Can we blame Vogel?

Yuma

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You guys see that report Vogel went on a podcast and said he asked the Suns for a PG, and was "flatly refused."
 

Covert Rain

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It's not all Vogel's fault. If James Jones denied his roster requests that's on James Jones. A coach typically knows the types of players he needs for his system. If James overrode that it's on him. However, it doesn't excuse Frank's offensive system and lack of adjustments. It doesn't excuse his weird rotation decisions. He at least had a say in his assistants.

Vogel owns a big part of this mess.
 

95pro

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Imo sounds like they bent over backwards for KD, so he can hoop (iso and do what he does).
 

AzStevenCal

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It's not all Vogel's fault. If James Jones denied his roster requests that's on James Jones. A coach typically knows the types of players he needs for his system. If James overrode that it's on him. However, it doesn't excuse Frank's offensive system and lack of adjustments. It doesn't excuse his weird rotation decisions. He at least had a say in his assistants.

Vogel owns a big part of this mess.
Durant appears to be uncoachable. Vogel made it clear that he was looking forward to coaching DA and apparently pushed hard for a PG that never materialized in addition to having been talked into keeping Kevin Young as his top assistant. I am unimpressed by Frank's coaching this season but I just don't know what you can expect from a Head Coach who is so hamstrung by managerial decisions.

I won't be saddened if they send Vogel packing, I just have zero confidence that it will make any real difference for us. Not that it will happen but at this point, I'd part ways with just about everyone involved with this team and look to hire coaches that are known for working well with young teams.
 

Covert Rain

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Durant appears to be uncoachable. Vogel made it clear that he was looking forward to coaching DA and apparently pushed hard for a PG that never materialized in addition to having been talked into keeping Kevin Young as his top assistant. I am unimpressed by Frank's coaching this season but I just don't know what you can expect from a Head Coach who is so hamstrung by managerial decisions.

I won't be saddened if they send Vogel packing, I just have zero confidence that it will make any real difference for us. Not that it will happen but at this point, I'd part ways with just about everyone involved with this team and look to hire coaches that are known for working well with young teams.
That's why I said it wasn't all on Vogel but his decision making was front and center and highly suspect throughout the season. That's the part I can't get over with him. He also sucks at adjustments.
 

ASUCHRIS

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I can't imagine in any universe where Frank has earned a second year here, even with the flawed roster. He clearly didn't get through to anyone in terms of getting effort out of the team, and his schemes/rotations were terrible.

What exactly did he do well?
 

95pro

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It is really tough to say if its the chicken or the egg, Vogel or KD.

One KD, impossible to coach. Plays how he wants to play, or "hoop", as he says.

Other hand, Vogel went out the way to disregard Young's schemes to play iso. There were some games where Vogel was calling for iso plays, you could see and hear this on the TV. I think KD got what he wanted but still pouted behind the scenes to throw Vogel under the bus.

But even then with all the coaches; Vogel, take that for data, and Young...there were just simply no adjustments made. We were reactive all year instead of proactive. One glaring example is when the Wolves threw McD at Booker, uhh hello, didn't they think about this?
 

Mainstreet

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It is really tough to say if its the chicken or the egg, Vogel or KD.

One KD, impossible to coach. Plays how he wants to play, or "hoop", as he says.

Other hand, Vogel went out the way to disregard Young's schemes to play iso. There were some games where Vogel was calling for iso plays, you could see and hear this on the TV. I think KD got what he wanted but still pouted behind the scenes to throw Vogel under the bus.

But even then with all the coaches; Vogel, take that for data, and Young...there were just simply no adjustments made. We were reactive all year instead of proactive. One glaring example is when the Wolves threw McD at Booker, uhh hello, didn't they think about this?

An interim head coach should have been put in place mid-season and the Suns would now have a better idea of what needs changing.
 

AzStevenCal

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I can't imagine in any universe where Frank has earned a second year here, even with the flawed roster. He clearly didn't get through to anyone in terms of getting effort out of the team, and his schemes/rotations were terrible.

