Deandre Ayton discussion

[AzStevenCal]

I would be shocked if any GM in the NBA would think about Booker over Luka, let alone Ayton over Luka.

Well, they wouldn't but I suspect that would still be the case even if every GM agreed that Luka was the 3rd best from that trio of names. His financial value to the franchise is probably approaching prime age Yao Ming territory. I can't see anyone turning their back on him when you consider his international popularity and the revenues the Mavericks derive from his presence.

I think it's going to be a little tougher to build around Luka than it would be Booker or Ayton but he's next level when compared to those guys so any team would likely jump at that chance.

 

[AZman5103]

It's like the David Robinson comparison. Robinson in his prime averaged 25+ points per game. Ayton has a ways to go offensively to be on that level. Though to be fair the game isn't typically played through the big man in the post anymore and the Suns certainly don't play that way either.

Well....Robinson came into the league and was an immediate star in 89-90....24pts/12reb as a rookie...but he was 24...and possibly one of the most mentally tough young men to enter the league?? The dude was just an old sole...mature beyond his years, and his time in the service helped create a really wonderful person and leader. **(I met David Robinson once. One of the nicest guys Ive ever chatted with. Total class act).

Ayton is still only 22....didn't grow up playing ball...and to be kind....didn't seem to have a lot of great people around him coming up. From his cheating coach, to his bribe taking parents....seems like they were all about using DeAndre...not so much mentoring him. Can you imagine the difference we would see in young players if they spent time in the Navy before entering the league?

Anyway...my #1 takeaway from this post season is that Ayton is "getting it". He is seeing success, he is seeing how much more natural talent he has than even pro level players...and he is starting to realize that when he plays with high energy, he can dominate in the NBA. Now he just has to lock in that mentality and block out distractions and I think he could be another David Robinson.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well....Robinson came into the league and was an immediate star in 89-90....24pts/12reb as a rookie...but he was 24...and possibly one of the most mentally tough young men to enter the league?? The dude was just an old sole...mature beyond his years, and his time in the service helped create a really wonderful person and leader. **(I met David Robinson once. One of the nicest guys Ive ever chatted with. Total class act).

Ayton is still only 22....didn't grow up playing ball...and to be kind....didn't seem to have a lot of great people around him coming up. From his cheating coach, to his bribe taking parents....seems like they were all about using DeAndre...not so much mentoring him. Can you imagine the difference we would see in young players if they spent time in the Navy before entering the league?

Anyway...my #1 takeaway from this post season is that Ayton is "getting it". He is seeing success, he is seeing how much more natural talent he has than even pro level players...and he is starting to realize that when he plays with high energy, he can dominate in the NBA. Now he just has to lock in that mentality and block out distractions and I think he could be another David Robinson.

Ayton certainly has the talent to potentially reach that level. I'm just saying that he still has a ways to go offensively to get there.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ayton is starting to really show the David Robinson comparison IMO. I think expecting HOF level play from anyone is hard...but I think a good year from Ayton will look alot like a good year from Robinson. Now it's just a matter of how many of those years can you string together without injury.

Here is Robinson's Stat Line from his 95 MVP Season:

1995

Games:82
Min: 36.8
Points: 25.0
FG%: 51.6
3Pt%: 33.3
Rebs: 12.2
Asst: 3.0
Steals: 1.4
Blocks: 3.3

Is there anyone that doubts a season like that is within Ayton's grasp after what we have seen in the playoffs? I'm sold! I think he can be a top 10 player in the NBA! I was more critical of his mental toughness than anyone, but it really seems like he has flipped a switch. My only concern now is does he keep the intensity once he gets 150 million bucks??

Can you imagine Robinson or Olajuwon in today’s game? They’d be averaging 40 ppg. Hell even Embiid and Jokic are close to 30 ppg and aren’t the physical talents of those guys.

Ayton is balling but he’s perfect in this role. We shouldn’t be asking for much more than he’s giving us (maybe improved passing down the road).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

See, I don't think that's a fair argument. TEAM would look different. Either way, Luka and Booker would be an insane combo. As high as I am on Ayton, Luka vs. Ayton is not even a remotely close comparison. Luka is right now a top-ten, if not a top-five player in the league.

Right. If they went luka instead of Ayton maybe they go capella instead of CP3. So a better comp is:

luka
Book
Capella

v.

paul
Book
Ayton

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

On 10-14 shooting!! How many shots did her average per game this season??

