Black Monday 2022 edition

[Goodyear Card]

Panthers fire trio of coaches on Tuesday

With Matt Rhule's job seemingly still not safe, the Panthers fired three assistant coaches on Tuesday.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[Chopper0080]

"Than what KK brought when he was hired" is the key part of that sentence that you blithely ignored. KK was a nobody when hired and hasn't shown me he has the nous to be a good NFL coach. I'd prefer to HIRE someone with more NFL experience--well, technically, 1 game is more than what KK had. We aren't HIRING KK right now; we'd BE hiring KM in this scenario. Pretty clear.

All I will say is this. Kliff's deficiencies are game management and team discipline (leadership). There is 100% zero evidence that Kellen Moore would solve either of those issues. There is 100% evidence that we would have to start over from rock bottom with a new scheme when we have a inexperienced QB who is still struggling with the nuances of the NFL QB position. Giving him a new scheme to learn is not going to speed up that process.

 

[Stout]

All I will say is this. Kliff's deficiencies are game management and team discipline (leadership). There is 100% zero evidence that Kellen Moore would solve either of those issues. There is 100% evidence that we would have to start over from rock bottom with a new scheme when we have a inexperienced QB who is still struggling with the nuances of the NFL QB position. Giving him a new scheme to learn is not going to speed up that process.

It won't speed up the process, but if KK can't develop him, we need someone who can. He might be set back slightly at first, but the greater developmental gains would far outweigh that. This is based on my opinion that KK can't get the best out of KM. Someone needs to be able to get through to him that he can't just rely on his vaunted "cognitive ability" and has to put in all of the work, that he has to change certain aspects of his game. I don't think KK can effectively criticize him, constructively, and prod him to be better. If he could, we wouldn't see constant repeats of stupid mistakes.

 

[Dback Jon]

It won't speed up the process, but if KK can't develop him, we need someone who can. He might be set back slightly at first, but the greater developmental gains would far outweigh that. This is based on my opinion that KK can't get the best out of KM. Someone needs to be able to get through to him that he can't just rely on his vaunted "cognitive ability" and has to put in all of the work, that he has to change certain aspects of his game. I don't think KK can effectively criticize him, constructively, and prod him to be better. If he could, we wouldn't see constant repeats of stupid mistakes.

Alternate thought - what if KK IS getting the best out of KM, and until KM matures, this is who he is, no matter who the coach is?

 

[Stout]

Alternate thought - what if KK IS getting the best out of KM, and until KM matures, this is who he is, no matter who the coach is?

It's possible. I'm trying not to go that dark, because that means we picked a lazy jackass at #1 who will probably never realize his potential, whose ceiling is a 1 and done in the playoffs, or somewhere thereabouts. So, I'm going with the other option

 

[Dback Jon]

It's possible. I'm trying not to go that dark, because that means we picked a lazy jackass at #1 who will probably never realize his potential, whose ceiling is a 1 and done in the playoffs, or somewhere thereabouts. So, I'm going with the other option

At least he's not Josh Rosen

 

[Krangodnzr]

Wow, the flexible mental gymnastics to try to make it seem as if KK was more suited to be an NFL head coach than KM is amazing!

But it's not. Kellen Moore has OC experience. Many failed coordinators weren't up to the task of being a HC.

College HC have even more responsibilities than NFL HCs, by a good margin.

A not insignificant number of coordinators have failed just because they weren't ready for the expanding role that being a head coach entails. I know you aren't a fan of Kingsbury, but your argument here is #fakenews.

 

[Krangodnzr]

It's possible. I'm trying not to go that dark, because that means we picked a lazy jackass at #1 who will probably never realize his potential, whose ceiling is a 1 and done in the playoffs, or somewhere thereabouts. So, I'm going with the other option

I don't think Murray is lazy. I think he is a bit arrogant in believing he doesn't need the film study.

Sometimes young people won't listen to good advice and have to learn things on their own. Long term, I think Murray will be fine, but his learning curve is now taking longer than it should.

Just from reading the situation, I doubt a forceful, in-your-face kind of person is going to work with Murray. Those kinds of people rarely work with any modern young men.

 

[Chopper0080]

It won't speed up the process, but if KK can't develop him, we need someone who can. He might be set back slightly at first, but the greater developmental gains would far outweigh that. This is based on my opinion that KK can't get the best out of KM. Someone needs to be able to get through to him that he can't just rely on his vaunted "cognitive ability" and has to put in all of the work, that he has to change certain aspects of his game. I don't think KK can effectively criticize him, constructively, and prod him to be better. If he could, we wouldn't see constant repeats of stupid mistakes.

