What’s up with PR?

[Mainstreet]

This thread really isn't making me miss P&R and want to open it.

Quick update, no decision has been made yet. I'm looking to get it decided upon something this week. Things have been delayed a bit due to my health. I've had a nasty stomach issue since the fourth that's had me down. I've been feeling better the last two days and hopefully I'm good to go from it.

FYI, if we do open it, the rules are going to be much tighter. It'll basically be the case of act like adults or there will be consequences. We can't have it being as bad as it was.

Get well, that's the main thing.

 

[Devilmaycare]

Sorry guys for my part. I should have known better than to take the troll off ignore. I figured I would try to take everyone off my ignore list. I was being overly optimistic about a reset.

Back to the topic at hand. I wonder if we can do any testing of the add-on I posted? If this was work it would be easy. We could test it in Dev or test environments. The other forum I am helping has not had a chance to test it yet either.

I took at look at the add-on you posted and it has some issues. It's a bit over aggressive in how it blocks and was going to cause a bunch of side effects that were going to be too disruptive across the site.

 

[Devilmaycare]

Get well, that's the main thing.

Thanks, I think the worst is behind me. Yesterday it only flared up for about an hour late at night and, knock on wood, I've been good so far today. I also had a couple very good signs that it's getting better today that I'll spare you guys from the details.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

This thread really isn't making me miss P&R and want to open it.

Right...why would you want more board engagement and user involvement as an admin.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

No! It sounds like work...

One Crazy Summer (1986) clip with quote No! It sounds like work... Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.

memes.getyarn.io

 

[Covert Rain]

By the way banning does not automatically equal censorship. If someone’s goal is to troll and silence you banning has the opposite effect. It keeps people on the board that otherwise would disengage instead of putting up with the nonsense.

Hate speech, violent speech are examples. Even in our society you are free to say what you want but it doesn’t mean it comes without consequences. It's also not infringing on any liberties because these bans are for repeated bad behavior not because someone expressed an opinion.

 

[oaken1]

I can tell you one thing for sure... If the forum is again re-opened there has to be a curbing on DBJ's posts and thread titles. Every title or discussion is not meant in good faith, it is veiled pot shots at any person who doesnt 100% agree and sets the tone for the entire board.

All it does is incite. Now you can blame my ass for whatever is wrong on this forum but at the end of the day the poor direction of the forum in general is rooted in one person's threads, DBJ.

JF i told you i would lay off and i have ever since i DM'd you on the side. But if anyone thinks its just little old me that is the reason the forum is closed is just masking the obvious--- that the forum is a launching pad for DBJ's hateful rhetoric.

Its been going on for way too long thats my thought on this. Ill continue to lurk and OCCASIONALLY post. The days of me being a lightening rod are over though. Nothing will change until his MO is regulated.

Thats exactly why I requested a perma ban from P&R...inflammatory insulting thread titles demand a counter attack from any man with integrity..and I have not yet graduated from the school of backing down...so staying clear of their space was my best option unless I wanted to spend game day chatting on discord

 

[oaken1]

IMO, the best solution would be to have Left, Center and Right sub-forums open to all, but moderated appropriately. Those who want to preach to the choir can do so in their respective sub-forum. Those who want to engage honestly can do so in the Center sub-reddit.

It may not work, but any other way will just result in an Overton window influenced by bans or posters walking away.

Freaking BRILLIANT!!!!!

Then those of us who are sane and not intellectually, emotionally, or ethically challenged can all go to the CENTER forum and discuss solving the worlds problems.


if someone show an obvious insulting bias in there..they can just be banned from the specific sub forum yet still be aloud in their chosen ech chamber.

 

[oaken1]

By the way banning does not automatically equal censorship. If someone’s goal is to troll and silence you banning has the opposite effect. It keeps people on the board that otherwise would disengage instead of putting up with the nonsense.

Hate speech, violent speech are examples. Even in our society you are free to say what you want but it doesn’t mean it comes without consequences. It's also not infringing on any liberties because these bans are for repeated bad behavior not because someone expressed an opinion.

Great theory...

