining pinnacle before returning to the muck they seem to be eternally mired in. There is a very good chance that no coach can be successful when saddled with such a poor FO.

Maybe Whiz has let loyalty and friendship blind him to the possibility that his assistant head coach Grimm was a great player, but awful coach.

Perhaps we as fans are over-reacting to a team that was competitive in all four of its games this year, but has a record worse than last year when we truly, truly sucked so bad that the games became basically unwatchable. This year at least the games are exciting, if only in that "Oh my God! Can this really be happening!" kind-of-way.

Nah - that last one couldn't be it. :D

What we need is a fresh start - a complete and total re-boot.

We need for Michael Bidwill to put everyone including his dad out to pasture. Bring in a whole new FO and let them hire their new staff. Cut all the bloat (yes Levi, we're looking at you) say good-bye to guys who were great in the past, but aren't quite pulling their weight anymore (Sorry Adrian - this is going to hurt us both). No matter what we paid for Kolb we take the hit and get Luck - whatever it takes. We then build around him and Larry on the O and around DD, PP and CC on the D. It's just like in Animal House - "Something stupid needs to be done, and we're just the guys who need to do it!" Except it isn't "us" it's him.

And he needs to do it now, if only to show he cares. But I'm not holding my breath.

So instead, as fans, we're kinda in limbo - just like the team. I'll still bleed red, but I'm no longer going to live or die based upon what they do an Sunday. I'm sorry, but I just can't care for a team more than what I think the Owner does.

After the game yesterday I went outside and put up the rest of the Halloween decorations that I'd abandoned when the game began. My wife asked me if the Cards had won, because from the look on my face she couldn't tell. I said that "no, they'd ripped my heart out once again - but you wouldn't believe how they did it." She replied by saying - "Oh like you have any heart left."

She's could be right. I hope not - but... :)

JTS
 

WildBB

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Good write up Jeff.

I find myself curiously not as engaged this season. I opted out and glad I did. Was not buying the cool aid after seeing so many shown the door when they could have prevented some from doing so with earlier interventions.

Too many times they try to replace established players with unproven ones or too over the hill guys.

Luckily they were right once with Warner and Berry, but that's the exception.

Too many Boldin's, Dansby's, A. Smith's., T. Hightower's, ect., shown the exit. I"m sure Fitz would have now been happier to make just a little less, if some of his former team mates were still around and the team was much better.
 

chickenhead

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Vermeil and Martz were able to win with Warner; Coughlin and Green weren't. Whiz went to a SB with him; Coughlin won one without him. Who knows? But I will say that Warner's timing, quick release, and accuracy mitigated some of the problems with the O-line. There's just no doubt about that. If Whiz can't improve the O-line, then no, maybe he can't win without a QB who can overcome it.
 

conraddobler

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From consistently poor playcalling, to poor personnel decisions (i.e., like not addressing the o-line and edge rushing situations), to consistently sitting atop the league in penalties, to consistently fielding a weak team (physically and mentally) that can never close out games and continues to fold up like a cheap rented tent... I am really, really beginning to struggle with Whiz. Finding it increasingly difficult to keep the faith with him and really wondering if our Super Bowl run that seems like decades ago now, was simply a matter of Kurt Warner willing the team to heights they never would have reached otherwise...

What say you?

It's not JUST him.

This organization is dysfunctional.

Michael drug it out of the stone age into what looks to be the modern age but until you see a qualfied NFL GM with the keys to the operation you will never see more than brief accidental glimpses of glory.

The shame is they've done everything else, they've tried everything but that, the last person they gave the keys to was Buddy Ryan and his clan, they got so desperate they gave the WRONG GUY a blank check.

You don't have to write a blank check, all you have to do is convince a GM that what you have to work with is enough he or she can build a champion with and given we operate under a salary cap and given the new revenues available and given how small our operation is that looks to be a no brainer.

No one in the family should have any position on the team at all ever, for any reason at all.

True owners just go to the games and enjoy them, you should have two duties, hiring the right GM and firing the wrong one, of course you're free to run the team if you want, and you're free to suck too.
 
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kerouac9

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If the system requires a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Kurt Warner/Aaron Rodgers to be successful, it's a bad system. Kolb is no more or less talented than Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Eli Manning, maybe Tony Romo. That being the case, we should have the expectation for that kind of production from the quarterback position.

The biggest concern is that Kolb is getting worse and worse every week. That's what happened with Skelton, Anderson, and Hall last year. If that continues to be the case, there's only one constant there, and it's the coaching staff.
 

LoyaltyisaCurse

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If the system requires a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Kurt Warner/Aaron Rodgers to be successful, it's a bad system. Kolb is no more or less talented than Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Eli Manning, maybe Tony Romo. That being the case, we should have the expectation for that kind of production from the quarterback position.

The biggest concern is that Kolb is getting worse and worse every week. That's what happened with Skelton, Anderson, and Hall last year. If that continues to be the case, there's only one constant there, and it's the coaching staff.
I totally agree with all the above points...
 

fball13

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I couldn't answer this poll, because its missing one option:

Yes, because we're in the NFC West.

I honestly think he can win cuz the west sucks...
 

