A Number of Thoughts Draft-related

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
16,777
Reaction score
13,449
Location
Modesto, California
oaken 1, I'll be the first to admit, that you know a lot more about the draft than I do, and I appreciate your take. All I'll say in my defense is that I've seen about four or five CB's going in the first round. And if we wait until the 3rd round, I think we'll have to get lucky in order to come up with a good CB. Is trading back the answer?

honestly there may be as many as five corners who get picked in the first..... but teams will be reaching as they always do for a position that has become so important in the league.

lots of factors come into play with corners... not just zone Vs Man coverage but field awareness, recovery, ball skills, physicality, where do they watch the play....
This is why a body of work is important....some guys have loads of ability but they make too much contact and have poor ball skills... he may turn into a fantastic corner in the nfl but you have to decide where you want to spend your picks...
a first round pick should be a guy you expect to be a game changer..... a DB that covers well, but draws penalties and never catches the ball is not a game changer... in the first you want a corner who can get the ball back for you

Hargreaves is likely the best corner in the draft even though Ramsey will probably go 10 spots ahead of him....Ramsey is bigger...Hargreaves sticks to the WR better, recovers better, and has better ball skills...

apple is arguable.... he will probably go in the first due to need... but really,...somewhere around pick 35-40 is where he should go because he is more of a developmental player...he will get eaten alive against nfl offenses to start out...he uses his hands too much to cover...and he cant really catch....a quick WR with nice sudden route running will draw PI calls on Apple all day long at this stage of his game.

since the Cardinals recent M.O. is to sit the first round pick for a year....maybe that makes apple the guy, lol...the potential is there with him
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
3. I think that when you analyze the Panthers and Seahawks, what jumps out at you is that you had better tackle and cover as well as they do, and you had better have chasers who can take down Newton and Wilson. The Cardinals still need to add 3 more chasers if they are going to challenge Carolina and Seattle and Green Bay for the NFC Championship.

There are number of chasers in this draft I really like for the Cardinals:

* LB Jaylon Smith, Notre Dame
* LB Myles Jack, UCLA
* LB Darron Lee, Ohio St.
* LB Leonard Floyd, Georgia
* LB Kamalei Correa, Boise St.
* DE Shaq Lawson, Clemson
* DE Kevin Dodd, Clemson
* DE/DT Sheldon Rankins, Louisville
* DE/DT Robert Nkemdiche, Mississippi
* DE/DT Vernon Butler, Louisiana Tech
* DE/DT Javon Hargrave, South Carolina St.
* CB Mackensie Alexander
* CB William Jackson III, Houston
* CB Will Redmon, Mississippi St.
* CB Xavien Howard, Baylor
* S Keanu Neal, Florida
* S/LB Miles Killebrew, Souther Utah
* S/LB Su'a Cravens, USC
* S/LB Jeremy Cash, Duke
* S/CB Justin Simmons, Boston College

Exactely on the money!!:cheers:
 

Jim Otis

Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Posts
1,261
Reaction score
186
Location
Mississippi
It seems like every thread I read is all about Defense , and more Defense to the point of ignoring the status of our O-Line . We have signed Guard Mathis , we have lost Cooper -- Trade , Massie to Bears ------- Larsen to Bears ------- Sendlein to Retired --------- Sowell to SeaHags . The math says Five O-Line gone , One signed . We had better consider this if Kelly is still on the board at pick 29 .
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
16,777
Reaction score
13,449
Location
Modesto, California
It seems like every thread I read is all about Defense , and more Defense to the point of ignoring the status of our O-Line . We have signed Guard Mathis , we have lost Cooper -- Trade , Massie to Bears ------- Larsen to Bears ------- Sendlein to Retired --------- Sowell to SeaHags . The math says Five O-Line gone , One signed . We had better consider this if Kelly is still on the board at pick 29 .



Lyle is not retired.

BA announced it....Lyle denied it......he may be back...

