According to Jurecki...

[kerouac9]

The biggest problem is that we don't have any guns to outbid the premier free agents. The teams that have similar cash to dole out to these guys (NE, B-More, Chi-town) not only have similar amounts of money under the cap for their player (be it Colvin, Blake, Stewart, or whomever), but also have an argument for going there. Each of those teams should have at least one Monday night game, and at least another nationally-televised Sunday game (where Aikman or Simms are there). Also, they're in sports towns where they'll find their picture on the front page of ESPN.com or wherever during the season.

The legacy of the Cards is that they overpay, not for premier talent (what was the last true premier FA to come to the Valley?), but for mediocre talent. Freddy Jones and Duane Starks are good players, but no one really wanted them last year in free agency (Duane thought [and still thinks, I bet] that he's better than he is. He's not a shutdown corner. Chris McAllister is/was.), or whatever reason. If we pay a ton of money for Holliday or Okeafor, we'll be getting mid-level players at top-tier prices. It kills your team in the long run. This doesn't make a statement to the best players (they'll get paid no matter where they go [i.e., DB]), it makes a statement to glorified role players like Okeafor.

Above-average players know that they come to AZ for a nice hotel room, a free meal, and to get an extra $500K from the team that they really want to play for.

As for Graves, he made his splash at the very beginning of free agency by making insulting offers to the two best free agents on the market, both who were still under contract with his own team. Then he went out and showed at the Combine how AZ management treats its players, by running smack about Boston. Obviously, it was a belly flop. He continued this trend with his treatment of TJ (Previous management didn't help by not paying him after he got injured. You think something like this doesn't get around the league?).

In short, those of you who are talking about needing to sign Holliday and Okeafor at any price are going to get exactly what you're asking for. Just don't come here crying about overpaying for bad talent.

 

[mizzoucardfan]

You know there is one more thing to add to the perception mix.We blame Bidwill, Graves, past history of the franchise, the perception that the Cardinals will never win, etc. All of these things may or may not be true , but present company excluded,there is another reality out there also, the arizona fans are generally considered to be the worst fans in the NFL. Now before you start telling me that if the Cardinals would just win they would have all the seats filled, just look at other losing teams , the Bengals, the Lions, the Packers went almost two decades without making the playoffs and you still could only get tickets by inheriting them,etc. How many times do the T.V. cameras have to avoid panning the stadium in those arenas to prevent embarassing the league with a half empty stadium? You don't think that this also has a bearing on who a free agent wants to sign with? Not trying to start a fight just asking if you guys realize that this is also a perception that is haunting this team.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Russ, I see no reason to panic yet.

As I have pointed out before, Thornton is the only FA the Cards brought in that has signed anywhere else yet.

All these fantasies about So and So prefers Such and Such a place are just that.....fantasies.

The pure and simple fact is they haven't signed ANYWHERE yet!!!!

One thing modern professional sports HAS proven is that by far the players biggest motivational concern is MONEY.

The Cards have it now. They are offering it. Players and agents are shopping trying to get the best deal.....translated ....the most money.

When the smoke clears, common sense, and history should show that once again money talks. And the Cards are sitting in the drivers seat in that respect. Don't count them out just yet.

If anything they seem to be playing the game as intelligently as anyone. Graves says don't judge too soon. There really is no reason not to beleive him at this point....other than some rantings of impatient posters here who really have no real knowledge of what's really happening.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by mizzoucardfan
You know there is one more thing to add to the perception mix.We blame Bidwill, Graves, past history of the franchise, the perception that the Cardinals will never win, etc. All of these things may or may not be true , but present company excluded,there is another reality out there also, the arizona fans are generally considered to be the worst fans in the NFL. Now before you start telling me that if the Cardinals would just win they would have all the seats filled, just look at other losing teams , the Bengals, the Lions, the Packers went almost two decades without making the playoffs and you still could only get tickets by inheriting them,etc. How many times do the T.V. cameras have to avoid panning the stadium in those arenas to prevent embarassing the league with a half empty stadium? You don't think that this also has a bearing on who a free agent wants to sign with? Not trying to start a fight just asking if you guys realize that this is also a perception that is haunting this team.

