Bidwills getting a bad rap on the board...

[Duckjake]

It's always funny when people pat the Bidwills on the back for extending the contracts of their good players as if that's some commendable and revolutionary decision by the franchise. Um, it's done and been done for decades by every legitimate team in sports.

And it's also not really being truthful. See Boldin, Rolle, Dansby, etc.

I agree but I do have to pat them on the back for finally being able to identify and extend really talented players for a change.

Extending Campbell and Dwash is a huge improvement over giving new contracts to the likes of LJ Shelton and Wrong Gap Ronnie and Small Play Ray.

Sad isn't it that Fitz and Leonard Davis (I think) are the only 1st round picks in many years to stay with the Cards past their initial contract.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Don't you remember the letter from Michael Bidwill they sent out? I'm sure one of the better searchers on ASFN could find it.

I found it. He sent a letter to season ticket holders. "I know the team sucked. We will try harder."

As a non-season ticket holder I continue to be underwhelmed. "Dear Michael, Well, two years have passed and still no quarterback. No quarterbackie - no winnie." Signed, Very Frustrated Fan

It takes five minutes to walk out of the building stand in front of the sheet with all the Cards logos and say, "We've got four games left. You're hearing a lot of rumors about the team and I'll clear a few of them up. Blah, blah, blah.") Fans sort of like knowing what's going on with their team. Michael (and the organization) could score all kinds of points with fans if he was the "I'm a fan too" guy who connected with us. It was easier getting information out of the Soviet Gulags.

 

[Duckjake]

I found it. He sent a letter to season ticket holders. "I know the team sucked. We will try harder."

As a non-season ticket holder I continue to be underwhelmed. "Dear Michael, Well, two years have passed and still no quarterback. No quarterbackie no winnie." Signed, Very Frustrated Fan

I'm with you girl. I sure wish they'd make up their minds on being a good team or a bad team. This WWWWW LLLLLLLLLL WWWWWWWW LLLLLLLL WWWW LLLLL stuff is hard to take.

 

[CardLogic]

...At a dinky un-imposing practice facility that doesn't exactly scream WE ARE THE ARIZONA CARDINALS. Manning must have been underwhelmed.)

I haven't been to other NFL training facilities, so I have no basis of comparison. However, the facility at Warner and Hardy seems more than adequate, and pretty damn nice to me!

But I suppose they could use a bubble on one of the fields.

 

[Mulli]

It's always funny when people pat the Bidwills on the back for extending the contracts of their good players as if that's some commendable and revolutionary decision by the franchise. Um, it's done and been done for decades by every legitimate team in sports.

And it's also not really being truthful. See Boldin, Rolle, Dansby, etc.

Yep, and just in the six or seven years, this organization was still clinging to "no extensions until season is over, right?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

My how time changes things. Everyone was singing praises for the Bidwill family and Graves when we unexpectedly went to the Super Bowl and now it's "The Same Old Cards".

Yep, and "my how time changes things" is right. That was four years ago. At the time we didn't know that after 2009 the owners would pull the ultimate "Same Ol' Cardinals" manuver and let the "core of the team" walk out the front door. Shades of 1999.

That is the start of the "Same ol' Cardinals".

But lets read on......

Do changes need to be made---absolutely. Will Mike Bidwill make them----I believe he will, but let's remember he has a lot of dollars at risk and is a good enough businessman to not foolishly throw money at a problem. Now is the time to sit down with associates, plan out the future of this team and make the moves at the appropriate times. It's time for carefully planned reactions and not "knee jerk" actions brought about by circumstances. This team is only a few players on offense away from being a great team. If handled correctly, most of the problems can be corrected in the coming year and we can be back into the playoffs in 2013.

BASED ON WHAT ?!?!!?

Seriously, based on what ?

What have the non-Warner lead Cardinals done to give any credit that Michael Bidwill and company can get the job done ?

The 6 game losing streak, the 7 game losing streak, or the current 8 game losing streak ?

Or the 4 years of not be able to find an average QB that has NFL caliber talent ?

