Deandre Ayton discussion

[CardsSunsDbacks]

One of the biggest myths that you see NBA fans and NBA media personalities pass off as fact, is that players pretty much max out their ability in their mid 20s. It's just not true and there are numerous examples of players getting significantly better all the way to about year 30.

Exactly and it's the same for Booker. Until you start to decline physically you can simply continue to become better and better. Ayton and Booker will likely be far better players 5 years from now than they are today and they are both pretty darn good today.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Exactly and it's the same for Booker. Until you start to decline physically you can simply continue to become better and better. Ayton and Booker will likely be far better players 5 years from now than they are today and they are both pretty darn good today.

True, the difference being that Booker appears to be maximizing his talent, whereas Ayton only appears to be scratching the surface.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Exactly and it's the same for Booker. Until you start to decline physically you can simply continue to become better and better. Ayton and Booker will likely be far better players 5 years from now than they are today and they are both pretty darn good today.

People forget that it took Kobe years to get to his prime. Booker isn't quite there yet; for him I would like for him to check his attitude a bit more, but to be fair, he does take a lot of punishment that other star players get fouls for.

Ayton still needs to learn to be more physical.

 

[Krangodnzr]

True, the difference being that Booker appears to be maximizing his talent, whereas Ayton only appears to be scratching the surface.

I agree about Ayton, but the bright side is that he has gotten a lot better.

I don't think it's controversial to say that Ayton is probably the best defensive big man the Suns have maybe ever had. And his offensive game is quite good. Where he needs to get better is at establishing better position in the low post, don't bring the ball down, and just be more physical overall. He has already improved a bit in a lot of these aspects so I'm hopefully that in a year or two, Ayton will be a guy that you can game plan a lot of low post touches for.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

People forget that it took Kobe years to get to his prime. Booker isn't quite there yet; for him I would like for him to check his attitude a bit more, but to be fair, he does take a lot of punishment that other star players get fouls for.

Ayton still needs to learn to be more physical.

I'd like to see Ayton pack on about 10 more pounds of muscle and then be able to be more stout, when banging down low under the basket...and also just be a tree trunk and take charges.

 

[Covert Rain]

Ayton still ***** at beating people for position in the low post. You'll see much smaller guys that he should be able to move with ease beating him for position.

I think we all just need to be PATIENT with him. He has shown that he is capable of getting better and he is still really young.

One of the biggest myths that you see NBA fans and NBA media personalities pass off as fact, is that players pretty much max out their ability in their mid 20s. It's just not true and there are numerous examples of players getting significantly better all the way to about year 30. I expect that this playoff run is going to push Ayton to get even better since he has a taste of what he can be. This is especially true if Chris Paul sticks around for a few more years, which I expect to happen.

I think you mean "sometimes". Ayton's numbers are some of the best for a big man in playoff history. They have repeated that on the telecast. They had a graphic that showed big men with X number of rebounds and points per game and there was only a handful of big men who have done what he has done. We all know he can get better and needs to. I am not worried about his positioning at all. I think if he can create his own shot that is the next level for him. The other stuff he will learn through experience.

 

[AzStevenCal]

One of the biggest myths that you see NBA fans and NBA media personalities pass off as fact, is that players pretty much max out their ability in their mid 20s. It's just not true and there are numerous examples of players getting significantly better all the way to about year 30. I expect that this playoff run is going to push Ayton to get even better since he has a taste of what he can be. This is especially true if Chris Paul sticks around for a few more years, which I expect to happen.

I think the idea is that players tend to hit their physical peak in the 25 to 27 range with their actual game peaking between 28 and 30. I'm not sure how they do it but I suspect one of the reasons they usually place 25 or so as the peak year is because so many players are out of the NBA by the time they're 28 so it skews the studies. But if you're talking about star players the peak tends to be higher. For example, the average age for players on the All NBA teams is 28.

I also think the over 28 or over 30 decline is less precipitous than many suggest. The averages probably work out but I think it's important to separate out the players that have escaped major injuries. If you have a strong player that's been mostly healthy for his career, I wouldn't be surprised to see them raising their overall game even into their early 30's.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'd like to see Ayton pack on about 10 more pounds of muscle and then be able to be more stout, when banging down low under the basket...and also just be a tree trunk and take charges.

No way. One of the reasons Ayton is able to stay on the floor is his mobility. I do not want anything to slow him down.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Ayton still ***** at beating people for position in the low post. You'll see much smaller guys that he should be able to move with ease beating him for position.

I think we all just need to be PATIENT with him. He has shown that he is capable of getting better and he is still really young.