I think we have seen development with Kyler from what he was when drafted to what he is now. Outside of the two minute stuff, Kyler has shown that he has been taught how to do almost everything with glimpses. Now he just has to do it. That is on him. He has to believe that he needs to be better. You aren't bringing in a coach who is going to be allowed to bench him. So, at this rate, you kinda have to keep reinforcing what needs to happen until he recognizes that the consistency and improvement have to come from him.

 

[Chopper0080]

It's possible. I'm trying not to go that dark, because that means we picked a lazy jackass at #1 who will probably never realize his potential, whose ceiling is a 1 and done in the playoffs, or somewhere thereabouts. So, I'm going with the other option

Kyler isn't lazy, he is just arrogant. He is the guy who will go away from guys who make mistakes rather than going back to them to give them another shot. He is the guy who will brush off his error because AJ Green should have caught it or Jones got a penalty. Until that changes, he is not going to recognize how much more work it takes to be a great NFL QB.

and he is not the first QB to have this issue. He looks up to Michael Vick who had the same issues.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think we have seen development with Kyler from what he was when drafted to what he is now. Outside of the two minute stuff, Kyler has shown that he has been taught how to do almost everything with glimpses. Now he just has to do it. That is on him. He has to believe that he needs to be better. You aren't bringing in a coach who is going to be allowed to bench him. So, at this rate, you kinda have to keep reinforcing what needs to happen until he recognizes that the consistency and improvement have to come from him.

Yep. We've seen Murray step up in the pocket and delivery strikes to third reads. We've seen him audible into huge plays when he saw something in his presnap reads. What I think I see, is that when things don't start out well in a game, that he mentally goes into a shell and starts to try and make plays on pure instinct. He needs to learn that when things aren't going well, he needs to be more clinical, more decisive.

It's funny because during the same season, we've seen portions of time where Murray ignores check downs and attempts way harder, riskier throws downfield, but we've as seen times where Murray goes to the check down immediately when there was throws downfield to make. The more conservative Murray seems to be the less confident player. The pouty player.

I think the path forward is that the Cardinals need to improve the OL and running game. They need something to lean on when Murray is up in his feel feels.

 

[kerouac9]

But it's not. Kellen Moore has OC experience. Many failed coordinators weren't up to the task of being a HC.

College HC have even more responsibilities than NFL HCs, by a good margin.

A not insignificant number of coordinators have failed just because they weren't ready for the expanding role that being a head coach entails. I know you aren't a fan of Kingsbury, but your argument here is #fakenews.

This is an interesting idea. I just think the jobs are really, really different. College HCs have to deal with stuff that Pro coaches don't (primarily managing boosters and recruiting), but the best ones don't spend a lot of time doing coaching, practice management, and game planning. They're at such a personnel advantage that they can run the same kids out there and win 80% of their games.

Pro Coaches have to manage the media to some level, but they are really focused on and have to deal with a ton of CEO minutiae and game planning and everything else.

I think that Kliff has too many jobs right now. He did devolve/delegate some of his tasks to Tom Clements, but it didn't work out. It'd be really interesting to buy that guy a drink and find out what Kyler's like and how hard you can coach him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

This is an interesting idea. I just think the jobs are really, really different. College HCs have to deal with stuff that Pro coaches don't (primarily managing boosters and recruiting), but the best ones don't spend a lot of time doing coaching, practice management, and game planning. They're at such a personnel advantage that they can run the same kids out there and win 80% of their games.

They are really different, which is why I don't think using his college record against him is really fitting.

College coaches are much less involved in game planning. They are true CEOs of a program, whereas at the pro level, they have specific departments that handle a lot of the non-football stuff.

I think it is much more germane to look at Kliff's offensive success than his total program success because he obviously sucked at a lot of the aspects of being a college HC that aren't present at the pro level.

Pro Coaches have to manage the media to some level, but they are really focused on and have to deal with a ton of CEO minutiae and game planning and everything else.

I think that Kliff has too many jobs right now. He did devolve/delegate some of his tasks to Tom Clements, but it didn't work out. It'd be really interesting to buy that guy a drink and find out what Kyler's like and how hard you can coach him.

Managing Kyler is probably fairly difficult and probably takes a person that will allow him to be who he is, but gently guide him to the right solution. I doubt a Belichick would do well with Kyler.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think Murray is lazy. I think he is a bit arrogant in believing he doesn't need the film study.

Sometimes young people won't listen to good advice and have to learn things on their own. Long term, I think Murray will be fine, but his learning curve is now taking longer than it should.

