Mavericks @ Suns Sunday game thread 8-2-20 (season restart)

[ASUCHRIS]

I think Ayton is judged far too harshly and with a pretty serious microscope but there is no other way to slice it, he had a crap game tonight.

But hey, we won, I'll take it. If we're going to keep winning then a game like this needs to be a blip.

The frustration that I (and many others) likely feel is the fact that he should be so much more dominant and physically imposing than he is. Perhaps it's because we were treated to Amare's level of aggression, but the contrast is stark.

Amare had a dog mentality on offense, and attacked non-stop. Ayton is almost exactly the opposite - he's never seen a dunk he can't turn into a layup or pass.

Ayton is a fine player in spite of looking like a space cadet out there half the time, which makes it even more frustrating. With a little more focus and awareness defensively, and aggression offensively, he'd be a top 3 big man. I'm just not sure he'll reach those heights unless he changes his mentality.

 

[1Sun]

The frustration that I (and many others) likely feel is the fact that he should be so much more dominant and physically imposing than he is. Perhaps it's because we were treated to Amare's level of aggression, but the contrast is stark.

Amare had a dog mentality on offense, and attacked non-stop. Ayton is almost exactly the opposite - he's never seen a dunk he can't turn into a layup or pass.

Ayton is a fine player in spite of looking like a space cadet out there half the time, which makes it even more frustrating. With a little more focus and awareness defensively, and aggression offensively, he'd be a top 3 big man. I'm just not sure he'll reach those heights unless he changes his mentality.

With that, he would be Hakeem Olajuwon or David Robinson, or at least Patrick Ewing. Without it, he looks more like Benoit Benjamin, Joe Barry Carroll or Michael Olowokandi.

 

[Chaplin]

Without it, he looks more like Benoit Benjamin, Joe Barry Carroll or Michael Olowokandi.

Get out of here with that nonsense.

Each of those guys would be lucky to put up Ayton's numbers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Saw a stat last night that Doncic is 0-10 in game winning or tying shots at the end of games this season. Had I known that last night then I would have breathed a bit easier before the final possession. I knew the Mav's had issues closing games but didn't realize Luka was that un-clutch.

Here's where I saw it. Not sure where you can look up that stat on your own but if someone does, please share a link.
https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-restart-first-impressions/

that surprises me.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can take Ayton having an off game. Every player does.

However these games where he can't catch the ball or hold onto the ball drives me crazy.

We saw this last night.

 

[95pro]

I can take Ayton having an off game. Every player does.

However these games where he can't catch the ball or hold onto the ball drives me crazy.

We saw this last night.

IMO Ayton is mentally weak. Not dunking or trying to finish on or over someone. Looking to pass first while be guarded by a mouse while within 10ft of the goal. And someone mentioned that he struggles against taller players. Ayton defeats himself before the game even starts.

Whats weird though is that he's really engaged while guarding someone on the perimeter, usually a smaller person like a guard.

 

[Mainstreet]

IMO Ayton is mentally weak. Not dunking or trying to finish on or over someone. Looking to pass first while be guarded by a mouse while within 10ft of the goal. And someone mentioned that he struggles against taller players. Ayton defeats himself before the game even starts.

Whats weird though is that he's really engaged while guarding someone on the perimeter, usually a smaller person like a guard.

Suns definitely need a rim protector next season. The whole team seemed confused by Dallas' offense but this is not the first time teams have done it to the Suns. They got a dose of it all season.

Luckily the Mavs went cold from 3-point range but the Suns are definitely susceptible to teams that spread the court and either shoot 3-pointers or drive it to the basket. The Mavs were playing SSOL most of the night. The Suns (D-Antoni) invented it. They should know something about it... it's part of their history.

Back to Ayton, until he matures and can guard the rim the Suns need a couple of 4/5 type players that can. Ayton needs to be taught how to guard the rim with his arms straight up like Bill Walton used to do. No need to reach-in, make the player shoot over the top down low.

Hopefully Ayton is still learning the game and loses sight that he should be the dominant inside player on the court. Why he doesn't have better hands and loses confidence is a real problem. Hopefully it's something that he learns with experience.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Suns definitely need a rim protector next season. The whole team seemed confused by Dallas' offense but this is not the first time teams have done it to the Suns. They got a dose of it all season.

Luckily the Mavs went cold from 3-point range but the Suns are definitely susceptible to teams that spread the court and either shoot 3-pointers or drive it to the basket. The Mavs were playing SSOL most of the night. The Suns (D-Antoni) invented it. They should know something about it... it's part of their history.

Back to Ayton, until he matures and can guard the rim the Suns need a couple of 4/5 type players that can. Ayton needs to be taught how to guard the rim with his arms straight up like Bill Walton used to do. No need to reach-in, make the player shoot over the top down low.