Mathis is an upgrade over anyone we had on the right side of the line...the downside is that he is likely a one year rental and will retire after he takes a shot at getting a SB...
If DJ is even pedestrian at RT we are even with where we were last season.... but we really need to be better.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
If you think Killebrew is a physical form tackler....

https://giphy.com/gifs/ox7D5Pm4EqbQc
QB would've trucked him all the way into the endzone if his teammates weren't there.

https://giphy.com/gifs/w27kQ1znLvEt2
FCS RB ran through him like nothing....

https://giphy.com/gifs/6kiMuuyoCnwOY
Just terrible technique here and he allows another broken tackle all the way to the endzone.


If you go back and watch his highlight tape, most of the tackles he makes come from screens where all he has to do is run in a straight line to make a tackle. But once he is challenged in open space, he is a terrible tackler.

Killebrew does struggle some in space---but what safeties don't? It's analogous to playing someone one on one in basketball. But when he sizes a ballcarrier up, he makes good, sure, hard-hitting tackles. That's what the Cardinals need---how many screen busters do we have other than Honey Badger and Deion?

Speaking of another Deion, Miles Killebrew has drawn quite a fan in Deion Sanders. At the Combine, Sanders made a point of meeting Killebrew and shaking his hand. Deion said he was a real fan. Killebrew told him that he should be the one introducing himself to Deion, because he is a huge fan of Deion.

Deion Sanders loves our DBs---a with good reason. I think there is a very good reason why he now loves Miles Killebrew. Now---do I think Killebrew is worthy of the #29 pick? That is probably a reach and I have Keanu Neal, Su'a Cravens and Karl Joseph rated higher. But, if the Cardinals don't draft a safety early on, it would be great to see them find a way to draft Miles Killebrew in Round 2 or 3.
 
Last edited:

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
It seems like every thread I read is all about Defense , and more Defense to the point of ignoring the status of our O-Line . We have signed Guard Mathis , we have lost Cooper -- Trade , Massie to Bears ------- Larsen to Bears ------- Sendlein to Retired --------- Sowell to SeaHags . The math says Five O-Line gone , One signed . We had better consider this if Kelly is still on the board at pick 29 .
There will be centers who will compete available at the end of the 4 & 5th Rds.

D and tackling in space in particular are still huge issues, especially considering who we have to play, and where we want to go.

I still see them signing more vets, OR Z making another trade possibly on draft day.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
I know you're supposed to take the BPA, but we DEFINITELY need a CB, and at #29, there is probably going to be a player that fits both definitions. And naturally I have no idea who he is.

Garth, the recent buzz is that the Cardinals are considering taking S/CB T.J. Green of Clemson with their first pick. Green is the best physical DB specimen in the draft---he's got length, muscle tone and 4.36 speed. Apparently the Cardinals want to play him at CB. And I can see why. But, Green has never played CB and he only played one year at FS with the Tigers, because he started out as a WR and they converted him. Green had a good year but was raw and got exposed in the National Championship game for being indecisive and way late in coverage.

As for the other CB prospects who might be available at #29 here are my quick takes, fwiw:

Mackensie Alexander, Clemson. Is only 5-10, but plays bigger. Very aggressive in coverage and in run support. Gets good leverage and beats WRs to spots, Interestingly, he did not make one interception this year. However, he did not give up one TD all year. He's got super swag---maybe too much for some's liking. Rumors are that his interviews at the Combine did not sit well with some clubs.

Eli Apple, Ohio St. he's got excellent length and ball skills. The issue with him is he is very 'hands-on" in coverage at times when he really doesn't and shouldn't need to be---thus he gets flagged and risks getting flagged again. He could develop into a very good press corner if he gets stronger and learns when to release and mirror faster.

Kendall Fuller, Virgina Tech. Fine pedigree as the youngest a 4 Fuller CBs. Has average size and speed, but is very savvy and technically sound. Has been sidelined by injuries to his knee and wrist---s durability is a question, which makes him a question mark at #29.

William Jackson III, Houston. He's gathered so much momentum going into the draft, I do not think there is any way he slides to #29. He's fast, quick and ball savvy. Not very physical in press coverage and he got away with getting beat deep on press coverage and still making plays and interceptions due to under thrown passes. But, this kid is dripping in talent and he's a pick-six waiting to happen. When he picks one off he takes off for the end zone like he is shot out of a cannon.