Lions comparison makes some sense although until Ford Field opened up, I don't think they were selling anything out except Thanksgiving Day. They are the closest comparison though because of the glut of sports in that town when compared to AZ...except the Lions have been in DET fro eons and have a well established fan base due to history.

Cincy is a bigger stretch because they don't have near the glut of sports but the comparison is accurate when looking at fan support for a woeful franchise. Again, though, their long term history in Cincy...along with some degrees of success...creates a built in fan base.

The Packers comparison is off the mark IMO. They are pretty much the only game in town (everything else is small college sports and minor league stuff), thus all focus is on them 365 days per year. The Packers haven't had to compete one minute for their fans attention thus the stadium is full all the time.

There is no built in fan base in AZ for the Cards...in fact you could argue the Cards were disliked when they came here because of the strong Cowboy fan base already here. Add to that all the losing and the real and imagined ineptness of the organization and look where it is at. While winning will fill the seats...long term winning is the only thing that will bring them back year after year.

It is easy to sense the frustration here but until these FAs sign elsewhere, the reality is the Cards have just as good a shot. Once they start signing elsewhere...well the Cards will have to start plugging holes on another sinking ship. There are many here who believe these players care nothing about winning but if they sign with teams for less money than the Cards offered (and we can safely assume these teams are winning more than the Cards over time), then winning...and thus FA aquisitions/losses... has some importance in their decision-making.

 

[conraddobler]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
If you see no change in behavior from Ferguson to Graves, then you are choosing not to look.

And, by the way, it was your beloved Ferguson who tagged Simeon Rice, got nothing for him, and lost him anyway.

Ah, what the hell, you're going to see and believe what you want, regardless. I give up.

I agree Skorp they are pretty much in the drivers seat now but after a few years I think they will sing a different tune.

I can totally understand where they are comming from they think this is just another rebuild job and truthfully they could be right.

The one thing I see at least after following this team forever is that Graves is locking up the young guys. He also isn't going to ruin our future cap without the player being worth the risk.

This tells me that about 2005 "read when the stadium opens", he will have locked up enough young talent that we will start to age and grow as a team with or without FA. Then we will win some games start some momentum and move into a new stadium with new life.

That would be his plan IMO and I have a whole lot more faith in him than when Bidwill still mostly ran the team.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by conraddobler
The one thing I see at least after following this team forever is that Graves is locking up the young guys. He also isn't going to ruin our future cap without the player being worth the risk.

Whoa, there's a difference between locking up the young good guys (Wilson, the O-Line, DB) and locking up the young bad or mediocre guys (Shipp, any of the WRs, anyone on the D-Line except Wendell). Nothing that Graves has done so far has impressed me.

If Graves is sitting in his office and thinking that he's following the Eagles' blueprint for success, he's not a very smart man. He isn't re-signing B. Dawkins or D. McNabb long before their contracts are up. He's re-signing players that would end up on someone else's practice squad.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
uh, ajcardfan, wanna let us all know what rules of nature govern that some poor player will have to "break the logjam" and that once that's done "things will move quickly." i could see neither or those happening, unless you consider signing some third-rate talent "breaking the logjam" after which i hardly see "things moving quickly." this offseason is playing out as terribly as it possibly could.

Just a guess Big Guy. Has nothing to do with the laws of nature. Last year, we got nobody until early in the third week of free agency. Then, we signed Starks and Jones in the matter of two hours. This year, we have more money. Will it shake out that way again except with a couple of more players? Who the hell knows? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
As I have pointed out before, Thornton is the only FA the Cards brought in that has signed anywhere else yet.

All these fantasies about So and So prefers Such and Such a place are just that.....fantasies.

The pure and simple fact is they haven't signed ANYWHERE yet!!!!

I agree with your logic completely but the place where it fails is the fact that Stewart, Colvin, and Jackson have all allegedly stated that their first choice is not to play here. Stewart wants to sign in chicago, Jackson may be willing to take a million less a year to stay in tampa, and Colvin seems desperate to sign anywhere but here or Detroit.

We're already probably offering these guys the most money to play here, and if offering the most money isn't getting it done, i'd say it's time to hit the panic button because we don't have $hit else to offer except money and warm weather.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I think the talk about how excited we are about Gilmore and McCown etc is hard to believe given how little they actually played last season on a 5-11 team. Even before getting hurt Gilmore was basically a gunner on special teams.

