Draft day moves summation

[Covert Rain]

P.S. I hope our draft turns out to have at least one diamond in the rough. I would be thrilled with that. I just don’t think this draft or the trades were particularly good.

I am still holding out hope for one more move to get a legitimate PG.

In the meantime we got a lights out shooter and dirt working PG that is at least intriguing to me.

 

[Chaplin]

I would love to if that was the point I was making or the topic. People were commenting on what it is they think we acquired as was I. I have already stated I would have preferred they position themselves in the draft for a young big instead.

Which young big at 11 (or even 6) is a better option than Saric? And please don't say Brandon Clarke, who was no better than #20 and who was never projected to be a starter at all.

 

[Raze]

My summation of the draft day moves is that the new FO has a poor understanding of value.

I find it completely asinine that the only way to get rid of TJ was to give up a #32. Guy shoots 43% from 3 and scores 18 a game on a decent contract. There is no way that we got close to the value TJ offered. (Worse, we already have an owner that suffers in the optics department, so they go ahead and trade TJ and a pick for cash? Seriously?) I truly hopes TJ lights it up in Indi.

Trading the #6 pick for #11 and Saric again shows a complete lack of understanding of value. Saric is a decent player... decent. But worth it to go back 5 spots from #6? Absolutely not. (I've been listening to podcasts and experts all week and NO ONE thinks they got full value for #6. This isn't just an IMO thing. This is a NO ONE thing). I also am flummoxed that they didn't wait till #6 was on the board and leverage other teams for the pick. The absolute floor would have been what we got anyway. So poorly handled.

Cam Johnson is a good player. He's not Kendall Marshall. That said, taking him at #11 just solidified the case that Jones/Bower don't understand value. Not only could they probably have got him at #20ish and gotten further assets, they could have paid him $1.2M less to clear more cap space(3.5M to 2.3M). And even if someone jumped them to steal him, so what? He isn't THAT good. They just didn't handle this well at all.

And the truly scary part is that they probably think they did well. Which means that they are doomed to repeat this. (Best case scenario is that Bower is the cause for all this, and gets fired for it. Maybe it wasn't JJ and he can right the ship. #graspingatstraws)

We still have Monty. We still have Book, Ayton, and Bridges. All isn't lost. But how many more of these debacles can they take? How many more until we drive them away? With any more nights like Thursday it won't be long.

 

[1Sun]

My summation of the draft day moves is that the new FO has a poor understanding of value.

I find it completely asinine that the only way to get rid of TJ was to give up a #32. Guy shoots 43% from 3 and scores 18 a game on a decent contract. There is no way that we got close to the value TJ offered. (Worse, we already have an owner that suffers in the optics department, so they go ahead and trade TJ and a pick for cash? Seriously?) I truly hopes TJ lights it up in Indi.

Trading the #6 pick for #11 and Saric again shows a complete lack of understanding of value. Saric is a decent player... decent. But worth it to go back 5 spots from #6? Absolutely not. (I've been listening to podcasts and experts all week and NO ONE thinks they got full value for #6. This isn't just an IMO thing. This is a NO ONE thing). I also am flummoxed that they didn't wait till #6 was on the board and leverage other teams for the pick. The absolute floor would have been what we got anyway. So poorly handled.

Cam Johnson is a good player. He's not Kendall Marshall. That said, taking him at #11 just solidified the case that Jones/Bower don't understand value. Not only could they probably have got him at #20ish and gotten further assets, they could have paid him $1.2M less to clear more cap space(3.5M to 2.3M). And even if someone jumped them to steal him, so what? He isn't THAT good. They just didn't handle this well at all.

And the truly scary part is that they probably think they did well. Which means that they are doomed to repeat this. (Best case scenario is that Bower is the cause for all this, and gets fired for it. Maybe it wasn't JJ and he can right the ship. #graspingatstraws)

We still have Monty. We still have Book, Ayton, and Bridges. All isn't lost. But how many more of these debacles can they take? How many more until we drive them away? With any more nights like Thursday it won't be long.

This. A million times this.

 

[AzStevenCal]

My summation of the draft day moves is that the new FO has a poor understanding of value.

I find it completely asinine that the only way to get rid of TJ was to give up a #32. Guy shoots 43% from 3 and scores 18 a game on a decent contract. There is no way that we got close to the value TJ offered. (Worse, we already have an owner that suffers in the optics department, so they go ahead and trade TJ and a pick for cash? Seriously?) I truly hopes TJ lights it up in Indi.