Artie Burns, Miami. Has the size and speed you want---but tends to give too much cushion at times and is inconsistent in his technique. Could develop into a #1 CB in time, but it will take a few years.
 

pacman

Veteran
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Posts
234
Reaction score
0
Killebrew does struggle some in space---but what safeties don't? It's analogous to playing someone one on one in basketball. But when he sizes a ballcarrier up, he makes good, sure, hard-hitting tackles. That's what the Cardinals need---how many screen busters do we have other than Honey Badger and Deion?

Speaking of another Deion, Miles Killebrew has drawn quite a fan in Deion Sanders. At the Combine, Sanders made a point of meeting Killebrew and shaking his hand. Deion said he was a real fan. Killebrew told him that he should be the one introducing himself to Deion, because he is a huge fan of Deion.

Deion Sanders loves our DBs---a with good reason. I think there is a very good reason why he now loves Miles Killebrew. Now---do I think Killebrew is worthy of the #29 pick? That is probably a reach and I have Keanu Neal, Su'a Cravens and Karl Joseph rated higher. But, if the Cardinals don't draft a safety early on, it would be great to see them find a way to draft Miles Killebrew in Round 2 or 3.
There are plenty of safeties that don't get run over consistently. And it's not just getting run over, this dude has really terrible technique. The last GIF shows he really doesn't know how to tackle. And this is against FCS competition. The tackles you see him making on his highlight reel look great because he's fast and hits hard, but he's far from a form tackler, complete opposite really.

Not sure if any player has ever been drafted for being a "screen-buster". Or if teams keep count of "screen-busters" they have and reach for an ideal number. There are countless players who have great speed and ability to run in a straight line and make a tackle. A player needs to demonstrate much more than that to earn a starting spot.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
There are plenty of safeties that don't get run over consistently. And it's not just getting run over, this dude has really terrible technique. The last GIF shows he really doesn't know how to tackle. And this is against FCS competition. The tackles you see him making on his highlight reel look great because he's fast and hits hard, but he's far from a form tackler, complete opposite really.

Not sure if any player has ever been drafted for being a "screen-buster". Or if teams keep count of "screen-busters" they have and reach for an ideal number. There are countless players who have great speed and ability to run in a straight line and make a tackle. A player needs to demonstrate much more than that to earn a starting spot.

Miles Killebrew is most of the time a textbook form tackler. Not sure why you are harping on a few bad plays. Every player has them. If we harped on Carson Palmer's interceptions in the NFC Championship game, we could say he doesn't know how to QB.

Check out what they say on NFL.com---they say in making highlight reel hits he doesn't compromise his form.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/miles-killebrew?id=2555315
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
There are plenty of safeties that don't get run over consistently. And it's not just getting run over, this dude has really terrible technique. The last GIF shows he really doesn't know how to tackle. And this is against FCS competition. The tackles you see him making on his highlight reel look great because he's fast and hits hard, but he's far from a form tackler, complete opposite really.

Not sure if any player has ever been drafted for being a "screen-buster". Or if teams keep count of "screen-busters" they have and reach for an ideal number. There are countless players who have great speed and ability to run in a straight line and make a tackle. A player needs to demonstrate much more than that to earn a starting spot.

pacman---take the time to watch this 3 minute video from the Senior Bowl. Mike Mayock was drafted by the Eagles and was a DB for a brief time in the NFL---he knows what he's talking about when he talks about DBs. When Mayock shows the 4 hits from Killebrew's tapes---look at what his hits all have in common in terms of form tackling:

1. He does not lower his head---he keeps his head UP!
2. He wraps the instant he makes the hit.
3. He keeps his feet moving and drives through the man to finish the tackle.

This is about as fundamental as tackling gets.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 
Last edited by a moderator:

pacman

Veteran
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Posts
234
Reaction score
0
pacman---take the time to watch this 3 minute video from the Senior Bowl. Mike Mayock was drafted by the Eagles and was a DB for a brief time in the NFL---he knows what he's talking about when he talks about DBs. When Mayock shows the 4 hits from Killebrew's tapes---look at what his hits all have in common in terms of form tackling:

1. He does not lower his head---he keeps his head UP!
2. He wraps the instant he makes the hit.
3. He keeps his feet moving and drives through the man to finish the tackle.