Just from reading the situation, I doubt a forceful, in-your-face kind of person is going to work with Murray. Those kinds of people rarely work with any modern young men.

Let’s remember that forceful doesn’t have to mean jerk and I think a lot of people are conflating the two. And in my experience (which is a TON - we have a very large population of young smart men and women working for us) the best of the best seem to have responded the best, and achieved the most, with a stronger hand guiding them than with a lax attitude (and we’ve had both types of managers). Those are the ones that have become superstars for us.

 

[kerouac9]

Let’s remember that forceful doesn’t have to mean jerk and I think a lot of people are conflating the two. And in my experience (which is a TON - we have a very large population of young smart men and women working for us) the best of the best seem to have responded the best, and achieved the most, with a stronger hand guiding them than with a lax attitude (and we’ve had both types of managers). Those are the ones that have become superstars for us.

Do you trust Michael Bidwill and Steve Keim to identify this kind of person?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do you trust Michael Bidwill and Steve Keim to identify this kind of person?

No but that’s a spurious question because we are always going to have bidwill doing that identification. There’s always a chance that the blind squirrel finds the nut if they turn over enough leaves.

 

[kerouac9]

No but that’s a spurious question because we are always going to have bidwill doing that identification. There’s always a chance that the blind squirrel finds the nut if they turn over enough leaves.

Kind of. It's part of my risk calculus around Kingsbury, though. The Cards are only going to be good if the optimize the performance of Kyler Murray. We have a guy who can unlock significant portions of Kyler's ability -- albeit inconsistently.

I'm not frustrated yet with the Murray-Kingsbury dynamic to (at least theoretically) blow the entire thing up and bring in, like Josh McDaniels or someone like that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kind of. It's part of my risk calculus around Kingsbury, though. The Cards are only going to be good if the optimize the performance of Kyler Murray. We have a guy who can unlock significant portions of Kyler's ability -- albeit inconsistently.

I'm not frustrated yet with the Murray-Kingsbury dynamic to (at least theoretically) blow the entire thing up and bring in, like Josh McDaniels or someone like that.

I get that. Though I’m a big critic of kliff’s I’m okay with another season. If by season 4 he hasn’t fully convinced me I’ll likely be out 100%. He’s obviously been better than a lot of dreck we’ve had in the past, but I’m just never going to be one to settle for “good enough.” I want to be a legit contender. And I’m willing to take chances to get there.

 

[Stout]

But it's not. Kellen Moore has OC experience. Many failed coordinators weren't up to the task of being a HC.

College HC have even more responsibilities than NFL HCs, by a good margin.

A not insignificant number of coordinators have failed just because they weren't ready for the expanding role that being a head coach entails. I know you aren't a fan of Kingsbury, but your argument here is #fakenews.

Good lord, this is weak sauce. So KK was more suited to being an NFL HEAD COACH because he...had college coaching experience that is absolutely nothing like being a head coach in the NFL? So KM is less suited for the role of NFL head coach than KK because he never coached in college? Your argument is laughable.

By ANY metric, KK was a head-scratching hire when he came in. At best, he was a major risk with, you'd hope, a jackpot upside, but also with major bust potential. We haven't seen a full bust, but we have seen 2 2nd-half swoons.

 

[Stout]

I don't think Murray is lazy. I think he is a bit arrogant in believing he doesn't need the film study.

Sometimes young people won't listen to good advice and have to learn things on their own. Long term, I think Murray will be fine, but his learning curve is now taking longer than it should.

Just from reading the situation, I doubt a forceful, in-your-face kind of person is going to work with Murray. Those kinds of people rarely work with any modern young men.

It doesn't have to be a rah-rah, in-your-face kind of person, but the passive "let him get to it on his own" approach clearly isn't working. I'm with you that it's possible arrogance is instead the problem.

 

[slanidrac16]

Good lord, this is weak sauce. So KK was more suited to being an NFL HEAD COACH because he...had college coaching experience that is absolutely nothing like being a head coach in the NFL? So KM is less suited for the role of NFL head coach than KK because he never coached in college? Your argument is laughable.

By ANY metric, KK was a head-scratching hire when he came in. At best, he was a major risk with, you'd hope, a jackpot upside, but also with major bust potential. We haven't seen a full bust, but we have seen 2 2nd-half swoons.

Well, to be honest we haven’t seen 11 wins in a while.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Maybe Ross really liked Vance when Vance was in Miami...

Or he’s familiar and they get along so he gets a free two day vacay to Miami to get the club past the Rooney rule.

 

[TheCardFan]

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[TheCardFan]

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[Ronin]

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