Or the decades of watching offensive line, after offensive line fail ? Oh, its the coaches fault, or someone elses fault ? No. Sorry, its not. The fault is on the owner and its staff. What percentage of Cardinal offensive linemen go on to play and start on another team after Arizona ? Look it up, it is under 10% TEN PERCENT !!! They can't even identify NFL talent.

Sorry, 40, some and actually many of use, raised an eyebrow about Whiz when Derek Anderson was the starter, and the "in Whiz we trust" was flushed down the toilet after Max Hall started for this team.

If the Bidwills are so business savy and only make "the right moves" and "spend wisely" how do you explain Todd Heap, Adam Snyder, Levi Brown, Daryn College, Stewart Bradley, and the list goes on.

Sorry, I admire your positive outlook and faith, but I am not buying it.

 

[40yearfan]

Yep, and "my how time changes things" is right. That was four years ago. At the time we didn't know that after 2009 the owners would pull the ultimate "Same Ol' Cardinals" manuver and let the "core of the team" walk out the front door. Shades of 1999.

That is the start of the "Same ol' Cardinals".

But lets read on......



BASED ON WHAT ?!?!!?

Seriously, based on what ?

What have the non-Warner lead Cardinals done to give any credit that Michael Bidwill and company can get the job done ?

The 6 game losing streak, the 7 game losing streak, or the current 8 game losing streak ?

Or the 4 years of not be able to find an average QB that has NFL caliber talent ?

Or the decades of watching offensive line, after offensive line fail ? Oh, its the coaches fault, or someone elses fault ? No. Sorry, its not. The fault is on the owner and its staff. What percentage of Cardinal offensive linemen go on to play and start on another team after Arizona ? Look it up, it is under 10% TEN PERCENT !!! They can't even identify NFL talent.

Sorry, 40, some and actually many of use, raised an eyebrow about Whiz when Derek Anderson was the starter, and the "in Whiz we trust" was flushed down the toilet after Max Hall started for this team.

If the Bidwills are so business savy and only make "the right moves" and "spend wisely" how do you explain Todd Heap, Adam Snyder, Levi Brown, Daryn College, Stewart Bradley, and the list goes on.

Sorry, I admire your positive outlook and faith, but I am not buying it.

So what do you suggest?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

So what do you suggest?

Cry ?

Drink ?

Look at hot ladies ?

You must be registered for see images

Ahhh, but you are right. What is there else to do? (good question and retort by the way)

I guess the only thing that I can't see eye to eye with is saying the Michael Bidwill has really CHANGED anything or how he does things.

The proof of that is in the records (W-L) of the years he has been more or less running the team.

I don't expect the Cardinals to make the right moves. Maybe they will pull another "fall backwards into good luck" and find another Warner type signing that works out.

I dunno, but I am not confident this organization is setup to succeed, or even know what they are doing.

But, I will be here waiting, watching, and hoping to be proven wrong.

So to answer your question: Do what I always do, hope and dream. Yet, there is not much hope in the well right now outside Horton and the defense. But, then again, where is the hope that Horton will be around next year ?

 

[40yearfan]

Cry ?

Drink ?

Look at hot ladies ?

You must be registered for see images

Ahhh, but you are right. What is there else to do? (good question and retort by the way)

I guess the only thing that I can't see eye to eye with is saying the Michael Bidwill has really CHANGED anything or how he does things.

The proof of that is in the records (W-L) of the years he has been more or less running the team.

I don't expect the Cardinals to make the right moves. Maybe they will pull another "fall backwards into good luck" and find another Warner type signing that works out.

I dunno, but I am not confident this organization is setup to succeed, or even know what they are doing.

But, I will be here waiting, watching, and hoping to be proven wrong.

So to answer your question: Do what I always do, hope and dream. Yet, there is not much hope in the well right now outside Horton and the defense. But, then again, where is the hope that Horton will be around next year ?

Options are limited. We all know the Bidwill's are not going to sell the team, so therefore there are only certain options available. Change head coach, GM, coaching staff, player personnel or scouting department. I do believe Whis and most of his coaching staff will be let go and possibly RG as well. I have no idea what will transpire after that. Guess we'll just wait and see.