Hopefully Ayton is still learning the game and loses sight that he should be the dominant inside player on the court. Why he doesn't have better hands and loses confidence is a real problem. Hopefully it's something that he learns with experience.

the hands thing is really frustrating. Is that something that can be worked on? Trying to think of other big men through the years who had skillet hands that got better over the years.

 

[Chaplin]

Suns definitely need a rim protector next season. The whole team seemed confused by Dallas' offense but this is not the first time teams have done it to the Suns. They got a dose of it all season.

Luckily the Mavs went cold from 3-point range but the Suns are definitely susceptible to teams that spread the court and either shoot 3-pointers or drive it to the basket. The Mavs were playing SSOL most of the night. The Suns (D-Antoni) invented it. They should know something about this... it's part of their history.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning for this. The only thing that we have now that we had then is Robert Sarver. Outside of James Jones playing in that system from 2005-2007, there is nothing else tying us to that era at all.

Back to Ayton, until he matures and can guard the rim the Suns need a couple of 4/5 type players that can. Ayton needs to be taught how to guard the rim with his arms straight up like Bill Walton used to do. No need to reach-in, make the player shoot over the top down low.

Except he DOES do that. His problem is that with as good of footwork he has, he doesn't always move like he should on defense down low.

 

[Mainstreet]

the hands thing is really frustrating. Is that something that can be worked on? Trying to think of other big men through the years who had skillet hands that got better over the years.

It's perplexing for sure but some games it does not appear to be a problem. Maybe he loses mental concentration. He missed a dunk last night on a pass (I believe by Booker) where he simply wasn't ready to receive the ball. It was a sure two points and he missed the shot badly.

 

[Chaplin]

It's perplexing for sure but some games it does not appear to be a problem. Maybe he loses mental concentration. He missed a dunk last night on a pass (I believe by Booker) where he simply wasn't ready to receive the ball. It was a sure two points and he missed the shot badly.

Yeah, I remember that play. The pass was a little high, but not enough for Ayton to fumble it that badly.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Get out of here with that nonsense.

Each of those guys would be lucky to put up Ayton's numbers.

Yeah, Ayton will never be a bust because he falls out of bed and can put up 17/10. The disappointment is in the fact that half the time, he looks either timid or like he's just learning basketball.

I was hoping 2 years in he'd be more consistent, or at least show more aggression.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning for this. The only thing that we have now that we had then is Robert Sarver. Outside of James Jones playing in that system from 2005-2007, there is nothing else tying us to that era at all.

It's more the irony of it. The Suns wrote the book on SSOL and they don't know how to defend it. James Jones should know but it's not a secret as a lot of teams use the concept.

Except he DOES do that. His problem is that with as good of footwork he has, he doesn't always move like he should on defense down low.

And Ayton is often out of position as well. If he kept his arms straight up he would get a lot of blocks simply by being there, staying down and not biting on the fakes.

 

[Chaplin]

It's more the irony of it. The Suns wrote the book on SSOL and they don't know how to defend it. James Jones should know but it's not a secret as a lot of teams use the concept.




And Ayton is often out of position as well. If he kept his arms straight up he would get a lot of blocks simply by being there, staying down and not biting on the fakes.

I think that's a big reason why his blocks improved so much before the stoppage this season.

 

[95pro]

It's perplexing for sure but some games it does not appear to be a problem. Maybe he loses mental concentration. He missed a dunk last night on a pass (I believe by Booker) where he simply wasn't ready to receive the ball. It was a sure two points and he missed the shot badly.

the hands thing is really frustrating. Is that something that can be worked on? Trying to think of other big men through the years who had skillet hands that got better over the years.

he's already thinking of the next move is what he's thinking. I think he's scared of getting stripped or blocked. He has his mind made already on what he'll do, instead of figuring out what naturally should come.

Its like those WR in football dropping an easy pass.

 

[1Sun]

Get out of here with that nonsense.

Each of those guys would be lucky to put up Ayton's numbers.

Benjamin averaged 16 and 9 with 3 blocks in his fourth season. Carroll averaged 21 and 8-9 with 1.5-2 blocks through his first four seasons, including numbers quite similar to Ayton's in his first two seasons. Your statement is appropriate with respect to Olowokandi, which is a worst case scenario. All three got to the free throw line more than Ayton.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning for this. The only thing that we have now that we had then is Robert Sarver. Outside of James Jones playing in that system from 2005-2007, there is nothing else tying us to that era at all.


Except he DOES do that. His problem is that with as good of footwork he has, he doesn't always move like he should on defense down low.

