2011 NBA FINALS: Dallas Mavericks Vs Miami Heat

Lorenzo

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huh? nash couldn't even get the Suns to a Finals, even though they were always just as good or better than the Mavs. You can't win a title when you're PG is just an atrocious defender.

and considering that Nash always got abused by a young Tony Parker and Bowen, there's no way that Mavs team gets passed SA in 2006.
I actually think nash was a thorn in the spurs side. yes he couldn't defend parker, but not many could. I actually think devin harris really hurt parker in 06 and beyond. he actually said that he was relieved when dallas traded harris for kidd.

either way...letting nash walk was exactly what dirk needed and maybe even steve. who knows what would have happened if they stayed together. remember the year before nash went to phoenix dallas melted down in the first and nash was on his way down.

either way I hope nash wins a ring one day. he is now my favorite ringless player and I would like to see that happen for him.
 

greensborohill

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No hard feelings Suns fans. Wish we could've taken guys like Nash & Hill along for the ride.
 

TheHopToad

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I was wondering whatever happened to that guy...

Congratulations. Enjoy the year, because I have a feeling it will be a long time before the Mavs are there again.

Of course, if the Mavericks never get another one in your lifetime, you're still in a better position than us Suns fans....
 

AzStevenCal

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I was wondering whatever happened to that guy...

Congratulations. Enjoy the year, because I have a feeling it will be a long time before the Mavs are there again.

Of course, if the Mavericks never get another one in your lifetime, you're still in a better position than us Suns fans....

Well, yeah, except for that whole Dallas thing. Most of us get to go through life without ever having to have lived in or near Dallas, never had to consider the Cowboys our home team and never had to learn to speak Texan. Those are big, big, big plusses IMO.:)

Steve
 

TheHopToad

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Well, yeah, except for that whole Dallas thing. Most of us get to go through life without ever having to have lived in or near Dallas, never had to consider the Cowboys our home team and never had to learn to speak Texan. Those are big, big, big plusses IMO.
Not to mention our city isn't predominately associated with the killing of the president...at least they're making some good coin off of that one though. Dealy Plaza is always crowded and it costs you ten bucks to walk around the sixth floor of the TSBD...
 

AzStevenCal

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Not to mention our city isn't predominately associated with the killing of the president...at least they're making some good coin off of that one though. Dealy Plaza is always crowded and it costs you ten bucks to walk around the sixth floor of the TSBD...

I had no idea. I'll have to think about it but I'm pretty sure I'm disgusted by it.

Steve
 

Arizona's Finest

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dude... what are you talking about? It was LeBron hitting every big shot in the fourth quarter and OT of Game 4 in Boston that put them up 3-1 (after scoring 35, 24 in the second half to put them away in Game 2), then went on a 10-0 run by himself when the score was tied at the end of Game 5 to win the series... and he was the one who took over the Chicago series, which Wade struggled throughout, scoring 9 points late in the fourth quarter of Game 2 en route to 29, 10 and 6 where they stole HCA, then carried the Heat with 35 when Wade was struggling in Game 4 and made big shot after big shot in the fourth quarter and OT to win that game and then in Game 5, both he and Wade teamed for a 16-0 run (with LeBron scoring the game tying bucket and the three to take the lead...) to take that entire series. all while completely shutting down Rose. All LeBron did in those series was take over. What series were you watching?





huh? this was the one series in the Eastern conference where Bron DIDN'T play well.



you didn't show up until they started LOSING the Finals.



huh? The story of the finals was he was finally living up to his legacy... that's why the story in the finals of his shrinkage has taken over all else.



but yet you talk like you've been watching the entire thing, when it's incredibly apparent, you have no idea what you're talking about.

makes sense... sounds like every Laker fan i know.

The voice of reason.

I get people hate Lebron but how people will make ANY argument to disparage him is just crazy. Lebron is still a great player and likely will be odds on favorite to be MVP next year. And Vegas already has Miami has 5:2 favorites.

