Big misconception in the "injury waiver" argument

[Ed B]

The people who, for some godforsaken reason, defend Bidwill and the team on their injury waiver stance keep using "Why should the team risk ______ million dollars on a guy who hasn't proven anything and won't be able to play if he gets hurt?" or some variation of that argument. I've seen it on here 1000 times.

That's total bull$hit. The team risks nothing. If a player was given a standard injury waiver (like the one every other team uses, not the Cards' kind) and proceeded to blow his knee out or get paralyzed, the <b>Cards</b> wouldn't have to pay him crap. Their <b>insurer</b> would.

If you or I get injured at work, any money we would get from a lawsuit/settlement/workers' comp would come not from our employer's pocket but from their liability carrier.

From what little I've read or been able to find on the internet (and it's not much, so I may be wrong......anyone who has more facts please jump in) every NFL team has insurance out the butthole to protect against players who might bring action against them for being hurt in the team facility, accusing the medical staff of poor treatment, etc etc etc.

So it's not exactly honest to talk like if Calvin Pace received a regular slotted injury waiver and then blew his knee out, Bill Bidwill would have to sit down and write him a check for $5,000,000.

 

[az643dp]

Rod Graves does a good job at clarifying the Cards stance on this waiver in his interview with Jurecki and Lewis. You can hear it for yourself. After hearing it explained, I think that both sides need to make concessions and get it done. Graves mentioned that he doesn't want the players and agents dictating what the team does. Still, both players and the Cardinals need to look at themselves and realize that this is not helping any of the parties involved. Get it done!

The Graves comments are at 03:13:03 of thie interview. Go to this link:

http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1173817&segment=104233

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by az643dp
Rod Graves does a good job at clarifying the Cards stance on this waiver in his interview with Jurecki and Lewis. You can hear it for yourself. After hearing it explained, I think that both sides need to make concessions and get it done. Graves mentioned that he doesn't want the players and agents dictating what the team does. Still, both players and the Cardinals need to look at themselves and realize that this is not helping any of the parties involved. Get it done!

The Graves comments are at 03:13:03 of thie interview. Go to this link:

http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1173817&segment=104233

I wasn't making a commentary on the players' position here, I was just trying to correct a factual inaccuracy I keep seeing on the board.

Bidwill would pay nothing. Nothing except the insurance premium that the team <b>already pays</b>.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by Ed B
I wasn't making a commentary on the players' position here, I was just trying to correct a factual inaccuracy I keep seeing on the board.

Bidwill would pay nothing. Nothing except the insurance premium that the team <b>already pays</b>.

Yeah...I hear you Ed. I was just trying to let people hear Graves explain it in his own words as opposed to reading fractions of quotes from the Republic and Tribune. It is interesting to hear the details.

With that being said, I believe that BOTH sides need to make a few concessions and it would work itself out.

 

[Dakota Red]

This is so silly. They were drafted and whether they they get hurt during the season or at voluntary workouts the team is and should be obligated to pay them according to their draft status. The fact they haven't proved they deserve the money is moot.

Until the they change to a slotted pay system for they draft, the teams should be on the hook for what they current market dictates.

What this really is an indicator of is that this team hasn't learned anything from last year and oncec again are showing the true colors of the owners backasswards operating philosophies. You drafted them now step up to they plate and take care of them!!!

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Dakota Red
The fact they haven't proved they deserve the money is moot.

Isn't that silly? I mean if they signed their full contracts tomorrow and got their bonus check, would they have "earned" anything???

And you can make an argument that some guys (T Jones) never earn it!

 

[Shane]

First off Ed I highly doubt that if a guy blows his knee insurance is going to pay his salary! So your argument is moot. Insurance may pay for the medical and all the rehab etc...... But as far as this guys salary as he sits is still payed by the Cards so I dont really see where you are going with this issue???

Secondly Why and the heck did you feel the need to start a whole new thread on the same issue we already have going over here: http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9859

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Shane H
First off Ed I highly doubt that if a guy blows his knee insurance is going to pay his salary! So your argument is moot. Insurance may pay for the medical and all the rehab etc...... But as far as this guys salary as he sits is still payed by the Cards so I dont really see where you are going with this issue???

Insurance wouldn't pay him a salary, and neither does a slotted waiver! A slotted waiver guarantees a player an lump sum commensurate with his draft position, not a salary.