Cheesebeef

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My wife asked me if the Cards had won, because from the look on my face she couldn't tell. I said that "no, they'd ripped my heart out once again - but you wouldn't believe how they did it." She replied by saying - "Oh like you have any heart left."

JTS

that's a hilarious response. your wife rocks.
 

conraddobler

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If the system requires a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Kurt Warner/Aaron Rodgers to be successful, it's a bad system. Kolb is no more or less talented than Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Eli Manning, maybe Tony Romo. That being the case, we should have the expectation for that kind of production from the quarterback position.

The biggest concern is that Kolb is getting worse and worse every week. That's what happened with Skelton, Anderson, and Hall last year. If that continues to be the case, there's only one constant there, and it's the coaching staff.

These are the last 10 SB winners in order from latest to longest time ago.

Rogers
Brees
Eli
Peyton
Big Ben
Brady
Brady
Brad Johnson
Brady

Kolb is not as talented as anyone on that list IMO and even if he was as talented as Eli which I dispute, only 20% of the list, "Eli and Brad Johnson" falls into your category.

So I question the validity of your assumptions.

I'm not saying you couldn't build a system that could win, but if you are going to do this I suggest we are woefully inadequate on defense to get this done with Kolb.

The reason people go with the insanely talented QB is because it's actually easier and it works.

I think that list makes it pretty clear that it takes a certain caliber QB to make this work on average, so the first order of business is to get one, and I'm not saying it's easy I'm just saying it's easier to do that than it is to build an uber team around a mediocre QB.

Now if you have the Ravens defense you could make it work but Flaco still hasn't gotten his Dilfer ring yet and is not likely to IMO.
 

Dayman

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If the system requires a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/Kurt Warner/Aaron Rodgers to be successful, it's a bad system. Kolb is no more or less talented than Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Eli Manning, maybe Tony Romo. That being the case, we should have the expectation for that kind of production from the quarterback position.

The biggest concern is that Kolb is getting worse and worse every week. That's what happened with Skelton, Anderson, and Hall last year. If that continues to be the case, there's only one constant there, and it's the coaching staff.
Excellent post. I've wondered the same thing about the system lately. Of course, Hall, Skelton, DA and Leinart aren't exactly stalwarts of the QB community, but all of them seemed to struggle excessively in the base offense.

I've also wondered if this staff has the patience required to develop an inexperienced QB. How they deal with Kolb will go a long way in clearing that up. If Whis decides to go with a Kolb/Bartel platoon or something equally as wacky, my fears will be confirmed.
 

Duckjake

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Excellent post. I've wondered the same thing about the system lately. Of course, Hall, Skelton, DA and Leinart aren't exactly stalwarts of the QB community, but all of them seemed to struggle excessively in the base offense.

I've also wondered if this staff has the patience required to develop an inexperienced QB. How they deal with Kolb will go a long way in clearing that up. If Whis decides to go with a Kolb/Bartel platoon or something equally as wacky, my fears will be confirmed.

OMG if Whiz sees this he'll start Bartel and bring in Kolb to run the no huddle!!!
 

kerouac9

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These are the last 10 SB winners in order from latest to longest time ago.

Rogers
Brees
Eli
Peyton
Big Ben
Brady
Brady
Brad Johnson
Brady

Kolb is not as talented as anyone on that list IMO and even if he was as talented as Eli which I dispute, only 20% of the list, "Eli and Brad Johnson" falls into your category.

So I question the validity of your assumptions.

I'm not saying you couldn't build a system that could win, but if you are going to do this I suggest we are woefully inadequate on defense to get this done with Kolb.

The reason people go with the insanely talented QB is because it's actually easier and it works.

I think that list makes it pretty clear that it takes a certain caliber QB to make this work on average, so the first order of business is to get one, and I'm not saying it's easy I'm just saying it's easier to do that than it is to build an uber team around a mediocre QB.

Now if you have the Ravens defense you could make it work but Flaco still hasn't gotten his Dilfer ring yet and is not likely to IMO.

Well, that's all fine and good if your only criterion for success is a Super Bowl championship. That's a hell of a way to run a railroad. The ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl, but I would rather build a team like the late 90s Tampa Bay Bucs that goes to the playoffs almost every single year.

If you make the tournament, then you have a chance to win it. You can make the tournament with a whole lot of different kinds of QBs (as your next list that you won't make will attest), and then you have some luck involved. I think that Kolb is talented enough to make the tournament if we treat him right and protect him with a good defense and a complementary system, neither of which we have yet.

By your measure the Pats have been as unsuccessful a franchise as the Buffalo Bills and St. Louis Rams the last six years, and clearly you don't believe that.

The alternative is to churn through QBs every two or three years in the hope that you hit on the magic guy that you're going to win a Super Bowl with for one year(!). That's not a way to win.

The Pats became a dynasty not because Brady was lighting up the stats sheet like a pinball machine, but because they built a complete veteran team starting with the lines and the running game that was then supported by a very good quarterback who could win games for you.

Once Brady became a fantasy preview cover boy, he stopped winning championships and started losing to Mark Sanchez. Maybe there's no causation there, but it's interesting nonetheless.
 
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