Lebron will go on to have an amazing career and better nights then Game 6. That I am sure of.

Saying that I have NO CLUE what happened this past series. Not sure I have ever seen a player just get scared of the ball like that. Certainly not a superstar with those type of credentials.

Even Karl Malone showed up bigger then that in the Finals. Can't explain it and even after watching Game 2 I thought there was NO WAY Dallas could hang. Miami just looked SO much better. More talented. Better defense. Better coached. Everything.

And they were. And then Lebron just......POOF.......disappeared. I dont know if I should be crediting Rick Carlisle, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, a Voodoo Curse, Erik Spolesrta, Delonte West, Somedude sleeping with Lebrons girlfriend (which was a rumor) ...... or what. Many have said Lebron just doesn't have that killer insitinct and I dont know ho you can say otherwise at this point.

I mean even when Kobe was fireballing out of the Finals against the Celtics 4 years ago in Game &.....at least he went down swinging. (although this whole Lebron debacle reminds me alot of Kobe losing that Game 6 against the Suns in like 2005 only with much smaller stakes and media scrutiny of course)

Lebron needs to develop a go to move end of story. This mish mash of overpowering people and having a jumper once every 3 games is ridciulous. He is WAYYY too talented for this.

And Wade shouldnt be absolved of this either. He blew Game 4 at the end. He played one quarter of Game 5. He was a non factor in Game 6. He single handedly willed a MUCH worse team in 2006 but couldn't do it here.

I was definitely cheering for Miami (Dallas winning disgusts me.I look at Dallas as Phoenix's rival in everything and have a strange irritation with that city. I hate seeing Marion and Kidd win in Dallas and not Phoenix. I hate Cuban being validated for letting Nash go. I hate Cuban in general. Ugh) but it didn't bother me that much after they lost. Just was at a loss.

Morbid curosity had me come back into this thread. Congrats to Dallas, Dirk and to Lorenzo. Even after the title, he is still posting some of the best comments in this thread
 

Lorenzo

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Hey go easy fellas. I'm a cowboys fan too. and no dallas isn't only known for the JFK murder. There is much more to the city than that. It is great being a cowboys fan outside of green bay and pittsburgh we are probably the best next thing, then the mavs, stars, rangers, etc. a great area for sports and to live. i haven't lived there in over 8 years, but I must say it has really grown there a lot.

Phoenix is great too. lived there for 5 years. and if there is a place like dfw...phoenix is right there.
 

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The voice of reason.

I get people hate Lebron but how people will make ANY argument to disparage him is just crazy. Lebron is still a great player and likely will be odds on favorite to be MVP next year. And Vegas already has Miami has 5:2 favorites.

Lebron will go on to have an amazing career and better nights then Game 6. That I am sure of.

I'm not so sure any more. he may win a title or two, but i don't know if when all's said and done people will look at him as a guy who was amazing or a guy who never came close to realizing his potential.
 

Covert Rain

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I'm not so sure any more. he may win a title or two, but i don't know if when all's said and done people will look at him as a guy who was amazing or a guy who never came close to realizing his potential.

+1
 

TJ

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I'm not so sure any more. he may win a title or two, but i don't know if when all's said and done people will look at him as a guy who was amazing or a guy who never came close to realizing his potential.

This was not even a thought in people's minds before June. I understand he flamed out at the worst possible time, but how does two weeks worth of games mitigate his entire 7 year career, which has been nothing but amazing? To me, it sounds like people are trying awfully hard to make him a 2nd-tier player when it is virtually impossible to make such a cogent argument.

This thread would be interesting to revisit in 8 years +/- after Lebron's talents start to diminish and see how viable some of these anti-Lebron comments are.
 