And before you dismiss my argument with a simple "I highly doubt", look into the issue a little bit. From what information I've found, the liability would cover all of it. With all due respect to your intuition and assumptions, I don't think you're correct here.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Ed B
Insurance wouldn't pay him a salary, and neither does a slotted waiver! A slotted waiver guarantees a player an lump sum commensurate with his draft position, not a salary.

And before you dismiss my argument with a simple "I highly doubt", look into the issue a little bit. From what information I've found, the liability would cover all of it. With all due respect to your intuition and assumptions, I don't think you're correct here.

Correct me if Im wrong but all a slotted waiver does is guarantee the guys "salary" commensurate to his draft position if he soccoms to an injury right?

Well just because someone gets hurt doesnt mean they get it all paid in one lump sum the team gets the guy proper medical care and rehabs the guy and continues to pay his salary until at which time he is healthy to play again!

If he is unable to play again an injury settlement is reached anyways and the guy is paid a settlement. Even veterans under contract right???

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Shane H
Correct me if Im wrong but all a slotted waiver does is guarantee the guys "salary" commensurate to his draft position if he soccoms to an injury right?

Well just because someone gets hurt doesnt mean they get it all paid in one lump sum the team gets the guy proper medical care and rehabs the guy and continues to pay his salary until at which time he is healthy to play again!

If he is unable to play again an injury settlement is reached anyways and the guy is paid a settlement. Even veterans under contract right???

The difference is that a rookie like Pace, for example, has no contract so he has no salary.

The waiver, as is my understanding, guarantees him a lump sum payment in the event that an injury prevents him from signing a contract. Sort of like "Well, if you hadn't got hurt, we would have signed you to a contract for X, but now you're hurt and we don't want to pay you, so here's $3 million (an approximation of the signing bonus he would have gotten), bye bye".

A veteran is different, because a veteran already has a salary determined by his contract.

 

[Dakota Red]

That's why the NFL draft is the "biggest crap shoot in sports."... Jim Rome. Don't really like the guy but he's correct there. Do they deserve that much money fresh from the blocks? NO WAY!But that is how it is for now.

Roll those dice baby!

 

[Ed B]

I agree with Dakota again.

Saying "well rookies make too much and haven't proven anything so we're not going to give them a waiver" is like saying that government workers make too much money so I'm going to stop paying my taxes.

It's absolutely impossible to try to change the system that way, and it's only going to get the team in trouble in the long run in the sense that players around the league will continue to have a somewhat negative general perception about the Cardinals way of doing business.

 

[Duckjake]

Shane,

Work Comp does pay a % your salary for a limited period of time and in some states will also pay a lump sum settlement based on the type of injury.

Disability income policies also pay a % of salary for anywhere from 6 months to age 65.

The Football players/teams purchase a policy, usually from LLoyds of London, that has a specific benefit in case a specific event occurs which keeps a player from getting an NFL contract. They are just like those accident policies that pay you $5000 if you cut off your thumb and one finger. The amount paid is negotiated in advance.

Note that every state Workers Comp law has provisions specifically relating to Professional Athletes. We won't get into what happens when you play on the company softball team.

Liability insurance only pays if the person insured is legally obligated. Workers Comp laws will not allow an employee to win a lawsuit against their employer. So a player who is under contract gets his WC benefits plus whatever disability policy they may have purchased.

On the other hand an unsigned rookie may not be considered an employee and would be able to sue the Cardinals for unlimited damages unless they signed a liability waiver.

So the solution would be for the player or the team to purchase the disability policy and the player signs the waiver. I don't sell these but I think the cost is fairly high for top players, so the fight may be over who pays the premium.

This is probably more than you guys wanted to know right?

 

[KingofCards]

The policies on players aren't cheap. The risk is very great for the Insurers and premiums have to be high to account for the risk.
I am not sure that an insurance company is what takes care of the waivers.

It is an agreement between the team and the unsigned rookie that if they get hurt when they are unsigned they will get paid a certain amount. I think this would be paid by the team not an insurance company. I am not cetain though.

 

[JeffGollin]

Rod Graves does a good job at clarifying the Cards stance on this waiver...Graves mentioned that he doesn't want the players and agents dictating what the team does.
I heard the interview.

Graves also said that the team presented a generally stated verbal policy to each player that, should there be an injury, the team "would continue to negotiate" with the player toward compensation commensurate to where the player would logically be slotted.

He further went on to say that it woukdn't make sense for the Cardinals to ever renege on this form of informal commitment, because it would adversely affect the team for years.