Logic says if you up his shots by 7-8 a game that 4 of them are going in....so averaging 25 points a game is a simple usage issue. Now obviously if his efficiency takes a dump...then this changes. But I think Ayton is earning more touches every game. He is just proving to be too much a matchup nightmare for other bigs that we would be insane not to give him the ball more and more until someone shows they can stop him

I don’t disagree with you, but his efficiency right now is primarily driven by monty keeping things simple for him. He’s fed a LOT of finishing opportunities. It’s not like we are pounding the ball into the post and he’s going to work. His shooting percentage is a combination of his ability and his shots coming in the flow of the offense. If we switched to pounding the ball into the post (a) his efficiency likely drops significantly; and (b) the teams offense as a whole likely suffers.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

Give me the squad that's up 2-0 in the WCF without their All-NBA point guard.

No Ragerts

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well....Robinson came into the league and was an immediate star in 89-90....24pts/12reb as a rookie...but he was 24...and possibly one of the most mentally tough young men to enter the league?? The dude was just an old sole...mature beyond his years, and his time in the service helped create a really wonderful person and leader. **(I met David Robinson once. One of the nicest guys Ive ever chatted with. Total class act).

Ayton is still only 22....didn't grow up playing ball...and to be kind....didn't seem to have a lot of great people around him coming up. From his cheating coach, to his bribe taking parents....seems like they were all about using DeAndre...not so much mentoring him. Can you imagine the difference we would see in young players if they spent time in the Navy before entering the league?

Anyway...my #1 takeaway from this post season is that Ayton is "getting it". He is seeing success, he is seeing how much more natural talent he has than even pro level players...and he is starting to realize that when he plays with high energy, he can dominate in the NBA. Now he just has to lock in that mentality and block out distractions and I think he could be another David Robinson.

I agree with this. In fact, when Ayton finished that monster alley-oop over zubac in the first quarter and came up screaming and flexing my thought was “my god I don’t think he’s even fully figured out that he’s capable of that! But it seems he’s learning he can!” It’s like watching Rottweiler puppy figuring out it can shred anything in its path.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don’t disagree with you, but his efficiency right now is primarily driven by monty keeping things simple for him. He’s fed a LOT of finishing opportunities. It’s not like we are pounding the ball into the post and he’s going to work. His shooting percentage is a combination of his ability and his shots coming in the flow of the offense. If we switched to pounding the ball into the post (a) his efficiency likely drops significantly; and (b) the teams offense as a whole likely suffers.

Monty is not doing this for Ayton's sake per se. He is doing it because it is what is best for team success. Pounding the ball inside is just plain bad offense. I don't think I am disagreeing or agreeing with you. Just adding a slightly different perspective.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Monty is not doing this for Ayton's sake per se. He is doing it because it is what is best for team success. Pounding the ball inside is just plain bad offense. I don't think I am disagreeing or agreeing with you. Just adding a slightly different perspective.

With this team, with Ayton at his present skill level, it is 100% bas offense. But that’s kinda my point. It’s bad offense bc we won’t get the same efficiency outta Ayton so there will be wasted offensive trips at present.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Monty is not doing this for Ayton's sake per se. He is doing it because it is what is best for team success. Pounding the ball inside is just plain bad offense. I don't think I am disagreeing or agreeing with you. Just adding a slightly different perspective.

With this team, with Ayton at his present skill level, it is 100% bad offense. But that’s kinda my point. It’s bad offense bc we won’t get the same efficiency outta Ayton so there will be wasted offensive trips at present.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You know what I love about the way Ayton’s playing right now? I have no desire to debate who he is or isn’t or who we should have drafted.

he’s the perfect piece and x-factor for us winning the title and right now he is locked and loaded trying to accomplish that.

 

[SirStefan32]

I agree with this. In fact, when Ayton finished that monster alley-oop over zubac in the first quarter and came up screaming and flexing my thought was “my god I don’t think he’s even fully figured out that he’s capable of that! But it seems he’s learning he can!” It’s like watching Rottweiler puppy figuring out it can shred anything in its path.

I completely agree. He doesn't realize how big, long, and quick he is. There is nobody in the league right now that can guard him, and I think he is starting to figure that part out.

 

[Covert Rain]

You know what I love about the way Ayton’s playing right now? I have no desire to debate who he is or isn’t or who we should have drafted.

he’s the perfect piece and x-factor for us winning the title and right now he is locked and loaded trying to accomplish that.

I will take it one step further. I love the fact that after all this time we can even began to have these debates about him.

 

[Covert Rain]

See, I don't think that's a fair argument. TEAM would look different. Either way, Luka and Booker would be an insane combo. As high as I am on Ayton, Luka vs. Ayton is not even a remotely close comparison. Luka is right now a top-ten, if not a top-five player in the league.

It's completely fair. I am not directly comparing two players in a vacuum. Nobody is saying Ayton is better than Doncic. He is not. What is being said is with THIS roster, with this team's makeup Ayton adds dimensions this team needs and that Doncic can't fill. The defense would look completely different. The paint wouldn't be the same on offense or defense. The rebounding wouldn't be the same.