Cheesebeef

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This was not even a thought in people's minds before June.

you're right... he got a free pass for going shrinky-dink in the Olympics because Kobe/Wade took that team over and they won the whole thing... then he got a free pass for losing to Orlando even though the Cavs were heavily favored to win that series because it was his first time there as a favorite and it looked like he needed more help to win... then he got more help the next year, was heavily favored to beat the Celtics and then, started getting criticized once he quit against them when the going got tough... but it was really THIS year that really coalesced the narrative that people just didn't want to see before:

when the chips are down, he's out.

I understand he flamed out at the worst possible time, but how does two weeks worth of games mitigate his entire 7 year career, which has been nothing but amazing?

you're presenting the issue as if those two weeks occurred in a vaccuum, completely failing to take into account that three separate times before the Finals, when faced with the ultimate pressure as a heavy favorite he failed EVERY TIME... and seemingly has failed to more shocking degrees the longer it's gone on. Players should be evolving as they get older... not devolving. That's what we've seen from LeBron over the last 4 years.

To me, it sounds like people are trying awfully hard to make him a 2nd-tier player when it is virtually impossible to make such a cogent argument.

actually... NO ONE'S making that argument. But people ARE arguing that there's very real evidence to suggest he's not the uber-super-ALL-EVERYTHING-NBA player he's been built up to be. He's a great player... with incredible skills and will win at least a title or two, but I don't think anyone can safely say this kid ends up as one of the top top tier greatest players of all time and that's where he's been projected to land since birth. And if you want to say, "well, that's a media creation" and it's not his fault... the media aren't the ones who tattoe'd "THE CHOSEN ONE" nor forces him to refer to himself as "The King".
 
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82CardsGrad

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actually... NO ONE'S making that argument. But people ARE arguing that there's very real evidence to suggest he's not the uber-super-ALL-EVERYTHING-NBA player he's been built up to be. He's a great player... with incredible skills and will win at least a title or two, but I don't think anyone can safely say this kid ends up as one of the top top tier greatest players of all time and that's where he's been projected to land since birth.

Scotty Pippen begs to differ... :D
 

TJ

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you're right... he got a free pass for going shrinky-dink in the Olympics because Kobe/Wade took that team over and they won the whole thing... then he got a free pass for losing to Orlando even though the Cavs were heavily favored to win that series because it was his first time there as a favorite and it looked like he needed more help to win... then he got more help the next year, was heavily favored to beat the Celtics and then, started getting criticized once he quit against them when the going got tough... but it was really THIS year that really coalesced the narrative that people just didn't want to see before:

when the chips are down, he's out.



you're presenting the issue as if those two weeks occurred in a vaccuum, completely failing to take into account that three separate times before the Finals, when faced with the ultimate pressure as a heavy favorite he failed EVERY TIME... and seemingly has failed to more shocking degrees the longer it's gone on. Players should be evolving as they get older... not devolving. That's what we've seen from LeBron over the last 4 years.



actually... NO ONE'S making that argument. But people ARE arguing that there's very real evidence to suggest he's not the uber-super-ALL-EVERYTHING-NBA player he's been built up to be. He's a great player... with incredible skills and will win at least a title or two, but I don't think anyone can safely say this kid ends up as one of the top top tier greatest players of all time and that's where he's been projected to land since birth. And if you want to say, "well, that's a media creation" and it's not his fault... the media aren't the ones who tattoe'd "THE CHOSEN ONE" nor forces him to refer to himself as "The King".


You eviscerated your own argument with this statement.
 

Covert Rain

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You eviscerated your own argument with this statement.

No he didn't. He simply saying that LeBron is a great player who can possibly be viewed as never reaching his full potential.

Everybody was crowning LeBron as the player that could supplant say MJ as the greatest player to ever play. People were saying LeBron would win a bunch of titles.

However, if LeBron continues to have mental lapses that he has so far in his career, people will look back on him and say he was a great player but he never became the best player in the league or never became that player with a bunch of rings.
 