This is about as fundamental as tackling gets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8QARLrxzSI
I respect Mayock but disagree with him here. I'm sorry but the tape doesn't lie. Maybe the clips from the game I posted were a fluke but I doubt it
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
I respect Mayock but disagree with him here. I'm sorry but the tape doesn't lie. Maybe the clips from the game I posted were a fluke but I doubt it

Did you just watch the 3 minute tape? Those were textbook tackles, form-wise.
 

pacman

Veteran
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Posts
234
Reaction score
0
Did you just watch the 3 minute tape? Those were textbook tackles, form-wise.
Yes but it's just a highlight of a few plays and from the entire game film I watched his technique was pretty bad.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,461
Reaction score
16,602
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Garth, the recent buzz is that the Cardinals are considering taking S/CB T.J. Green of Clemson with their first pick. Green is the best physical DB specimen in the draft---he's got length, muscle tone and 4.36 speed. Apparently the Cardinals want to play him at CB. And I can see why. But, Green has never played CB and he only played one year at FS with the Tigers, because he started out as a WR and they converted him. Green had a good year but was raw and got exposed in the National Championship game for being indecisive and way late in coverage.

As for the other CB prospects who might be available at #29 here are my quick takes, fwiw:

Mackensie Alexander, Clemson. Is only 5-10, but plays bigger. Very aggressive in coverage and in run support. Gets good leverage and beats WRs to spots, Interestingly, he did not make one interception this year. However, he did not give up one TD all year. He's got super swag---maybe too much for some's liking. Rumors are that his interviews at the Combine did not sit well with some clubs.

Eli Apple, Ohio St. he's got excellent length and ball skills. The issue with him is he is very 'hands-on" in coverage at times when he really doesn't and shouldn't need to be---thus he gets flagged and risks getting flagged again. He could develop into a very good press corner if he gets stronger and learns when to release and mirror faster.

Kendall Fuller, Virgina Tech. Fine pedigree as the youngest a 4 Fuller CBs. Has average size and speed, but is very savvy and technically sound. Has been sidelined by injuries to his knee and wrist---s durability is a question, which makes him a question mark at #29.

William Jackson III, Houston. He's gathered so much momentum going into the draft, I do not think there is any way he slides to #29. He's fast, quick and ball savvy. Not very physical in press coverage and he got away with getting beat deep on press coverage and still making plays and interceptions due to under thrown passes. But, this kid is dripping in talent and he's a pick-six waiting to happen. When he picks one off he takes off for the end zone like he is shot out of a cannon.

Artie Burns, Miami. Has the size and speed you want---but tends to give too much cushion at times and is inconsistent in his technique. Could develop into a #1 CB in time, but it will take a few years.

I would be totally fine with Green... and I like the last name too :)
 

Snakester

Draft Man
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
5,412
Reaction score
2,125
Location
North Carolina
I can't see any need for a safety on this team. Every other position on the defense should come first. We are weak at DE,DT, ILB, and CB. Our strongest position on the defense is at safety. I would rather take another pass rusher at OLB than a safety as well.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,229
Reaction score
6,085
Location
Dallas, TX
I can't see any need for a safety on this team. Every other position on the defense should come first. We are weak at DE,DT, ILB, and CB. Our strongest position on the defense is at safety. I would rather take another pass rusher at OLB than a safety as well.

If they take a safety its for LB/S hybrid purposes! The games changing...Buc & now Mark Barron are LBs. In today's game of the pass, it's a total mismatch on most LBs in the passing game minus a few who can do both. Need an example? Look no further than Kevin Mintor...thats what made Dwash so valuable.
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,042
Reaction score
3,229
I can't see any need for a safety on this team. Every other position on the defense should come first. We are weak at DE,DT, ILB, and CB. Our strongest position on the defense is at safety. I would rather take another pass rusher at OLB than a safety as well.

I think many of us are not giving Tyvon Branch the respect he deserves. There is a reason he was signed early in FA and SK let Nubbie walk. Swearinger is also a tad underrated by many on this board as well. HB will be back in time to start the season and Jefferson is a quality Safety. So I agree that the need for safety is very low.