 

[Duckjake]

Options are limited. We all know the Bidwill's are not going to sell the team, so therefore there are only certain options available. Change head coach, GM, coaching staff, player personnel or scouting department. I do believe Whis and most of his coaching staff will be let go and possibly RG as well. I have no idea what will transpire after that. Guess we'll just wait and see.

Joel, I think what the Cards need to do is to once again evaluate their personnel department. The new scouts appear to be a huge improvement over the good old boys who inhabited the scouting department in years past but they really need to examine what is occurring that enables them to draft well on defense but poorly on offense. The offensive line coaching must be addressed and a very hard take on the QB situation in relation to the continued failure of any QB to improve the last 3 seasons has to be done.

Sadly I don't know what they can do to rectify the talent at the QB position unless Kolb suddenly becomes Iron Man or DDeuce and Lindley suddenly figure out how to throw a football. The Leinart failure has really hurt the team more than anything else because the few times the Cards had a chance to take a top QB they already had Warner and Leinart. And who is going to take a 1st round pick at QB with those two on the roster? Then instead of having a franchise, first round QB ready to step in when Warner suddenly retired we have a guy who admittedly wasn't working hard enough and some of the worst FA QBs to ever play in the NFL.

Hope for the future? The last 3 drafts have been very good compared to other recent drafts. We have a real defense and a legit DC. Now all they need to do is figure out how to build an offense that can ride that D to wins instead of yet more improbable Cardinal defeats.

 

[john h]

Bid wills don't need to be advised on anything.nthey have owned and operated this team for 40 years. Their gonna do what they do.

I think the Bidwill's ownership dates back to the early 30's so they have operated this team for much longer than 40 years. You would think by pure accident we would have won a Superbowl or more division championships than they have. Over the years they gained the reputation of being cheap. Rightfully so. They operated like no other teams with the way they did their contracts. They had a reputation among the players which is hard to overcome. Allowing people like Rod Graves to continue as the GM for so many years and after so much failure is unforgivable.

The reason we do not talk about the Bidwills more is they are the owners and will do what they want and are not likely to sell the team. Any person not named Bidwill can be fired so we all talk about things that might be changed. We are stuck with the Bidwills for another 100 or so years. Mr. B I think is still somewhat involved I think. He is not the kind of guy to just sit in his chair and watch TV. I think he still has some great influence with the spending of money and of keeping guys like Graves around. Certainly Michael is moving the team forward but only as far as Mr. B will let him IMHO>

 

[Totally_Red]

Joel, I think what the Cards need to do is to once again evaluate their personnel department. The new scouts appear to be a huge improvement over the good old boys who inhabited the scouting department in years past but they really need to examine what is occurring that enables them to draft well on defense but poorly on offense. The offensive line coaching must be addressed and a very hard take on the QB situation in relation to the continued failure of any QB to improve the last 3 seasons has to be done.

Sadly I don't know what they can do to rectify the talent at the QB position unless Kolb suddenly becomes Iron Man or DDeuce and Lindley suddenly figure out how to throw a football. The Leinart failure has really hurt the team more than anything else because the few times the Cards had a chance to take a top QB they already had Warner and Leinart. And who is going to take a 1st round pick at QB with those two on the roster? Then instead of having a franchise, first round QB ready to step in when Warner suddenly retired we have a guy who admittedly wasn't working hard enough and some of the worst FA QBs to ever play in the NFL.

Hope for the future? The last 3 drafts have been very good compared to other recent drafts. We have a real defense and a legit DC. Now all they need to do is figure out how to build an offense that can ride that D to wins instead of yet more improbable Cardinal defeats.

What the Cardinals is some luck. The kind of good fortune they got when signing Kurt Warner when almost nobody wanted him. The kind of good fortune New Orleans encountered when they acquired Drew Brees when only Miami and them were interested.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Look at hot ladies ?

Some of us do not have that option.

Though with Heap being released and Housler playing well, things are looking up.