Cheesebeef

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You eviscerated your own argument with this statement.

seriously... what kind of response is the above?

i said he'll probably go down as a great player if he wins one or two titles, but I think he's far from a place where it's a certainty that he'll be looked at as AMAZING amongst the pantheon of the greatest of all time like a Magic, MJ, Bird, Duncan, Russel, Jabbar, Kobe.

With one or two titles, he probably goes down in the same class as a Isiah, Wade, Dirk... and those guys ARE second tier All-timers. not sure you can argue otherwise.

I do find it interesting though that once AGAIN, you decided to post the above while seemingly projecting some kind of argument on to me while completely failing to respond to anything else about the continual pattern of LeBron choking when the pressure's been at it's peak as his career has advanced.

but hey... it's your time and your keys, so type what you want. just don't tell me i eviscerated a point I never made. that's bush.
 

TJ

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seriously... what kind of response is the above?

Your post was completely contradictory. Either he's a great player or not. Pick one and roll with it.

i said he'll probably go down as a great player if he wins one or two titles, but I think he's far from a place where it's a certainty that he'll be looked at as AMAZING amongst the pantheon of the greatest of all time like a Magic, MJ, Bird, Duncan, Russel, Jabbar, Kobe.

You said he WILL win one or two titles, not IF.

I rarely make responses like the above, but if you continue to contradict yourself, what am I left with?

With one or two titles, he probably goes down in the same class as a Isiah, Wade, Dirk... and those guys ARE second tier All-timers. not sure you can argue otherwise.

Yes I can. Lebron has better average career stats than Kobe (in your pantheon), Dirk, Isaiah and Wade and has played on crappier teams where it was him and no one else. Kobe had Shaq and Gasol. Isaiah had Dumars and Lambier, Wade had Shaq. Lebron has had only a bunch of role players up until now, then goes on a team which overhauled over 75% of the entire roster over the offseason leaving little room for instant team chemistry. Also, in 2010-2011, Lebron led the Heat in three of the major statistical categories (ppg, assists pg, steals pg). Wade led in none. If he continues to do that on the Heat AND win one or two titles (like you said), then he will have one-upped a 2nd-tier player in Wade (your barometer).

Remember. Titles are a "team" accomplishment. Not a "player" accomplishment. Oscar Robertson, one of the greatest players of all time (some put him in the Jordan category), won only one title. He should be in your pantheon. Not sure how he was excluded.


I do find it interesting though that once AGAIN, you decided to post the above while seemingly projecting some kind of argument on to me while completely failing to respond to anything else about the continual pattern of LeBron choking when the pressure's been at it's peak as his career has advanced.

Why? The choking thing is completely blown out or proportion. Up until the Finals, he was obliterating the opposition, almost single-handedly. I don't see a "continual pattern." I see a bunch of people overreacting and going as far as to reference the ****ing Olympics to make a point. Lebron is not the first player I want taking the final shot in the 4th, but he is certainly not the last.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: he will figure this out. He's too good of a player not to. But don't ask me. Ask Vegas, who has them at 5:2 odds to win it all next year.

but hey... it's your time and your keys, so type what you want. just don't tell me i eviscerated a point I never made. that's bush.

Sorry if you took offense bro. Still like ya, but you can come better than that.
 

Covert Rain

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Your post was completely contradictory. Either he's a great player or not. Pick one and roll with it.

TJ, are you saying a player can't be great and still fall short of expectations? I thought his point made sense?

LeBron said he wanted to be the best player ever. LeBron said he wants to win 7 or whatever he said. He literally had one of the biggest mental breakdowns in NBA finals history for a Superstar and supposed best player in the NBA.

There are many great players who never lived up to the hype of the best ever or even the best player in the NBA for that matter.
 

Cheesebeef

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Your post was completely contradictory. Either he's a great player or not. Pick one and roll with it.

again, you're completely ignoring my argument. LeBron is a great player... I'm talking about one the LEGENDS of the game. What aren't you getting about that?