This has been my point all along. All the sudden everyone's so "excited" about McCown, he's so wonderful that they couldn't even throw him in for a couple snaps at the tail end of a 5-11 season.

Kasper is a throwaway and the fact that everyone on this board was excited about him by the end of the year proves nothing other than how sad and pathetic things got last season......this guy is a street FA cut by two teams in 2 months and we're talking him up like we found a gem.

Ditto your sentiments on Gilmore, the talk about him didn't get all lovey-dovey and glowingly positive until we lost Boston, gee, what a coincidence, what timing. Everyone falls in love with Gilmore the day Boston leaves.

 

[Ryanwb]

We're already probably offering these guys the most money to play here, and if offering the most money isn't getting it done, i'd say it's time to hit the panic button because we don't have $hit else to offer except money and warm weather.

Time to bust out with hookers and midgets

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Time to bust out with hookers and midgets

Or something like that.

When we have to overpay Duane Starks by $5 million to get him to sign here, there is definitely a problem with the perceptions players have of this team.

 

[nidan]

Midgets ?

Sorry that went way over my head

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Russ, I see no reason to panic yet.

As I have pointed out before, Thornton is the only FA the Cards brought in that has signed anywhere else yet.

All these fantasies about So and So prefers Such and Such a place are just that.....fantasies.

The pure and simple fact is they haven't signed ANYWHERE yet!!!!

One thing modern professional sports HAS proven is that by far the players biggest motivational concern is MONEY.

The Cards have it now. They are offering it. Players and agents are shopping trying to get the best deal.....translated ....the most money.

When the smoke clears, common sense, and history should show that once again money talks. And the Cards are sitting in the drivers seat in that respect. Don't count them out just yet.

If anything they seem to be playing the game as intelligently as anyone. Graves says don't judge too soon. There really is no reason not to beleive him at this point....other than some rantings of impatient posters here who really have no real knowledge of what's really happening.

Point taken but let's face it, we've yet to see a FA this year come out and say "all I want is money I don't care about winning". Most are saying the exact opposite. On the old board there's a thread going where someone joked that we're out of the Kordell bidding because he had the audacity to say he wants to win!


Our only method of competing right now is to overpay, and even that isn't working yet as we have clear cases of guys soliciting more offers from other teams rather than take our HIGHER offer. Maybe they come crawling back to us later, maybe they don't.

THe NFL isn't like a new bridge across the Carquinez straits where there are rules in place and they have to choose the "best" bid, it ends up being the players' choice and so far the players are just "saying no" to Arizona this offseason.

It does concern me, to the average NFL player we are one of the places you do not want to end up being, that's very hard to overcome.

I thought we made a very positive decision on how to handle Jake this offseason but since then I think we're botching everything, like it or not I'm quite concerned.

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by nidan
Midgets ?

Sorry that went way over my head

Some guys are into that, like Orlando Pace and Teddy Bruschci

...and yes I would say that to their faces

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Having a bad hair day Russ?
Sitting on a pimple?

Disregarding anything except obsequious, fawning praise of the front office and players doesn't really prove your point, whatever that may be.

It would help if you constructed an argument rather than just reminding us that no matter how terribly this offseason is going, you are the beacon of eternal, irrational optimism.

Your response to Russ's comments is inaccurate. it is not our "fantasy" that guys don't want to come here. We have flat-out offered Jackson and Colvin more money than anyone else and they're shopping around to play for less on a team that might actually win something this year or next rather than a team that's trying to sell hope in Josh McCown and Bryan Gilmore, who are practice-squad caliber talents.

 

[JeffGollin]

Russ just because you say that things will work out OK doesn't mean it will

And Ed, just because Russ says it doesn't mean he's fawning over Cardinal management.

Don't forget that there's a built-in bias to dysfunctionalism inherent in the free agent process. (i.e. you are dealing with players who for one reason or another are having problems with their original team (and the agents who love them). Sometimes it's the team's fault, but often it's the player's.).

All we as fans can do is sit around and wait for the process to play itself out. Until it does, it's really unfair to pass judgement prematurely.