I am not saying that the Suns with Luca wouldn't be a winning team or an exciting combo with Booker. However, I completely disagree we would be this deep in the playoffs with Luca since many of his skills are redundant with CP3/Booker. That's not a knock on Doncic at all. We are getting those interior needs filled at a Star level from Ayton.

Now if you want to argue remaking our roster to shore up the Center position then add Doncic that's a completely different story. Hell in a dream world if we had Doncic, Booker and Ayton that's a completely different discussion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's completely fair. I am not directly comparing two players in a vacuum. Nobody is saying Ayton is better than Doncic. He is not. What is being said is with THIS roster, with this team's makeup Ayton adds dimensions this team needs and that Doncic can't fill. The defense would look completely different. The paint wouldn't be the same on offense or defense. The rebounding wouldn't be the same.

I am not saying that the Suns with Luca wouldn't be a winning team or an exciting combo with Booker. However, I completely disagree we would be this deep in the playoffs with Luca since many of his skills are redundant with CP3/Booker. That's not a knock on Doncic at all. We are getting those interior needs filled at a Star level from Ayton.

Now if you want to argue remaking our roster to shore up the Center position then add Doncic that's a completely different story. Hell in a dream world if we had Doncic, Booker and Ayton that's a completely different discussion.

I don’t think anyone disagrees with your first paragraph. But if we drafted luka instead of ayton I guarantee our roster construction would’ve been different. I think we would’ve pursued capella and never would’ve traded for cp3 or signed Rubio. Would’ve been interesting to see what they did with the Rubio cash instead.

that said, I’m not even saying I would’ve preferred that route. I love this team and would trade this run for what if’s. But the alternate universe would’ve been interesting to explore.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don’t think anyone disagrees with your first paragraph. But if we drafted luka instead of ayton I guarantee our roster construction would’ve been different. I think we would’ve pursued capella and never would’ve traded for cp3 or signed Rubio. Would’ve been interesting to see what they did with the Rubio cash instead.

that said, I’m not even saying I would’ve preferred that route. I love this team and would trade this run for what if’s. But the alternate universe would’ve been interesting to explore.

That's a ton of speculation. You are assuming that the same players would have signed here or that we would have been able to get our hands on a competent center. This team for example has been searching for a big man for how long? I don't think it's a stretch to think that getting our hands on a competent front court would have continued along the same path.

Definitely fun to explore.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's a ton of speculation. You are assuming that the same players would have signed here or that we would have been able to get our hands on a competent center. This team for example has been searching for a big man for how long? I don't think it's a stretch to think that getting our hands on a competent front court would have continued along the same path.

Definitely fun to explore.

If I’m not mistaken there was legitimate speculation that the suns might pursue capella.

 

[Covert Rain]

If I’m not mistaken there was legitimate speculation that the suns might pursue capella.

I remember that. The problem with the Suns has never been who they want to pursue. It's who is willing to reciprocate the interest.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I remember that. The problem with the Suns has never been who they want to pursue. It's who is willing to reciprocate the interest.

There will be interest now.

 

[AZman5103]

There will be interest now.

Ding ding ding! Booker and Ayton are showing every "tail-end of their career guy with one more run in him" type where there bread is buttered in the west! You wanna go live under LeBrons iron fist...go ahead, we will smoke you anyway!!

 

[Cheesebeef]

There will be interest now.

yup. That’s one of the best things (outside a title) that could come out of this run... we become a FA destination for ring chasers and if we have cap room, bigger FAs if we’re willing to keep spending.

 

[Chaplin]

Is Doncic’s advantage on offense over Ayton larger than Ayton’s advantage on defense? I think that is an open question right now.

 

[AZ Native]

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[Proximo]

People saying luka is far better than ayton are missing some important points.

Ayton is way more efficient, at this point he is a far better defensive player, and he does not demand the ball.

Lukas usage is too high. He always seems to wear down in the second half because he is too much of a ball hog. Then there are the reports he was not happy with his coach.

basically what I am saying is I think he is a diva.

yes he is the better player, but I don’t think he is a player that is more conducive to winning.

 

[SirStefan32]

Is Doncic’s advantage on offense over Ayton larger than Ayton’s advantage on defense? I think that is an open question right now.

No it is not. Not even close. Doncic is an all-NBA player and a legitimate MVP candidate. Ayton is not even in the tier bellow that or the one bellow that. Maybe in the next one down.

I love Ayton as much as the next guy, and I am as much of a homer as the next guy, but Ayton to Doncic comparison is just not a serious one. Doncic is at least three tiers above Ayton.