You said he WILL win one or two titles, not IF.

I rarely make responses like the above, but if you continue to contradict yourself, what am I left with?

actually, you do this a lot on the cardinals board... but that's fine. you continue to ignore my argument, so you're left with whatever you want to make up to suit yours.


Yes I can. Lebron has better average career stats than Kobe (in your pantheon),

yup... and has shown none of the ability to step up when it matters most and the pressure's on him. You can throw whatever stats you want at me, but the bottom line is the guy has crumbled under pressure more and more as his career has gone on.

Dirk, Isaiah and Wade and has played on crappier teams where it was him and no one else. Kobe had Shaq and Gasol. Isaiah had Dumars and Lambier, Wade had Shaq. Lebron has had only a bunch of role players up until now, then goes on a team which overhauled over 75% of the entire roster over the offseason leaving little room for instant team chemistry. Also, in 2010-2011, Lebron led the Heat in three of the major statistical categories (ppg, assists pg, steals pg). Wade led in none. If he continues to do that on the Heat AND win one or two titles (like you said), then he will have one-upped a 2nd-tier player in Wade (your barometer).

Remember. Titles are a "team" accomplishment. Not a "player" accomplishment. Oscar Robertson, one of the greatest players of all time (some put him in the Jordan category),

are you kidding with this? A tiny minority put him in the Jordan category but yeah, I did miss him. the greats are talked about the pantheon ROUTINELY goes like this: Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem. He's pretty much routinely included in this group... but he's the ONLY one who's got a sole title under his belt and forgive me if i'm wrong, but was Oscar ever accused of quitting on his team in one season then completely cradling up like a scared baby in another?


Why? The choking thing is completely blown out or proportion. Up until the Finals, he was obliterating the opposition, almost single-handedly.

Um... isn't that the point... that when he faced the ultimate pressure, the guy who was destroyed the league completely went into the tank?

I don't see a "continual pattern."

so, you're telling me he didn't quit against Boston when the going got tough last year and he was a heavy favorite to win? and he didn't curl up into a ball this year when the going got tough and he was a heavy favorite to win? and he didn't shrink in the Olympics? How is that not a continual pattern? You say it's not, but what is you evidence to the contrary?

I see a bunch of people overreacting and going as far as to reference the ****ing Olympics to make a point.

um... what's the problem with giving what I believe is evidence that furthers my point that Bron has problems when the spotlight's the greatest on him/ The above acts like it's a negative to back up your argument with more than just "you're wrong". I provide "you're wrong and here's why i believe you're wrong" and you basically reply that I'm going as far to bring evidence in to make my point... duh. How else am i supposed to make my point?

Lebron is not the first player I want taking the final shot in the 4th, but he is certainly not the last.

Okay... not sure what this has to do with anything considering i never said anything like this. Your problem here is that you're talking in black and whites, projecting an argument on to me that because I think LeBron has major questions whether he can ever reach the highest echelons of NBA legends that that automatically means i think he's not great... but I don't think he's shown the mentally capability to be a legend. That's not black and white... it's a shade of gray.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: he will figure this out. He's too good of a player not to.

I think the thing is we might have different ideas of "figuring it out". Maybe to you, he figures it out and wins a couple titles... but to me, a guy with his skill and talent around him "figures it out" when he dominates the league and no one can beat him... for years. Even Shaq got to that level at some point. I just don't know if Bron has the mental capabilities to do so.

But don't ask me. Ask Vegas, who has them at 5:2 odds to win it all next year.

they had them as the favorite to win the title against Dallas too.


Sorry if you took offense bro. Still like ya, but you can come better than that.

i really don't care if you like me or not TJ. You came in here during the playoffs and ripped people to shreds because you have some kind of affinity for LeBron and seemingly can't admit that you're wrong, so you skewe others opinions to make your argument stronger. i'd say you can come better than that, but i don't know if you can... and truthfully, don't care.
 

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