OT: Kyler Murray Debacle Thread

[some dumb guy]

Ok but then this devolves into a chicken or the egg argument. Who elevates what and how much. Do I think Darnold puts up significantly worse stats with Jamar Chase, Tee Higgins, Iosivas, Gesicki, and Chase Brown...not really. Those are also a really good group of players. Some, me, would argue that it is a more talented group or at least it is very close.

I ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon.....I guess we'll wait and see LOL

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm lost. I thought we were discussing the talent AROUND the QB? The reason Cincy has more TD's per game is Burrow is MUCH better than Darnold.

If you put Burrow on Minnesota their offensive stats would jump markedly IMO, and Cincy's would fall off with Darnold.

They're VERY similar in terms of personnel around the QB, the difference is one QB is way better than the other

I was told by 602 that I needed to factor in TDs because per players stats were not enough. Only reason it was added.

This was the exact quote.
"You always are in the yards kick. It is quite funny. No mention of TDs when discussing these guys."

 

[Russ Smith]

I was told by 602 that I needed to factor in TDs because per players stats were not enough. Only reason it was added.

Gotcha sorry as I said I'm lost

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

Don’t tell him that it blows up his slanted narrative that he refuses to even acknowledge.

you're confusing slanted narratives with main narratives - it's okay though

 

[Chopper0080]

Gotcha sorry as I said I'm lost

It's understandable when confronted with vibes based rankings.

 

[football karma]

more analytics fun for QBs

the good news:

Kyler at #13 overall. Teams can win and go to the playoffs with that level of QB play.

The bad / interesting: his EPA in the first three quarters is good, and then goes down (17th overall) in the fourth. Not terrible, but not good. Its not fatal and other higher rated QBs have this too (Goff, Burrow

I think if you combine this with the progression chart -- the narrative emerges: by Q4, the defense has seen enough of the game plan to take away the 1st read. This puts Kyler way more often in checkdown or scramble mode.

the other narrative is this: when winning in Q4 -- the team runs or throws short. When losing in Q4 and no threat of a running game, Petzings offense doesnt have easy answers.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[602 Native]

I was told by 602 that I needed to factor in TDs because per players stats were not enough. Only reason it was added.

This was the exact quote.
"You always are in the yards kick. It is quite funny. No mention of TDs when discussing these guys."

Nothing in that post helps your cause but that is on brand.

 

[602 Native]

I added TDs just for you. If you want to generate some comprehensive statistical breakdown to prove me wrong, go ahead. Do the work. To this point, my "selective stats" seem to be lapping your vibe based ranking system.

Or you just used the last 2 years instead of total stats. Both of which Hock got hurt in.

You aren't better than that so its typical.

LOL

 

[Chopper0080]

Or you just used the last 2 years instead of total stats. Both of which Hock got hurt in.

You aren't better than that so its typical.

LOL

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[602 Native]

You must be registered for see images attach

If only this were true.

 

[football karma]

this seems relevant here:

1. opposing defenses didnt fear anyone on the Cards running past them
2. Cardinal receivers didnt get open regularly

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Shane]

this seems relevant here:

1. opposing defenses didnt fear anyone on the Cards running past them
2. Cardinal receivers didnt get open regularly

You must be registered for see images attach

So this is telling me that Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins arent getting seperation either? Seems legit!

 

[DaHilg]

So this is telling me that Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins arent getting seperation either? Seems legit!

Valid point now I’m confused

 

[BritCard]

this seems relevant here:

1. opposing defenses didnt fear anyone on the Cards running past them
2. Cardinal receivers didnt get open regularly

You must be registered for see images attach

Anything that has us next to the Bengals and Saints and Broncos at the other end isn't a comment on receiver ability.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

this seems relevant here:

1. opposing defenses didnt fear anyone on the Cards running past them
2. Cardinal receivers didnt get open regularly

You must be registered for see images attach

You can plot literally any two variables, that doesn't mean there is a meaningful relationship between them.

 

[BritCard]

It's much easier to build a talented roster around a mid player than it is to draft an upgrade from mid to elite at one position. If only because there are many, many more avenues to achieve the former and but one for the latter.

Teams don't upgrade their QB position from mid to elite every year. It's just that the jump from Desmond Ridder to Kirk Cousins is real big.

Those many other options have just as much chance of failing as the one.

What's the average hit rate on an FA signing over $10m? 1 in 3 maybe? And the draft is what? 1 in 6? More or less depending on round.

So we'd have to bring in roughly 15 new players between FA and the draft to be reasonably assured of getting 3-4 quality starters. That's a lot of money wasted.

Whereas a good QB will elevate the team and you need to invest less around him to make up for his shortcomings.

This franchise, and the fanbase, is doing everything it possibly can to ignore the fact we need to move on. The longer we do the worse it gets. I agree it's not this year, the draft sucks, so Kyler gets another chance, but if the pattern continues it's time for him to go.

Personally, as the QB market is so bare this year and there are several desperate teams I'd move him while his value is high and bring in Tannehill, Wilson, Jimmy G, Malik Willis, Fields, Mac Jones or Pickett for a year.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Personally, as the QB market is so bare this year and there are several desperate teams I'd move him while his value is high and bring in Tannehill, Wilson, Jimmy G, Malik Willis, Fields, Mac Jones or Pickett for a year.

I bet Gannon would be super excited about firing Kenny Pickett out there for 17 games in 2025!

Conner, McBride and some of the other players would love it too!

 

[602 Native]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[daves]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Hard to miss the fact that he felt it necessary to include the disclaimer, "when he's playing at a high level".

 

[TheCardFan]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

“One thing about Kyler (Murray) is he knows how to win…when he’s playing at a high level I think he’s a top 5 QB in the NFL.”

But...he is 36-45 as a starter and only one playoff appearance (0-1).

He may "know" how but he doesn't actually do it at an elite level.

 

[602 Native]

Hard to miss the fact that he felt it necessary to include the disclaimer, "when he's playing at a high level".

Zero issue with him saying that.
I actually like that he said it.

“One thing about Kyler (Murray) is he knows how to win…when he’s playing at a high level I think he’s a top 5 QB in the NFL.”

But...he is 36-45 as a starter and only one playoff appearance (0-1).

He may "know" how but he doesn't actually do it at an elite level.

Never had an elite team around him though.

His teams have been mostly bad to very good for a single season.

I still think we can playoff games with K1.

 

[kerouac9]

Zero issue with him saying that.
I actually like that he said it.



Never had an elite team around him though.

His teams have been mostly bad to very good for a single season.

I still think we can playoff games with K1.

What team in 2024 do you think Kyler could trade players with the current starter and create equal or better results? This is an honest question; I don't believe there's such a thing as an "elite" team today. Every team is incomplete; elite quarterbacks elevate the talent around them.

 

[some dumb guy]

OMG. I'm retired and can't keep up with all the posts in this thread. Every time I log on there's another 4 pages.
This has turned into Groundhog Day featuring Archie Bunker debating Archie Bunker.

Come on August............what does it take to get suspended until fall???

 

[Stout]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

When asked the follow-up question of how many games Kyler has won to clinch a playoff berth or win a playoff game, he began to stutter lol

 

[Stout]

Zero issue with him saying that.
I actually like that he said it.



Never had an elite team around him though.

His teams have been mostly bad to very good for a single season.

I still think we can playoff games with K1.

Right. QBs need an elite team to even win a playoff game. Riiight.