I didn't see the game but my thing with Ayton has always been I think he has very bad timing when he jumps. It's why he lost so many jump balls at Arizona his one year in college despite being tall and athletically freaky, he mistimes the jump. I think it's the same on blocked shots he doesn't time it well he either jumps too early or too late.

he's obviously a good player with tons of upside I'm just not sure he's ever going to be a good rim protector because of the timing thing,

 

[Mainstreet]

I didn't see the game but my thing with Ayton has always been I think he has very bad timing when he jumps. It's why he lost so many jump balls at Arizona his one year in college despite being tall and athletically freaky, he mistimes the jump. I think it's the same on blocked shots he doesn't time it well he either jumps too early or too late.

he's obviously a good player with tons of upside I'm just not sure he's ever going to be a good rim protector because of the timing thing,

The funny thing is Ayton might be better off not jumping defensively. Simply standing in the right location with his arms straight up would help a lot. Being out of location probably hurts more than anything.

 

[Raindog]

It definitely would behoove the Suns to get Ayton some specialized big man coaching. Lots of teams used to do that back in the day if they had a center they believed (rightly or wrongly) could be an elite player.

Of course, with the skinflint ownership here, I realize it's preposterous to even suggest that. But it's one of (the many) things the franchise should be doing that it's not if it was really focused on building a winning culture.

 

[Russ Smith]

It definitely would behoove the Suns to get Ayton some specialized big man coaching. Lots of teams used to do that back in the day if they had a center they believed (rightly or wrongly) could be an elite player.

Of course, with the skinflint ownership here, I realize it's preposterous to even suggest that. But it's one of (the many) things the franchise should be doing that it's not if it was really focused on building a winning culture.

Oh yea if there were still a Pete Newell big man camp Ayton would be a perennial all star after a year there.

he's good now, but man if he had that type of coaching look out.

 

[AzStevenCal]

the hands thing is really frustrating. Is that something that can be worked on? Trying to think of other big men through the years who had skillet hands that got better over the years.

But he really doesn't have skillet hands. I pointed out my concerns about his hands while he was still in college and nobody seemed to agree. But, anyway, he has great hands. He really does. And then he doesn't. He'll grab everything in sight for several games and then he'll fumble away rebounds and passes one after the other. It doesn't "appear" to be a lack of concentration but who knows?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Oh yea if there were still a Pete Newell big man camp Ayton would be a perennial all star after a year there.

he's good now, but man if he had that type of coaching look out.

Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't seem to me that any of the big men have benefitted from the Pete Newell type big men camps since Pete was still alive and active. Of course, I'm only viewing that from a Suns standpoint - we've sent several to learn from similar gurus and they all come back playing like Gortat, more dancer than baller.

 

[Raindog]

Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't seem to me that any of the big men have benefitted from the Pete Newell type big men camps since Pete was still alive and active. Of course, I'm only viewing that from a Suns standpoint - we've sent several to learn from similar gurus and they all come back playing like Gortat, more dancer than baller.

Well, you can't turn chicken you-know-what into chicken salad. But if you have a guy like Ayton who has a ton of natural athletic ability but has only been playing the game for a relatively short period of time, and gotten relatively little actual coaching, some specialized training could go along way into helping him fully realizing his potential.

From what I understand, Hakeem Olajuwon developed by leaps and bounds playing with and against Moses Malone in Houston summer rec leagues when he was in college. That wasn't necessarily formal coaching, but it's pretty apparent how much Malone helped and influenced him.

 

[Mainstreet]

Oh yea if there were still a Pete Newell big man camp Ayton would be a perennial all star after a year there.

he's good now, but man if he had that type of coaching look out.

The last I heard Mark Bryant was working with Ayton. It wouldn't hurt to add someone else.

 

[Hoop Head]

It definitely would behoove the Suns to get Ayton some specialized big man coaching. Lots of teams used to do that back in the day if they had a center they believed (rightly or wrongly) could be an elite player.

Of course, with the skinflint ownership here, I realize it's preposterous to even suggest that. But it's one of (the many) things the franchise should be doing that it's not if it was really focused on building a winning culture.

We have a big man coach this year and I think Ayton has benefitted from it a good deal. Mark Bryant, former Rocket, Blazer, and Sun PF/C, is part of Monty's staff and has worked with Ayton a lot. I credit him for helping Ayton's defensive improvement this year.

I know Bryant isn't a big name but most good coaches weren't big name players. Role players learn the little things to keep them in the league for years on end and those who learn to teach those things are the ones who end up having another career on the bench when their playing days are over. Bryant has been an assistant for a long time also, having been an assistant in OKC since their last year in Seattle, 2007-08, up until coming here with Monty.