But the problem is - a player and an agent hears this kind of "trust us" argument whereby Marcus Robinson is told to wait til after the draft for negotiations to ("trust us") continue, and then "unusual circumstances" (i.e. we signed a bleep-load of wideouts, surprise ! surprise!) precludes further serious negotiations.

No one likes to get very specific about it, but the Cardinals have a (real or perceived) credibility problem around the league and "trust us" just won't cut it with some players and agents.

You get the feeling the Cardinals don't care; but it's hurting the team and its ability to field a winning team each year.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Duckjake
Shane,

Work Comp does pay a % your salary for a limited period of time and in some states will also pay a lump sum settlement based on the type of injury.

Disability income policies also pay a % of salary for anywhere from 6 months to age 65.

The Football players/teams purchase a policy, usually from LLoyds of London, that has a specific benefit in case a specific event occurs which keeps a player from getting an NFL contract. They are just like those accident policies that pay you $5000 if you cut off your thumb and one finger. The amount paid is negotiated in advance.

Note that every state Workers Comp law has provisions specifically relating to Professional Athletes. We won't get into what happens when you play on the company softball team.

Liability insurance only pays if the person insured is legally obligated. Workers Comp laws will not allow an employee to win a lawsuit against their employer. So a player who is under contract gets his WC benefits plus whatever disability policy they may have purchased.

On the other hand an unsigned rookie may not be considered an employee and would be able to sue the Cardinals for unlimited damages unless they signed a liability waiver.

So the solution would be for the player or the team to purchase the disability policy and the player signs the waiver. I don't sell these but I think the cost is fairly high for top players, so the fight may be over who pays the premium.

This is probably more than you guys wanted to know right?

Exactly!

If a player is serious all he needs to do it get some insurance. Heck Willis Mcgahee purchased a policy in college that was to pay 2.5 million and it cost him a mere 20,000 which while expensive is not out of the realm of possability for someone to come up with especially if they know they are going to have millions in about 3 months anyways!

Word in the papre was that Mcgahee was from a poor family and they wondered how they came up with the dough? Hmmm?

 

[CardinalChris]

Originally posted by az643dp
Graves mentioned that he doesn't want the players and agents dictating what the team doeshttp://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1173817&segment=104233

Sounds like a grudge match / power trip. Not the way to do this, IMO.

 

[Lars the Red]

Originally posted by Shane H
Exactly!

If a player is serious all he needs to do it get some insurance. Heck Willis Mcgahee purchased a policy in college that was to pay 2.5 million and it cost him a mere 20,000 which while expensive is not out of the realm of possability for someone to come up with especially if they know they are going to have millions in about 3 months anyways!

Word in the papre was that Mcgahee was from a poor family and they wondered how they came up with the dough? Hmmm?

Why do I need to go to the expense of protecting myself when the team has made a financial commitment to me (drafting me), is negotiating a limited term financial commitment (contract), and what is to likely be the largest single financial reward for my years of preparation (signing bonus),then tells me to risk all of these numbers to participate in their 'voluntary workout'? My response would be the same as the player's, 'No thanks, I'll sit this out'. What kind of goof would really believe the team would step up and pay everything they would have if the guy had been healthy? What absurd notion would make you believe that even buying a policy for say $5 million would completely reimburse you for the income you could receive as a player in the league for several years?

The whole thing is moronic and, as much as I've enjoyed the times I've spoken to Michael Bidwill, he needs to get his head out of his ass and do the intelligent thing on this. No one around the league see's this kind of thing as some 'badge of honor' the the ownership seems to think it is. 'We don't care what the rest of the world does, we're the Cardinals damn it and we know how to do business a little better!' Hello, earth to ownership, you need a reality check. Lead by example. Don't ask more of others than you are willing to do yourselves. Guys will give it up for you on the field and off it, if you will go the extra mile and do the little things that make people feel the commitment is real.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Why Should They Want A Waiver?

Whittle Breaks Leg in Bucs Practice

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -- Tampa Bay Buccaneers guard Jason Whittle broke his right leg during minicamp Friday and will be in a cast for about a month.

"It was a freak accident, really," coach Jon Gruden said. "He didn't get stepped on. He just turned and stumbled awkwardly as he was running. It was one of those freak plays."

Whittle signed a five-year, $8.2 million contract as a free agent in March after spending the first five years of his career with the New York Giants.

The Bucs expect him to recover in time for the start of training camp in July.