 

[JeffGollin]

Mike Bidwill has been around the NFL all of his life. He has no excuses for what is going on with his team. Do not make the mistake of thinking that he needs bad advice from anyone to screw up cause his family has honed their skills in doing that to a fine art.

It is the Bidwill''s responsibility for the way Whisenhut has scewed up their team. BTW, the Bidwills did not give Whisenhut carte blanch to mis-manage their team and that is exactly what Whisenhut has done in putting his personal coaching interest before the welfare of the team as well as his moral responsibility to win all games possible.

It is time to fire Whisenhut for gross failure to put the team's interest first before his coaching career. He is no better than Buddy Ryan who ran the team into the ground while pushing his own special interests first.

Back in the day, it was enough to ask that ownership not act like a bunch of clowns.

The Cards got past that when Michael became more influential during the Denny/post-Denny era.

Ironically (& unfortunately) things have continued to evolve since then so that it's no longer enough "not to be a stumbling, bumbling idiot." Successful Owners and GM's have become downright smart/even brilliant. Look at all the proactive smart moves made in the last year or 2 -

Elway signs Manning. Indy grabs Luck. Shanahan gets RGIII. The bears grab Pepper. Harbaugh is brought in and drafts & then starts Kaepernick. Carroll is signed and rolls the dice on Wilson.

Bottom-line: The standard for ownership has been raised significantly. If you're going to out-compete your fellow owners (who are much smarter in the modern era) it's no longer enough to be a sound, rational well-organized kind of guy; you've got to be freakin' brilliant.

And if you're not, you'd better surround yourself with a bunch of folks who are.

 

[Goldfield]

The owners are not as bad as they used to be. Were extending key players, were making trades to bring in the hotest name QB at the time in Kolb, and handing him a fat contract.

Not the same ol Cards imo.

Are they innovative, and ahead of the pack? Trend setters? Not even close...

 

[red desert]

in my opinion.

Can't believe I'm typing this, but that's how I see the current situation.

I, like so many of you, have been justifiably critical of ownership over the years (38 years to be exact) but the current failures are not really on them, UNLESS they don't make changes at the end of the season.

Here's my thinking.

When Michael Bidwill hired Wiz, most applauded. MB even green lit the mill or so that Haley was paid as an assistant, as I recall. FO is committed was the feeling most expressed on the board. And no longer cheap!! I agreed. Earlier MB had signed Warner, at someone's behest to be sure, but he cut the check. Then he signed Edge to even greater fanfare. Cheap no longer was the call. I agreed.

At then came our Super Bowl run which justified all of the above.

It was about this time a gentle and glorious consensus fell upon the board -- MB has changed the way the Cardinals do business! More than that, he has changed the culture!! I wholeheartedly agreed. And still do.

So, as part of this new and improved culture, MB gave Wiz an extension. Hello? As many of you wanted, heck, demanded! Dude was listening. He was being proactive which is what we all wanted. Still want. Que no?

Problem is, he entrusted Wiz. IMO, that was the mistake he made. And Graves, to a lessor degree I think.

Of the two, I believe Wiz is the bigger culprit in our current morass. MB did what he believed was right for the team with signing Kolb. He did it because Wiz told him he's the guy. Graves may or may not have been on board with Kolb. In any case, I don't think MB cuts a monster check to bring in Kolb unless Wiz tells him he da guy. Add to this the ridiculous handling of the QB situation and no wonder that confusion abounds... but MB, I think, entrusted Wiz, like so many wanted. Give Wiz the power to mold the team in his image, or something like that. MB did exactly that. He has opened his checkbook. The blame for the lack of an NFL o-line can't be placed on MBs front step, imo.


He gave Wiz much more than fair shot. Wiz screwed the pooch.


Just my opinion.

Just saying...

MB really is the man to lead this franchise to the promised land.

 

[AzStevenCal]

the Bidwills forced Kurt Warner, who had just taken this team to the Super Bowl, to go to San Francisco in order to get the contract he deserved.

there's no rap bad enough for those guys.