All Graves can do at this point is to occasionally give the process a nudge - to speed things up a little and tilt the baord slightly in the Cardinals' direction. (We just have to hope he's better at tilting than the Lions, Bears, Patriots, Seahawks, Leigh Steinberg etc.).

There will be plenty of time for us all to explode later on should Graves not succeed (Trust me. I will). But conversely, no one will have to eat crow if we chill, and then Rod finds a way to sign 3 or 4 quality dudes.

 

[Reddog]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
1. The Cards offered Dexter Jackson the most money but Dexter prefers Pittsburgh.

2. The Cards offered Kordell Stewart the most money but Kordell prefers Chicago.

3. The Cards have offered Roosevelt Colvin the most money but Colvin prefers New England.

If all this is true, and it likely is, how can you blame Rod Graves? He's doing what we all want him to do, but it's not working.

Rod's planning and good intentions may not be able to overcome the Bidwill stigma. At some point in time, this team may have to accept it cannot compete in free agency and just make the decision to get out of the FA market completely.

If Rod Graves signs nobdy this week, a message will have been sent by the entire body of NFL players to the Cardinals. Will the Bidwills be listening?

If we cant compete in FA why make a move with Boston that doesn't get us a draft pick? If we don't have clout for FAs and we don't have more upper draft picks where do we go for talent?

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Russ just because you say that things will work out OK doesn't mean it will

And Ed, just because Russ says it doesn't mean he's fawning over Cardinal management.

Don't forget that there's a built-in bias to dysfunctionalism inherent in the free agent process. (i.e. you are dealing with players who for one reason or another are having problems with their original team (and the agents who love them). Sometimes it's the team's fault, but often it's the player's.).

All we as fans can do is sit around and wait for the process to play itself out. Until it does, it's really unfair to pass judgement prematurely.

All Graves can do at this point is to occasionally give the process a nudge - to speed things up a little and tilt the baord slightly in the Cardinals' direction. (We just have to hope he's better at tilting than the Lions, Bears, Patriots, Seahawks, Leigh Steinberg etc.).

There will be plenty of time for us all to explode later on should Graves not succeed (Trust me. I will). But conversely, no one will have to eat crow if we chill, and then Rod finds a way to sign 3 or 4 quality dudes.

I think you mean Tango not Russ, I'm officially a "the sky is falling" person at the moment (-:

 

[FJM]

Reading these posts gives me a chuckle. Most of you wanted to get rid of Jake at any cost and David Boston could stay but no signing bonus and the contract had to be structured in such a way to protect the Cards if David even thought of going out and having a good time. What good is all that money if you can't have a little fun? Well, both of them said screw you and now we are between a rock and a hard place.

Who of you thought that if we let two top free agents walk the other players in the NFL who know a hell of alot more about who's good and who isn't wouldn't take notice. You guys thought that those free agents would fall all over themselves to become Cardinals. Sorry guys, you are just as guilty as Graves. if a free agent or his agent read this board the first thing he would say.......not the Cardinals. You cooked the stew and now's the time to eat it.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by FJM
Reading these posts gives me a chuckle. Most of you wanted to get rid of Jake at any cost and David Boston could stay but no signing bonus and the contract had to be structured in such a way to protect the Cards if David even thought of going out and having a good time. What good is all that money if you can't have a little fun? Well, both of them said screw you and now we are between a rock and a hard place.

Who of you thought that if we let two top free agents walk the other players in the NFL who know a hell of alot more about who's good and who isn't wouldn't take notice. You guys thought that those free agents would fall all over themselves to become Cardinals. Sorry guys, you are just as guilty as Graves. if a free agent or his agent read this board the first thing he would say.......not the Cardinals. You cooked the stew and now's the time to eat it.

FJM you have to get over Jake being gone. Jake was going to be gone whether the Cards made him an offer or not. It was his choice. Our problem has little to do with Jake if anything. If he was here we would still be the Cardinals with all that brings to the table.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yeah, I remember the good, old days when Jake and Boston were here and every free agent out there was kicking the door down wanting to play for the Cardinals.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
Yeah, I remember the good, old days when Jake and Boston were here and every free agent out there was kicking the door down wanting to play for the Cardinals.

Good one.

Yeah, that seems like just last week.