Suns @ Heat Monday game thread 11-14-2022

[Dback Jon]

We didn’t really drive the ball much. Book, who usually drives our FTAs was pretty relegated to the outside due to impressive defense by what’s his name. And per usual Ayton played soft except for a short burst where he was angered by something, but then went limp again thereafter.

None of that explains the extreme disparity. The Heat committed plenty of fouls. The Suns did drive. They didn't get the same calls the Heat did.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was thinking about tanking, which I am arguably hardcore against, and how so far Ayton hasn't been worth throwing away the franchise's honor and dignity , which is what the Suns did for at least several years. No, Luka Doncic wouldn't have clearly been worth that either, because so far he has not led the Mavericks near a championship.

I was going to say that in order to tempt me to retroactively accept the tank, Ayton would now have to how signs of becoming as great as Giannis Antetokuonmpo. Then I made a realization that dismayed me: Antetokunmpo wasn't drafted until the 15th pick of his draft! The Suns could easily have drafted him without tanking! And they wasted the pick on Alex Len. I suppose I'm the last to notice this, but it's still the same realization.

I have a problem with certain kinds of tanking. Winning is the goal, but every organization has to be able to make strategic decisions that might hamper your short term goals of winning. So, for example, if they play the young guys in order to find out what they are and to develop them, great. If they trade away veterans for picks or young talent that needs to be developed, again, great. But if they sit the better players solely to lose games, like Dallas did a few years ago, I'm against that.

And I don't agree with your statement that we "threw away the franchise's dignity and honor" for "several years". I think you're selling us short there, we had little dignity or honor to lose and we probably lost more games to being tremendously incompetent than we did to tanking.

And much of our tanking came after playoffs were out of our reach. I never consider late season "rest the vets, play the kids" as actual tanking. It's been done long before it had any real ties to the draft tanking we've seen the past decade or so. We had one full season of tanking that bothered me but I'm okay with the rest of it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

None of that explains the extreme disparity. The Heat committed plenty of fouls. The Suns did drive. They didn't get the same calls the Heat did.

Yeah no. I read the game thread after the game and couldn’t believe how much whining there was about the refs. We are not a team that draws contact.

Book is our best at it but he has difficult drawing fouls against premier defenders like butler.

Ayton’s game is literally geared to avoid contact.

Bridges offensive game is either 3 pointers or the lean back pull up jumper.

Biz and landale aren’t legit offensive players in the paint.

Payne is the only player who drives and I think the refs don’t like bailing him out if they think he’s outta control.

I don’t know when y’all are going to recognize - we are not a team that draws fouls.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah no. I read the game thread after the game and couldn’t believe how much whining there was about the refs. We are not a team that draws contact.

Book is our best at it but he has difficult drawing fouls against premier defenders like butler.

Ayton’s game is literally geared to avoid contact.

Bridges offensive game is either 3 pointers or the lean back pull up jumper.

Biz and landale aren’t legit offensive players in the paint.

Payne is the only player who drives and I think the refs don’t like bailing him out if they think he’s outta control.

I don’t know when y’all are going to recognize - we are not a team that draws fouls.

You have valid points but there is NO way in todays NBA that a team as defensive as the Miami Heat would commit virtually no fouls in an NBA game. It’s literally impossible.

You can explain it away all you want by slamming our own team, like fans are wont to do, but there was definitely something wrong with the officiating last night.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

25-4 free throw difference?

Why the hell is Monty just sitting on his ass. He needs to get thrown out of a game like this. He never stands up for his guys

The heat had a single team foul in the first half.

This game is solely at the feet of the officiating

 

[Mainstreet]

Monty had to use a challenge or Booker and the Suns would have had even more fouls. The officiating was beyond bad.

 

[Dr dumas]

I agree that the Suns army as physical as other teams and is why we always get less trips to the line. I also don’t like complaining about the refs, but last night the disparity was awful. And the refs love rewarding guys like Bam that just throw their arms around and fall to the ground on every play..

 

[nashman]

We didn’t really drive the ball much. Book, who usually drives our FTAs was pretty relegated to the outside due to impressive defense by what’s his name. And per usual Ayton played soft except for a short burst where he was angered by something, but then went limp again thereafter.

There were many fouls not called and a ton of ticky tack crap called on us! It’s impossible for them to play as aggressively as they did and got one foul in an entire first half! We were late in the third before shooting our second FT of the game that’s freaking nonsense!

 

[Superbone]

There's no way Butler guards Book that aggressively and only ends up with three fouls.

 

[GatorAZ]

I respect Monty for being respectable and never losing it but he needs to start insufferably whining like the 29 other coaches or this will continue happening. Refs are human and know which coaches go hard and soft on them. I hate when coaches do it but it doesn’t matter what I think it only matters what his player’s think.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You have valid points but there is NO way in todays NBA that a team as defensive as the Miami Heat would commit virtually no fouls in an NBA game. It’s literally impossible.