I don't agree we are weak on the D-line but upgrades there would pay huge dividends. While I share you desire to see the ILB position upgraded I don't think BASK feels the same. CB and C are the biggest needs at this point.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,229
Reaction score
6,085
Location
Dallas, TX
I think many of us are not giving Tyvon Branch the respect he deserves. There is a reason he was signed early in FA and SK let Nubbie walk. Swearinger is also a tad underrated by many on this board as well. HB will be back in time to start the season and Jefferson is a quality Safety. So I agree that the need for safety is very low.

I don't agree we are weak on the D-line but upgrades there would pay huge dividends. While I share you desire to see the ILB position upgraded I don't think BASK feels the same. CB and C are the biggest needs at this point.

I wouldn't count on the Badger being ready for the start of the season & possibly not before November considering he had surgery in January.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Posts
10,218
Reaction score
6,904
Location
Chandler
I wouldn't count on the Badger being ready for the start of the season & possibly not before November considering he had surgery in January.

He's already said he would be ready for TC. That's him talking though but from what I've seen he's already doing running drills & such. They are all saying he's way ahead of schedule. Don't underestimate the Badger.;)
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
16,777
Reaction score
13,449
Location
Modesto, California
I think many of us are not giving Tyvon Branch the respect he deserves. There is a reason he was signed early in FA and SK let Nubbie walk. Swearinger is also a tad underrated by many on this board as well. HB will be back in time to start the season and Jefferson is a quality Safety. So I agree that the need for safety is very low.

I don't agree we are weak on the D-line but upgrades there would pay huge dividends. While I share you desire to see the ILB position upgraded I don't think BASK feels the same. CB and C are the biggest needs at this point.



not weak on the D-Line??

So how many times have we seen these guys get pressure with a four man rush?? Every game? 50% of the snaps?? They draw so many double teams our linebackers run free??

Okay, you are right...they are fine.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
not weak on the D-Line??

So how many times have we seen these guys get pressure with a four man rush?? Every game? 50% of the snaps?? They draw so many double teams our linebackers run free??

Okay, you are right...they are fine.

Pressure is one phase, run stopping is the other.

We should add to the mix but "weak" is hyperbole. (IMO)
 

Snakester

Draft Man
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
5,412
Reaction score
2,125
Location
North Carolina
I think many of us are not giving Tyvon Branch the respect he deserves. There is a reason he was signed early in FA and SK let Nubbie walk. Swearinger is also a tad underrated by many on this board as well. HB will be back in time to start the season and Jefferson is a quality Safety. So I agree that the need for safety is very low.

I don't agree we are weak on the D-line but upgrades there would pay huge dividends. While I share you desire to see the ILB position upgraded I don't think BASK feels the same. CB and C are the biggest needs at this point.

I really liked what I saw from Jefferson last year. I think he will turn out to be a good starting strong safety. I also liked Swearinger. Add Branch, HB and Clemons and I don't see us drafting a safety at all.
I really want an impact defensive player with our first pick. Jaylon Smith, Kevin Dodd and William Jackson are my picks at 29. We need impact players at those positions.
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,042
Reaction score
3,229
Pressure is one phase, run stopping is the other.

We should add to the mix but "weak" is hyperbole. (IMO)

Cosign.

My preference would be to draft a pass rusher at the Dline position with the 29th pick but calling the DLine weak is as you stated, hyperbole.
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,042
Reaction score
3,229
I really liked what I saw from Jefferson last year. I think he will turn out to be a good starting strong safety. I also liked Swearinger. Add Branch, HB and Clemons and I don't see us drafting a safety at all.
I really want an impact defensive player with our first pick. Jaylon Smith, Kevin Dodd and William Jackson are my picks at 29. We need impact players at those positions.

Unless the Cards Doctors can state that Jaylon will fully recover then I hope he falls in the draft and we can pick him up then.

My preference is a pass rusher at 29 but if BPA takes us to CB or LB or C then I'm good with that. I agree that an impact defensive player at 29 would be best.
 
Top