Until you actually look at it and recognize the fact that often times the people doing the banning are just as biased as the folks you may have been arguing with.

but this entire culture of "I dont like what this person has to say so make them stop"...is also a big part of the problem.

someone above quoted his dad with a saying I have used for over 40 years.
" I may hate what you have to say and how you are saying it. But I will fight and die for your right to continue doing so."


the echo chamber in the ASFN P&R forum rang far and wide. Thats why I stopped going in there so long ago. it was continually getting worse...me being a centrist Dem...even I couldnt stand much of what went on in there..and it will never..CAN never...be fixed without unbiased supervision...and some folks just growing the fruck up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The ban should not be limited to PR but every forum for the duration of the punishment. Everyone here is fully on other boards talking sports or movies or whatever. People would stop a beat before being an idiot

Agree. I never understood someone not losing all board privileges.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

the echo chamber in the ASFN P&R forum rang far and wide. Thats why I stopped going in there so long ago. it was continually getting worse...me being a centrist Dem...even I couldnt stand much of what went on in there..and it will never..CAN never...be fixed without unbiased supervision...and some folks just growing the fruck up.

I don’t think this exists. We are humans. Everyone has biases, no matter how slight.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’ll just add this: the fact that there are folks throughout the political spectrum making suggestions here on how to improve and retain the forum speaks to its value. I know I don’t frequent the board nearly as much with its absence (queue the jokes on how that’s an improvement).

 

[Russ Smith]

Freaking BRILLIANT!!!!!

Then those of us who are sane and not intellectually, emotionally, or ethically challenged can all go to the CENTER forum and discuss solving the worlds problems.


if someone show an obvious insulting bias in there..they can just be banned from the specific sub forum yet still be aloud in their chosen ech chamber.

But again who determines what's left, center and right?

If you live in Alabama nobody in Alabama has an accent, if you live in California people in Alabama have strong southern accents. It's the same with left right and center. The bias will still be there.

Same with the demand for "credible sources" who determines what's credible?

 

[Covert Rain]

Great theory...

Until you actually look at it and recognize the fact that often times the people doing the banning are just as biased as the folks you may have been arguing with.

but this entire culture of "I dont like what this person has to say so make them stop"...is also a big part of the problem.

someone above quoted his dad with a saying I have used for over 40 years.
" I may hate what you have to say and how you are saying it. But I will fight and die for your right to continue doing so."


the echo chamber in the ASFN P&R forum rang far and wide. Thats why I stopped going in there so long ago. it was continually getting worse...me being a centrist Dem...even I couldnt stand much of what went on in there..and it will never..CAN never...be fixed without unbiased supervision...and some folks just growing the fruck up.

That's great in theory but can you give me examples where someone was banned solely based on opinion and not because of behavior? I have been on these forums for 20 years and think the Mods have been pretty consistent here. Every ban I can think of involved bad behavior of some sort. The mods have a tough and thankless job.

In terms of bias, that's human. Everybody has them. There is no such thing as someone without bias. All you can do it make rules and apply them fairly regardless of bias. Echo chambers exist on both sides. I see it daily.

I find it telling that most of the loudest people against bans are the people that are getting banned. If you don't want to get banned just behave on the forum and discuss things like an adult.

P.S. I will say it again. You have the right to say what you want. What you are not entitled to is to say what you want without consequence. That is not a thing.

 

[UncleChris]

Words matter. Saying "How could you be so obtuse" is not as bad as "Well, you have to be one stupid s.o.b. to buy into (whatever)," but neither are appropriate. There is simply no reason to comment in such a way. Howzabout, "I simply disagree.... here's why." Or put very simply, any personal insult, implied or explicit, is simply not allowed.

As to bans.... I support progressive discipline. Warning/one week off/one month off/bye-bye forever, all within a one year period would be a viable option. Obviously, a gross infraction would jump ahead to a worse punishment. Punishments should be site wide. A simple spreadsheet could keep track of it. Mods should rule free of any political bias, one way or another.

Now, I don't claim to be an angel. I've been an arse from time to time and regret it. But this board is important to me personally. Over the past 22 years I've been a part of it, I've learned a ton of stuff from other's postings that I probably wouldn't have otherwise learned. I like to think I've posted a thing or two that helped others, too.