What exactly did he do well?
I don't know if he did anything well, anything right? I didn't like much about this team but I especially disliked seeing players stapled to the end of the bench for weeks at a time for no apparent reason. But we didn't give Vogel a fair shot. Hopefully Ish and whoever is our GM will learn from this and won't make the same mistake with the next hire. Hire the right guy and give him what he asks for (within reason).
 

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ishbia delayed a press conference till tomorrow when an announcement is expected - all while there's a lot of people saying vogel isn't the problem - so who knows but i for one hope he goes - our team was neither confident nor happy with what were doing
 

clyde2tw

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Vogel can only coach and play the game in certain ways, his excuse is the roster was constructed so that this was all he could produce. But the Suns are limited in potential roster moves, so we need a coach that has vision and is willing to adapt game plan to make better use of the roster, like properly developing bench confidence and make in-game adjustment to bench underperforming players. So, unless they want to blow it up by trading at least one of the big-3, the next season is lost upon Vogel staying. And even then we might not get the proper players in exchange to have any hope of success under him. So, he must go. And then we also need talk about JJ's inability to find proper complementary pieces that not just look good on paper, like KBD and Watanabe. And the marginal part of Ayton trade of sending away Camara was also perplexing, as who showed signs of being the right type of PF next to KD, and definitely better defender than Metu, KBD, Bol, or even Young and RO. And we gave Goodwin too many chances but none to Saben.
 

AzStevenCal

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ishbia delayed a press conference till tomorrow when an announcement is expected - all while there's a lot of people saying vogel isn't the problem - so who knows but i for one hope he goes - our team was neither confident nor happy with what were doing
I think most of us are saying Vogel isn't THE problem, not that he necessarily isn't a problem. The front office done him wrong but that doesn't mean he didn't fail to do his job.
 

nashman

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Vogel is a huge problem doesn’t do anything well! Terrible game manager, doesn’t even use the bench, weird rotations, can’t seem to adjust to things happening right in front of his face! Killed our starters by not getting a bench rotation together. To many guys got zero chances! I don’t buy he wanted a PG blah blah, they signed one and you didn’t even try to play him lol total BS. Frank sucks and should be shown the door 100%, the guys don’t play or believe in him that’s all that needs to be said! How many guys have you heard sticking up for him voluntarily??? Zero! And the effort showed as much in many many games!
 

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Haven't seen anything confirming this, but another board is saying that our favorite pundit Flex from Jersey is saying Frank Vogel IS REMAINING AS COACH IN 2024-2025.

Colossally stupid move.
 

Covert Rain

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Haven't seen anything confirming this, but another board is saying that our favorite pundit Flex from Jersey is saying Frank Vogel IS REMAINING AS COACH IN 2024-2025.

Colossally stupid move.
The local radio guys have been saying for days that they are hearing the longer this goes on, the more likely Vogel is staying. I will wait to hear what Gambo says. He has debunked so much Flex garbage that last couple seasons I just don't pay attention to him any longer.
 

ASUCHRIS

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It's absolutely absurd to consider bringing back Vogel. A coach has 2 jobs:

Motivate players - absolute failure

Give strategic advantage - our D was terrible, and our offense was impotent and had no continuity in spite of two all NBA players and another former all star

WHY WOULD HE GET ANOTHER CHANCE?
 

Raindog

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Haven't seen anything confirming this, but another board is saying that our favorite pundit Flex from Jersey is saying Frank Vogel IS REMAINING AS COACH IN 2024-2025.

Colossally stupid move.
All the signs do seem to be pointing in this direction... sigh.
idk if i can handle another year of vogel
The Suns are seriously going to lose fan interest over this rinse and repeat approach next year. And worse, Ishbia is going to draw a lot of derision and hostility from the media and fans when it likely fails even worse next season.
 

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I think it would have been announced by now if he was out. I don’t get it.
 

Covert Rain

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All I can hang my hat on is there still must be a chance of letting him go or the Suns would simply announce “he is our guy’ killing any speculation.
 
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