I think we're too far removed to sit in judgement of this one. Especially since Warner came back to play for us. We have no real idea what his demands were and in the negotiation process, each side takes steps to try and see they get the best deal for their side. There are so many other things to despise about the Bidwillian management method that can safely be judged by the results.

Steve

 

[john h]

in my opinion.

Can't believe I'm typing this, but that's how I see the current situation.

I, like so many of you, have been justifiably critical of ownership over the years (38 years to be exact) but the current failures are not really on them, UNLESS they don't make changes at the end of the season.

Here's my thinking.

When Michael Bidwill hired Wiz, most applauded. MB even green lit the mill or so that Haley was paid as an assistant, as I recall. FO is committed was the feeling most expressed on the board. And no longer cheap!! I agreed. Earlier MB had signed Warner, at someone's behest to be sure, but he cut the check. Then he signed Edge to even greater fanfare. Cheap no longer was the call. I agreed.

At then came our Super Bowl run which justified all of the above.

It was about this time a gentle and glorious consensus fell upon the board -- MB has changed the way the Cardinals do business! More than that, he has changed the culture!! I wholeheartedly agreed. And still do.

So, as part of this new and improved culture, MB gave Wiz an extension. Hello? As many of you wanted, heck, demanded! Dude was listening. He was being proactive which is what we all wanted. Still want. Que no?

Problem is, he entrusted Wiz. IMO, that was the mistake he made. And Graves, to a lessor degree I think.

Of the two, I believe Wiz is the bigger culprit in our current morass. MB did what he believed was right for the team with signing Kolb. He did it because Wiz told him he's the guy. Graves may or may not have been on board with Kolb. In any case, I don't think MB cuts a monster check to bring in Kolb unless Wiz tells him he da guy. Add to this the ridiculous handling of the QB situation and no wonder that confusion abounds... but MB, I think, entrusted Wiz, like so many wanted. Give Wiz the power to mold the team in his image, or something like that. MB did exactly that. He has opened his checkbook. The blame for the lack of an NFL o-line can't be placed on MBs front step, imo.


He gave Wiz much more than fair shot. Wiz screwed the pooch.


Just my opinion.

What is your evidence that Whiz supported the Kolb deal. To me that deal was bad from the get-go. We gave up to much. Paid to much. All, for a guy who had not been a regular starter in the NFL since he arrived 5 years ago. If Whiz and Graves supported this then pox on both of their doors. This will haunt us to some degree for years to come as it has for the past 2 years. I do not know the numbers but I think most on the board did not like this deal when it was done.

Often it is what you do not do that is your downfall. We have not had guys smart enough to recognize talented QB's in the draft when they are there for our taking. That is not a matter of being cheap but of not recognizing talent. We have drafted high for many years but have little to show for it other than Fitz and he has no QB to thrown to him. Until we get a QB of substance we will continue down the same old road. Getting Warner was a stroke of luck not smarts. I think Fitz and all the staff had to go not because they were all incompetent but because we had to make a complete change and start over. The good went with the bad.

 

[40yearfan]

What is your evidence that Whiz supported the Kolb deal. To me that deal was bad from the get-go. We gave up to much. Paid to much. All, for a guy who had not been a regular starter in the NFL since he arrived 5 years ago. If Whiz and Graves supported this then pox on both of their doors. This will haunt us to some degree for years to come as it has for the past 2 years. I do not know the numbers but I think most on the board did not like this deal when it was done.

Often it is what you do not do that is your downfall. We have not had guys smart enough to recognize talented QB's in the draft when they are there for our taking. That is not a matter of being cheap but of not recognizing talent. We have drafted high for many years but have little to show for it other than Fitz and he has no QB to thrown to him. Until we get a QB of substance we will continue down the same old road. Getting Warner was a stroke of luck not smarts. I think Fitz and all the staff had to go not because they were all incompetent but because we had to make a complete change and start over. The good went with the bad.

When something bad happens to this team, it is managements fault, but when something good happens, it's luck. Bad attitude.