One of the biggest myths that you see NBA fans and NBA media personalities pass off as fact, is that players pretty much max out their ability in their mid 20s. It's just not true and there are numerous examples of players getting significantly better all the way to about year 30. I expect that this playoff run is going to push Ayton to get even better since he has a taste of what he can be. This is especially true if Chris Paul sticks around for a few more years, which I expect to happen.

The thing with Ayton is he just doesn't have a great feel from the game. Very athletic, great touch but you can tell he's not naturally putting things together on instinct like guys who have been playing AAU games 3x per day since they were in third grade. This is kind of common with guys who got a late start to the game. He'll get better but expecting him to be Brow or Jokic isn't reasonable.

And yes - Book should flourish until he's at least 32-33. His game isn't predicated on athleticism or burst like a Westbrook. His shotmaking and playmaking in theory will only get better.

 

[Covert Rain]

In the regular season, Ayton became one of six players in the NBA history to rank in the top 20 in shooting percentage (a career-high 62.6%), rebounds (10.5) and blocks (1.2).

In the playoffs, Ayton became the first player in 38 years to shoot at least 50% in his first 14 career playoff games (70.9%).

Became the 10th player in 21 years to record at least nine double-doubles in their first 14 career playoff games.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton has become one of my favorite players to watch in the post season. Even if he has a subpar (for his new postseason expectations) game or a bad play which causes an outburst from me he’s been awesome to watch grow. His confidence is soaring. And we will need it in the next round against two teams with some size. But for the first time in a long time I’m not fearful of an opponents size. That speaks volumes.

 

[Finito]

I want to see him battle a healthy and motivated Giannis in the paint

giannis doesn’t play in the paint that’s one of his biggest drawbacks he’s a big guy who plays like a little guy.

they give him the ball at the top of the key and let him drive if you can build a wall you can pretty much stop him

 

[Finito]

Ayton needs to develop post moves that’s his next big step. Remember when he first came into the league the knock on him was he didn’t play any defense now 3 years later you can say he’s the best defensive big man in the NBA and I don’t think that would be a stretch.

he seems like he really wants to get better and is coachable it’s just the matter of having the right people around to bring it out and that def was Igor or Jay Triano

 

[Covert Rain]

giannis doesn’t play in the paint that’s one of his biggest drawbacks he’s a big guy who plays like a little guy.

they give him the ball at the top of the key and let him drive if you can build a wall you can pretty much stop him

What?!?! The vast majority of his shots are in the paint. Have you been watching him play? He is not a back to your basket guy like a big man but he drives constantly and takes most of his shots from the paint. Unlike most big men he doesn't need to have a traditional back to your basket game because nobody can stop the guy when he drives. I do agree though if you want to beat Giannis you have to make him take a bunch of threes and jumpers. Easier said than done. Nobody has been able to do that consistently.

Giannis Antetokounmpo Shot Chart 2021 | StatMuse

Giannis Antetokounmpo shot 56.9% (626/1100) overall and 30.3% (67/221) from three in 60 games in 2020-21. (Shot Chart)

www.statmuse.com

 

[Vacard]

If we had a true inside-outside game then we would’ve swept the Clips. I hope he gets to Embiid/Jokic status and create his own shot

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think you mean "sometimes". Ayton's numbers are some of the best for a big man in playoff history. They have repeated that on the telecast. They had a graphic that showed big men with X number of rebounds and points per game and there was only a handful of big men who have done what he has done. We all know he can get better and needs to. I am not worried about his positioning at all. I think if he can create his own shot that is the next level for him. The other stuff he will learn through experience.

Numbers don't matter when I watched those big men and they were better.

Go watch Shaq or any of the others that Ayton is being compared to and you will see the difference. Ayton is definitively NOT good at getting position. I watched Pat Bev out positioning him....that shouldn't really happen.

 

[Covert Rain]

Numbers don't matter when I watched those big men and they were better.

Go watch Shaq or any of the others that Ayton is being compared to and you will see the difference. Ayton is definitively NOT good at getting position. I watched Pat Bev out positioning him....that shouldn't really happen.

As I said...I think you mean sometimes. What do you mean those numbers don't mean anything?!? That makes zero sense. You can't get those numbers unless you have position. Nobody hands you those rebounds. Only a handful of big men have done what he has done. STOP.

Nobody is saying he shouldn't improve. He should. The fact that he is doing what he is doing at 24 is undeniable.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think the idea is that players tend to hit their physical peak in the 25 to 27 range with their actual game peaking between 28 and 30. I'm not sure how they do it but I suspect one of the reasons they usually place 25 or so as the peak year is because so many players are out of the NBA by the time they're 28 so it skews the studies. But if you're talking about star players the peak tends to be higher. For example, the average age for players on the All NBA teams is 28.

