Can we blame Vogel?

Cheesebeef

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It's absolutely absurd to consider bringing back Vogel. A coach has 2 jobs:

Motivate players - absolute failure

Give strategic advantage - our D was terrible, and our offense was impotent and had no continuity in spite of two all NBA players and another former all star

WHY WOULD HE GET ANOTHER CHANCE?
Because we have a front office that can’t admit the makeup of last year’s team from a player or coaching standpoint was as big of a mistake as possible.

That sucks. But not completely surprising, especially after that nauseating post-season presser.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Because we have a front office that can’t admit the makeup of last year’s team from a player or coaching standpoint was as big of a mistake as possible.

That sucks. But not completely surprising, especially after that nauseating post-season presser.
How anyone in the decision making group could look at the season last year and think "let's run it back" is just mind blowing. It was an awful season, and we were never close to contending. We barely made the playoffs, and were swept in embarrassing fashion. Now KD/Beal are another year older, and we're going to be dependent again on guys like Nurk to maintain good health. So depressing.
 

BirdGangThing

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nope - we're not going to blame the head coach but we are going to whack his entire staff - you know - because that's perfectly normal - like when a restaurant massively underperforms and you see all the cooks waiting staff and dishwashers get canned but the manager stays - happens all the time
 

AzStevenCal

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I think the problem is that if they'd fired Vogel they'd be up a creek when next season ends similarly to this one.
 

Covert Rain

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On the radio they said if they fire Vogel they still owe him 24 million. Maybe that is a huge factor. That can't be right can it? He signed a 5 year 31 million dollar deal. It was guaranteed?!?!!? I guess I don't remember that or the national guy is wrong.
 

JerkFace

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On the radio they said if they fire Vogel they still owe him 24 million. Maybe that is a huge factor. That can't be right can it? He signed a 5 year 31 million dollar deal. It was guaranteed?!?!!? I guess I don't remember that or the national guy is wrong.
Pretty sure all coaches contracts are guaranteed.
 

Covert Rain

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Pretty sure all coaches contracts are guaranteed.
Most I guess are but I just don't remember reading anything on it. Either way, that's a ton of cake to pay a coach if you fire him. Maybe that is a factor. Probably wouldn't be a factor normally but with our salary cap maybe.
 

ASUCHRIS

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I think the problem is that if they'd fired Vogel they'd be up a creek when next season ends similarly to this one.
Well if you keep Vogel, then you're pretty much guaranteed to have the same result. At least if you shuffle around some of the pieces and get in a different voice, you're more likely to get a different result.

His screams at the end of the year were met by the same collective indifference of the entire season. They don't respect him.
 

AzStevenCal

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if things had gotten better from start to finish i could see making a case for vogel but that was not the case - not substantially at least
I can't make a case for Vogel but I can make a case for not firing him. That being, if you don't believe this roster will challenge for the title regardless of who is coaching it, why bother making the change now? I'd wait until I have a clear path to rebuild, maybe starting as soon as 2025/26 season. Not that I believe the front office is actually thinking the same way, they seem to be in denial about the roster.
 

Proteus

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On the radio they said if they fire Vogel they still owe him 24 million. Maybe that is a huge factor. That can't be right can it? He signed a 5 year 31 million dollar deal. It was guaranteed?!?!!? I guess I don't remember that or the national guy is wrong.
Ishbia's got the money to eat that contract. :shrug:
 

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Ishbia's got the money to eat that contract. :shrug:

People keep saying stuff like this and how he'll spare no expense yet it seems he has cut corners when available. Not firing Vogel because of his contract is a problem. If he's not the guy but you don't want to be paying a third coach so you hope he can turn it around and become the guy then this is doomed. Last year there were cost cutting moves as well, Cam Payne's salary dump and not re-signing our free agents with bird rights like Torrey Craig. Ishbia isn't Sarver but he also isn't going to spend just because he can. Money isn't buying our way out of this mess. The CBA made sure that isn't possible.
 

clyde2tw

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Vogel says the fine words and his plan to play with the big-3 apparently met mgt's inept vision. Toppin went for 2 2nd-rounders who has about same salary of Payne but would be the ideal running mate for KD; not to mention Oubre and DJones for min, and Bitadzi or Theis later. These players are way better than Suns' offseason acquisitions except for Allen and Nurk. The tone then was big-3 would so dominate the offense that the role players were kinda insignificant. But the big-3 offense has never really worked, and more so in playoffs. The clear new trend in the NBA is to play physical, and play defense. For that the only way to still have chance to contend with big-3 is, first to reduce their min to avoid fatique associated with playing hard and facing constant physical game all their court time, second to play a lot athletic and physical players of our team that are currently Okogie, Little, Roddy, Saben until further transactions. Does Vogel know how to do that? If he had a reputation of developing young players and be a defensive minded coach, then him staying as HC might be justified. Is he? Wait, he had the latter but our D sucked whole season.
 

taz02

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What quality coach is going to want to coach this team as hamstrung as it is. There likely isn't a better option than Vogel at this point. They have no viable options other than running it back next year.