And finally, a disagreement with a mod should be handled calmly, fairly and VIA PM! You PM a mod and call him a stupid clown, you're going down. And Mods need to be as unbiased in decisions as possible.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images attach

90% of P&R

Too funny. That's been in my profile (in Latin) for many years.

 

[Covert Rain]

Too funny. That's been in my profile (in Latin) for many years.

That reminds me of one of my favorites:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

.

Puts too much power in bad actors who can purposefully ruin it for everyone.

that's why i said repeat bad actors get the boot - but p&r is it's own beast in general and runs hot sometimes - if folks are getting banned left and right i don't see nothing wrong witha 24 hour pause - let things cool down and let's poster know the limits are approaching

 

[Rivercard]

The ban should not be limited to PR but every forum for the duration of the punishment. Everyone here is fully on other boards talking sports or movies or whatever. People would stop a beat before being an idiot

Agree 100% on this.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This thread really isn't making me miss P&R and want to open it.

Quick update, no decision has been made yet. I'm looking to get it decided upon something this week. Things have been delayed a bit due to my health. I've had a nasty stomach issue since the fourth that's had me down. I've been feeling better the last two days and hopefully I'm good to go from it.

FYI, if we do open it, the rules are going to be much tighter. It'll basically be the case of act like adults or there will be consequences. We can't have it being as bad as it was.

Glad your doing better. And I think a tighter, more cordial rules structure is required at this point too.

Right...why would you want more board engagement and user involvement as an admin.

Jeeez.....

By the way banning does not automatically equal censorship. If someone’s PERCIEVED goal is to troll and silence you banning has the opposite effect. It keeps people on the board that otherwise would disengage instead of putting up with the nonsense.

Hate speech, violent speech are examples. Even in our society you are free to say what you want but it doesn’t mean it comes without consequences. It's also not infringing on any liberties because these bans are for repeated bad behavior not because someone expressed an opinion.

I think you need to add the above word to your first statement for it to be factual. It's almost impossible to find proof of someone admitting that they are a troll. That's just what you think they are doing unless it's egregious IMO.

I will continue to contend that if you put someone on ignore, it says more about your lack self control than anything they actually said. And denying that reality lacks integrity and personal accountability. The excuse of "I put them on ignore because they......" is about as weak an excuse as there is.

I would never even contemplate using the ignore feature. Not only would it impact my viewing in the other forums (Suns, Cards, EE, etc), but also because this is a public forum that you personally choose to interact with. No one forces anyone to go in to P&R and no one forces anyone to reply to a specific post.

If you want that level of curation..... go form a private Facebook group or something but.... STAY HERE and do what Oaken or PDXChris did. Take accountability for yourself and do a self-ban from the P&R Forum. A private Facebook forum will be the most pillowy soft insular bubble I can think of. Unfortunately..... the real world (and the this site) is not like that. And this forum wasn't designed to accommodate a position like that. Nor should the Mods be expected to cater to someone's feelings in a situation like the ones we are discussing.

Keep it open. Add strict rules, boundaries, and limitations, and have the people who choose to venture in remain respectful, courteous and polite. Oh... and remove emoji reactions from posts to encourage more people to contribute.

 

[Covert Rain]

Glad your doing better. And I think a tighter, more cordial rules structure is required at this point too.




Jeeez.....




I think you need to add the above word to your first statement for it to be factual. It's almost impossible to find proof of someone admitting that they are a troll. That's just what you think they are doing unless it's egregious IMO.

I will continue to contend that if you put someone on ignore, it says more about your lack self control than anything they actually said. And denying that reality lacks integrity and personal accountability. The excuse of "I put them on ignore because they......" is about as weak an excuse as there is.

I would never even contemplate using the ignore feature. Not only would it impact my viewing in the other forums (Suns, Cards, EE, etc), but also because this is a public forum that you personally choose to interact with. No one forces anyone to go in to P&R and no one forces anyone to reply to a specific post.