 

[RedViper]

People should be judged for their work product. In their quarter century in the valley they've managed to field a playoff team 3 times. In the age of parity, that is beyond ridiculous. I'd be a lot more hopeful if this thread was about how they take ownership of their track record and why things are going be different. There certainly no way to support the idea they've gotten a bad rap from anyone that doesn't believe based on the stunning record of futility.

 

[Mulli]

People should be judged for their work product. In their quarter century in the valley they've managed to field a playoff team 3 times. In the age of parity, that is beyond ridiculous. I'd be a lot more hopeful if this thread was about how they take ownership of their track record and why things are going be different. There certainly no way to support the idea they've gotten a bad rap from anyone that doesn't believe based on the stunning record of futility.

This. Yet somehow we are to overlook everything because of things that have been "different the last ten years."

 

[john h]

Got Greedy!?!?! A part ownership in the team wouldn't have been too much after what he did.

I'd sure like to know how all you guys know all this stuff that went on behind closed doors like forcing players on coaches and coaches wanting to trade or acquire certain players et al because I sure haven't seen it anywhere.

The problem with the Cardinals up until 2006 was threefold. They didn't know how to hire or pay coaches. They had a good old boy scouting department and they didn't have their own stadium. (Bidwills)

The problem we have now is also threefold. The failure of our top 10 first round QB in 2006 to pan out. The continued inability to build an offensive line they can keep together for more than one year. And finally the poor drafts of 2005-2008. (Everybody associated with the franchise)

All of us place blame in different places and at different times. In the real world of business the RESPONSIBILITY always goes with the owner. You cannot pass on or delegate responsibility to Graves, Whiz, Grimm or anyone else. Responsibility for the team rest with ownership and no one else. The owners hire all the guys we all love to hate and are the one common denominator in all the decades of futility. They recently exercised that responsibility by firing nearly all the staff.

 

[red desert]

This. Yet somehow we are to overlook everything because of things that have been "different the last ten years."

Not overlook, but maybe temper this constant whining about the past.

My initial take, if you read it again, was a commentary on the Wiz years and how his coaching staff's failures are his, and not necessarily on MB. I stand by that, and simply towing the whiners company line of, "But we have sucked for so long... wah wah..." Gets old.

If the signing of Kolb (wrong as it was, and yes, I hated the signing from the beginning) hiring of Arians and now Moore tells us anything its that the franchise has and hopefully will continue to evolve.

 

[JeffGollin]

Not overlook, but maybe temper this constant whining about the past.

My initial take, if you read it again, was a commentary on the Wiz years and how his coaching staff's failures are his, and not necessarily on MB. I stand by that, and simply towing the whiners company line of, "But we have sucked for so long... wah wah..." Gets old.

If the signing of Kolb (wrong as it was, and yes, I hated the signing from the beginning) hiring of Arians and now Moore tells us anything its that the franchise has and hopefully will continue to evolve.

I think the Bidwills have been running the family business in a better & more up-to-date manner, but so have the owners of most of the other 32 teams. (Keeping up with the competition is a bigger challenge than ever before - check out SF, Seattle and even the Rams).

Most of the decisions made by the Cardinal coaching staff and FO made sense to me at the time. (It's easy to point out the few exceptions - the Kolb action and OL Inaction to name two. I bitched mightily about both of these and, in fact feel they led to Wiz's and Rod's downfall). But on balance, the Bidwills have run a more buttoned-up ship. But, within the context of the fast company they have to compete with, they've got to do better.

I think they've been treated unfairly by knee-jerk Cardinal critics, but it cannot and should not give them a free pass to avoid constructive criticism. Still got to win us a bunch of games.

 

[Mulli]

Not overlook, but maybe temper this constant whining about the past.

My initial take, if you read it again, was a commentary on the Wiz years and how his coaching staff's failures are his, and not necessarily on MB. I stand by that, and simply towing the whiners company line of, "But we have sucked for so long... wah wah..." Gets old.

If the signing of Kolb (wrong as it was, and yes, I hated the signing from the beginning) hiring of Arians and now Moore tells us anything its that the franchise has and hopefully will continue to evolve.

Fair enough. We agree.