They need to spend next season developing a plan for the future. Starting with revamping our scouting and player development.

If next season ends like the last one. You find a new coach and GM, who are on the same page and willing to build a new team from scratch, Trade everyone you can for picks and young talent.
 

Chaplin

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What quality coach is going to want to coach this team as hamstrung as it is. There likely isn't a better option than Vogel at this point. They have no viable options other than running it back next year.

They need to spend next season developing a plan for the future. Starting with revamping our scouting and player development.

If next season ends like the last one. You find a new coach and GM, who are on the same page and willing to build a new team from scratch, Trade everyone you can for picks and young talent.
Money talks. I'm not too worried about new coaching hires not wanting to come to Phoenix.
 

taz02

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I'm sure we can find and afford a new coach. Landing top talent is more difficult.

At the end of the day we have a team of often injured old players, that includes the leagues top coach killer in KD, trades are restricted by contracts, and the cap, and we don't control our own draft picks.

IMO, our chances of landing the right coach/GM improve if we are offering them obscene contracts, the ability to build a team from the ground up, as they see fit, backed by an owner willing to spend what ever it takes.

Ownership clearly isn't ready for a complete re-build, but they will be if next season ends badly.
 

Covert Rain

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Money talks. I'm not too worried about new coaching hires not wanting to come to Phoenix.
Mostly agree with this. Sarver was notorious for skimping on coaching salary sometimes (especially assistants). We shouldn't have that problem with Ishbia.

By the way, there might be something to not hearing about Vogel according to the morning guys that might be tied to Durant. They are saying it's highly unusual to leave your coach twisting in the wind. Their logic goes that if Durant really wants out, there is likely no reason to fire Vogel now. If Durant wants to stay and he is unhappy (possibly other players too) then it would make much more sense to move on from Vogel. I guess if you are waiting to see if KD is intent on staying before making a decision the delay could make sense.

It all appears to be speculation but I see some logic behind it.
 

Chaplin

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Mostly agree with this. Sarver was notorious for skimping on coaching salary sometimes (especially assistants). We shouldn't have that problem with Ishbia.

By the way, there might be something to not hearing about Vogel according to the morning guys that might be tied to Durant. They are saying it's highly unusual to leave your coach twisting in the wind. Their logic goes that if Durant really wants out, there is likely no reason to fire Vogel now. If Durant wants to stay and he is unhappy (possibly other players too) then it would make much more sense to move on from Vogel. I guess if you are waiting to see if KD is intent on staying before making a decision the delay could make sense.

It all appears to be speculation but I see some logic behind it.
And if a decision has been made to keep Vogel, then that decision would certainly have gotten buy-in from the big 3.
 

Hoop Head

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If KD demands a trade then everyone involved in acquiring him should be fired and black balled from the Suns organization. It's already one of the worst trades in franchise history but it'll be the undisputed worst if he demands out a year and a half later.
 

ASUCHRIS

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People keep saying stuff like this and how he'll spare no expense yet it seems he has cut corners when available. Not firing Vogel because of his contract is a problem. If he's not the guy but you don't want to be paying a third coach so you hope he can turn it around and become the guy then this is doomed. Last year there were cost cutting moves as well, Cam Payne's salary dump and not re-signing our free agents with bird rights like Torrey Craig. Ishbia isn't Sarver but he also isn't going to spend just because he can. Money isn't buying our way out of this mess. The CBA made sure that isn't possible.
Payne and Craig would have gotten big minutes on this team, and deservedly so.
 

Raindog

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If KD demands a trade then everyone involved in acquiring him should be fired and black balled from the Suns organization. It's already one of the worst trades in franchise history but it'll be the undisputed worst if he demands out a year and a half later.
You can't fire the owner, of course. But I'd be all for firing Jones... out of a cannon so he landed outside Phoenix city limits.
 

BirdGangThing

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ive compiled a list of all available and possible college and nba head coaches/assistants that would NOT want to coach the big 3:
 

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