If you want that level of curation..... go form a private Facebook group or something but.... STAY HERE and do what Oaken or PDXChris did. Take accountability for yourself and do a self-ban from the P&R Forum. A private Facebook forum will be the most pillowy soft insular bubble I can think of. Unfortunately..... the real world (and the this site) is not like that. And this forum wasn't designed to accommodate a position like that. Nor should the Mods be expected to cater to someone's feelings in a situation like the ones we are discussing.

Keep it open. Add strict rules, boundaries, and limitations, and have the people who choose to venture in remain respectful, courteous and polite. Oh... and remove emoji reactions from posts to encourage more people to contribute.

I think it's pretty obvious when someone is trolling, using hateful speech or violent rhetoric. If someone goes out of their way to constantly target your posts? That is not perception. You act like people can't tell the difference. So, no I don't need to use "Perception" to make that statement factual. I also trust the mods to know the difference just like I can. It's not rocket science.

Also, if you put someone on ignore you want to blame the person using the feature to get away from the bad behavior but not the person exhibiting the bad behavior. Nobody forces the bad actors to be tools either. Some people simply don't want to deal with the negativity and dishonest engagement. Blaming those people who use it for those reasons is horse manure.

If you want no accountability, now that is what Facebook is for. You can force your people on your feed to deal with the dribble and the venom. This isn't a public square. It's a community you choose to join and follow the rules. You know that when you sign up.

Not once did I mention mods curating people's feelings. I specifically have been focused on bad behavior.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Glad your doing better. And I think a tighter, more cordial rules structure is required at this point too.




Jeeez.....




I think you need to add the above word to your first statement for it to be factual. It's almost impossible to find proof of someone admitting that they are a troll. That's just what you think they are doing unless it's egregious IMO.

I will continue to contend that if you put someone on ignore, it says more about your lack self control than anything they actually said. And denying that reality lacks integrity and personal accountability. The excuse of "I put them on ignore because they......" is about as weak an excuse as there is.

I would never even contemplate using the ignore feature. Not only would it impact my viewing in the other forums (Suns, Cards, EE, etc), but also because this is a public forum that you personally choose to interact with. No one forces anyone to go in to P&R and no one forces anyone to reply to a specific post.

If you want that level of curation..... go form a private Facebook group or something but.... STAY HERE and do what Oaken or PDXChris did. Take accountability for yourself and do a self-ban from the P&R Forum. A private Facebook forum will be the most pillowy soft insular bubble I can think of. Unfortunately..... the real world (and the this site) is not like that. And this forum wasn't designed to accommodate a position like that. Nor should the Mods be expected to cater to someone's feelings in a situation like the ones we are discussing.

Keep it open. Add strict rules, boundaries, and limitations, and have the people who choose to venture in remain respectful, courteous and polite. Oh... and remove emoji reactions from posts to encourage more people to contribute.

Funny because I think it’s unmanly to want rules that require others to read what you want to say if they don’t want to hear it. I mean, if what you have to say, or how you say it, isn’t convincing or interesting, why force someone to see it? Hence the value of ignore.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

I can promise you, the moderators want you to use the ignore function rather than bicker.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Funny because I think it’s unmanly to want rules that require others to read what you want to say if they don’t want to hear it. I mean, if what you have to say, or how you say it, isn’t convincing or interesting, why force someone to see it? Hence the value of ignore.

You, as a man, have the choice to walk away. You, as a man, have a choice to not reply. Ignoring is not the same...... And no one is requiring you to read it, or respond for that matter. You are choosing to have a bot do it for you.

When you place someone on ignore, the reply exists. You are just choosing to not allow yourself to be challenged by ideas that differ from your own personal world view. It is blaming others for your lack of self control. You can slice the almond as thin as you want but the fact remains that it is much easier from a psychological perspective to blame others for your actions and choices than it is to deny the reality that you may have something to address within yourself.

A real man in this scenario would do what PDX & Oaken did. They owned their choices and I respect that.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I can promise you, the moderators want you to use the ignore function rather than bicker.

Oh.... I agree with this completely.

It's the easiest way to stop some of the madness that occurs in the forum and thus, makes their jobs easier. My contention is that it hurts everyone's experience and everyone's ability to connect with differing ideas and perspectives.