You can explain it away all you want by slamming our own team, like fans are wont to do, but there was definitely something wrong with the officiating last night.

Well it’s obviously not “literally” impossible as it literally happened.

And I’m not slamming our team. I’m just realistic about who they are. I can also get caught up in the moment when watching a game, but taking a step back from the emotion of each play o don’t find it difficult to recall who we are and how we play because there’s just no rational thought behind the nba seeking to screw the suns for 50+ years.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree that the Suns army as physical as other teams and is why we always get less trips to the line. I also don’t like complaining about the refs, but last night the disparity was awful. And the refs love rewarding guys like Bam that just throw their arms around and fall to the ground on every play..

So guys like . . . Paul and crowder. Our team has them too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There were many fouls not called and a ton of ticky tack crap called on us! It’s impossible for them to play as aggressively as they did and got one foul in an entire first half! We were late in the third before shooting our second FT of the game that’s freaking nonsense!

Okay, the refs, the nba, everyone is out to get the suns. What do you want to be the case as this is somewhat a recurring theme?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There's no way Butler guards Book that aggressively and only ends up with three fouls.

Because no way can an elite defender guard elite offensive players and only have 3 fouls, right? Someone like bridges who averages 2 fouls per game. Wait, wut?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I respect Monty for being respectable and never losing it but he needs to start insufferably whining like the 29 other coaches or this will continue happening. Refs are human and know which coaches go hard and soft on them. I hate when coaches do it but it doesn’t matter what I think it only matters what his player’s think.

This I agree with. Regardless of how our team plays, monty has to play the gamesmanship better.

 

[Chaplin]

Okay, the refs, the nba, everyone is out to get the suns. What do you want to be the case as this is somewhat a recurring theme?

So combatting one extreme means that we believe in the opposite extreme? Come on Ouchie.

 

[Yuma]

Suns 4 FT attempts and 2 FT makes were the FEWEST in NBA HISTORY which is now in their 77th season!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Suns 4 FT attempts and 2 FT makes were the FEWEST in NBA HISTORY which is now in their 77th season!

Maybe the makes, but not the attempts. This clearly shows lakers had a game with 1 and Atlanta with 3. And in 2021 there were three teams with 4 in a single game (including the suns, which evidences this isn’t exactly a “literal impossibility” for this team).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So combatting one extreme means that we believe in the opposite extreme? Come on Ouchie.

No, I’m just asking what do you think was the case? Do the refs sometimes make some bad calls? Sure. Are there some egregious games? Yup. But just basing it off the number of fouls isn’t a great indicator. I can think of many more games than this one where I thought the officiating was much much more worse. I didn’t really think this was that bad.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Heck there’s even a finals game where the NBAs darlings, the lakers, had 5 FTAs to the sixers 32 FTAs. It happens.

 

[Yuma]

Maybe the makes, but not the attempts. This clearly shows lakers had a game with 1 and Atlanta with 3. And in 2021 there were three teams with 4 in a single game (including the suns, which evidences this isn’t exactly a “literal impossibility” for this team).

Weird, it was NBA.com for a regular season game.

 

[Chaplin]

Heck there’s even a finals game where the NBAs darlings, the lakers, had 5 FTAs to the sixers 32 FTAs. It happens.

Sorry, no, it just doesn't "happen." I'm not saying there is a conspiracy because there isn't. I'm saying that the referring is so poor that you saw this discrepancy. And it's not because the Suns are too "soft" it's because the officials are just bad at their jobs. Period.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sorry, no, it just doesn't "happen." I'm not saying there is a conspiracy because there isn't. I'm saying that the referring is so poor that you saw this discrepancy. And it's not because the Suns are too "soft" it's because the officials are just bad at their jobs. Period.

This squads rankings in FTAs/game over the last three seasons:

2022 - 28th in league (20.4/game)
2021 - 29th in league (19.8/game)
2020 - 29th in league (18.9/game)

It is no shock their worst is 4 in a game.

 

[Hoop Head]

Miami is a tough team, regardless of how the game is officiated. It was a long shot to beat them without CP3 and Cam Johnson. The game was more competitive than anyone envisioned. That's a good thing. We're still early in the season and while a loss hurts it shouldn't be something anyone lingers on.

 

[Yuma]

Sorry, no, it just doesn't "happen." I'm not saying there is a conspiracy because there isn't. I'm saying that the referring is so poor that you saw this discrepancy. And it's not because the Suns are too "soft" it's because the officials are just bad at their jobs. Period.

It's certain teams. When Detroit was winning their Championships they literally beat on teams, and the refs refereed to allow them to play that way because they were aggressive. That's BS. It's a problem with the league office not policing their product. Some teams get to foul and get away with it if they are aggressive. The Suns don't get the same respect because we play to get to open spots and shoot instead of purposefully banging into people. The Suns still get fouled, it just doesn't look the same since bodies aren't flying.