I also think the over 28 or over 30 decline is less precipitous than many suggest. The averages probably work out but I think it's important to separate out the players that have escaped major injuries. If you have a strong player that's been mostly healthy for his career, I wouldn't be surprised to see them raising their overall game even into their early 30's.

It's also a bias that taints the draft. I don't know how many times we've seen "older" players come out who are better than the younger players just because people are projecting the growth for the younger guys. It's why Mikal Bridges went later when he was clearly one of the best players in his draft class.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The thing with Ayton is he just doesn't have a great feel from the game. Very athletic, great touch but you can tell he's not naturally putting things together on instinct like guys who have been playing AAU games 3x per day since they were in third grade. This is kind of common with guys who got a late start to the game. He'll get better but expecting him to be Brow or Jokic isn't reasonable.

And yes - Book should flourish until he's at least 32-33. His game isn't predicated on athleticism or burst like a Westbrook. His shotmaking and playmaking in theory will only get better.

I tend to think that Ayton is still legitimately learning how to play basketball. So many of his peers in the NBA have been playing since they were 6 or 7 years old. By the time Ayton started, his peers were much more developed. It also didn't help that U of A played him at PF...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Ayton has become one of my favorite players to watch in the post season. Even if he has a subpar (for his new postseason expectations) game or a bad play which causes an outburst from me he’s been awesome to watch grow. His confidence is soaring. And we will need it in the next round against two teams with some size. But for the first time in a long time I’m not fearful of an opponents size. That speaks volumes.

Totally agree, and I find myself wondering how much more effective the Suns would be if they tried to consistently get him involved instead of Booker chucking dumb shots up....

Outside of AD, I haven't worried about other teams bigs. Sure Jokic got his points and rebounds, but he did so at a pathetic efficiency rate.

 

[Mainstreet]

I tend to think that Ayton is still legitimately learning how to play basketball. So many of his peers in the NBA have been playing since they were 6 or 7 years old. By the time Ayton started, his peers were much more developed. It also didn't help that U of A played him at PF...

This is where I am on Ayton... he is still learning the game.

The one question I had about Ayton is does he want it bad enough. I think that question has been answered. He wants to be that dominant player we all want him to be.

Now I think he needs to learn how to better post up down low. It should come.

 

[Krangodnzr]

This is where I am on Ayton... he is still learning the game.

The one question I had about Ayton is does he want it bad enough. I think that question has been answered. He wants to be that dominant player we all want him to be.

Now I think he needs to learn how to better post up down low. It should come.

I think wanting to vs. knowing how to is what Ayton is learning from Paul. Players like Ayton come into the NBA generally having NO understanding on what it takes to be a great player. Ayton is learning that. I'm legitimately nearly as excited about Ayton as I am about Kyler Murray. Pretty cool era of Phoenix sports right now, when the two most major teams have great young building blocks that could be franchise cornerstones for the next decade.

 

[Finito]

What?!?! The vast majority of his shots are in the paint. Have you been watching him play? He is not a back to your basket guy like a big man but he drives constantly and takes most of his shots from the paint. Unlike most big men he doesn't need to have a traditional back to your basket game because nobody can stop the guy when he drives. I do agree though if you want to beat Giannis you have to make him take a bunch of threes and jumpers. Easier said than done. Nobody has been able to do that consistently.

Giannis Antetokounmpo Shot Chart 2021 | StatMuse

Giannis Antetokounmpo shot 56.9% (626/1100) overall and 30.3% (67/221) from three in 60 games in 2020-21. (Shot Chart)

www.statmuse.com

you must not be the one watching him because he’s been stopped pretty much every single year in the playoffs.

I understand his shots come in the paint he’s essentially a slasher. He won’t be playing Ayton in the paint Lopez will. Giannis never plays anyone in the paint

 

[Covert Rain]

you must not be the one watching him because he’s been stopped pretty much every single year in the playoffs.

I understand his shots come in the paint he’s essentially a slasher. He won’t be playing Ayton in the paint Lopez will. Giannis never plays anyone in the paint

His numbers prove you wrong unless you are saying that you can get timely stops against him. That's something else. He dominates in that area. Check out his shot charts and field goals made. Up until he got hurt nobody has shut him down this playoffs consistently in the paint.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Numbers don't matter when I watched those big men and they were better.

Go watch Shaq or any of the others that Ayton is being compared to and you will see the difference. Ayton is definitively NOT good at getting position. I watched Pat Bev out positioning him....that shouldn't really happen.

Mann did as well. Ayton shouldn’t have to shoot jump hooks over those guys. He should be able to turn over his shoulder and drop the ball in.