Trading the #6 pick for #11 and Saric again shows a complete lack of understanding of value. Saric is a decent player... decent. But worth it to go back 5 spots from #6? Absolutely not. (I've been listening to podcasts and experts all week and NO ONE thinks they got full value for #6. This isn't just an IMO thing. This is a NO ONE thing). I also am flummoxed that they didn't wait till #6 was on the board and leverage other teams for the pick. The absolute floor would have been what we got anyway. So poorly handled.

Cam Johnson is a good player. He's not Kendall Marshall. That said, taking him at #11 just solidified the case that Jones/Bower don't understand value. Not only could they probably have got him at #20ish and gotten further assets, they could have paid him $1.2M less to clear more cap space(3.5M to 2.3M). And even if someone jumped them to steal him, so what? He isn't THAT good. They just didn't handle this well at all.

And the truly scary part is that they probably think they did well. Which means that they are doomed to repeat this. (Best case scenario is that Bower is the cause for all this, and gets fired for it. Maybe it wasn't JJ and he can right the ship. #graspingatstraws)

We still have Monty. We still have Book, Ayton, and Bridges. All isn't lost. But how many more of these debacles can they take? How many more until we drive them away? With any more nights like Thursday it won't be long.

I don't feel anywhere near as strongly as you do about these moves but I thought we were on the losing side, value-wise, on each of these deals too.

 

[Raze]

Which young big at 11 (or even 6) is a better option than Saric? And please don't say Brandon Clarke, who was no better than #20 and who was never projected to be a starter at all.

Clarke is a better option if you believe that D needed to be addressed more than O. So which needed to be addressed more? I believe that in order to become a legit team you have to strike balance between the two. With Book and Ayton as the core of this team I strongly believe that the answer has got to be D. So I'd reframe your question to:

Which PF helps the #29 ranked Defense get better? Saric? Clarke? or Kabengele?

This team doesn't need PF that can score but is mediocre at D. This team absolutely needed to aim for some balance on O and D. Saric doesn't help in that department at all. I wasn't a big fan of Clarke, but he at least would have been a MASSIVE upgrade on D at PF. Massive.

I would have traded back for Kab or Clarke or traded for a Defensive presence at PF. Saric does not help our #29 ranked D.

 

[Covert Rain]

Which young big at 11 (or even 6) is a better option than Saric? And please don't say Brandon Clarke, who was no better than #20 and who was never projected to be a starter at all.

My point was that I would have rather seen the team pick up a young project PF than Saric because i think the Suns wanted an expiring contract to clear cap space.

However since you brought up Clark he may not ever be a star in the league and a tweener but I bet he will rebound and play defense better than Saric while giving up two inches.

There were some other project PF that I bet would be better at both things as well but I have not looked up the stats since before the draft. I think the Suns should have drafted by need somewhere around or trading down in that area to do so.

Clarke is a better option if you believe that D needed to be addressed more than O. So which needed to be addressed more? I believe that in order to become a legit team you have to strike balance between the two. With Book and Ayton as the core of this team I strongly believe that the answer has got to be D. So I'd reframe your question to:

Which PF helps the #29 ranked Defense get better? Saric? Clarke? or Kabengele?

This team doesn't need PF that can score but is mediocre at D. This team absolutely needed to aim for some balance on O and D. Saric doesn't help in that department at all. I wasn't a big fan of Clarke, but he at least would have been a MASSIVE upgrade on D at PF. Massive.

I would have traded back for Kab or Clarke or traded for a Defensive presence at PF. Saric does not help our #29 ranked D.

This.

 

[Hoop Head]

Clarke is a better option if you believe that D needed to be addressed more than O. So which needed to be addressed more? I believe that in order to become a legit team you have to strike balance between the two. With Book and Ayton as the core of this team I strongly believe that the answer has got to be D. So I'd reframe your question to:

Which PF helps the #29 ranked Defense get better? Saric? Clarke? or Kabengele?

This team doesn't need PF that can score but is mediocre at D. This team absolutely needed to aim for some balance on O and D. Saric doesn't help in that department at all. I wasn't a big fan of Clarke, but he at least would have been a MASSIVE upgrade on D at PF. Massive.

I would have traded back for Kab or Clarke or traded for a Defensive presence at PF. Saric does not help our #29 ranked D.

Saric doesn't figure to help our 29th ranked defense but he does figure to help our 30th ranked 3pt shooting and Cam Johnson figures to help that as well. That is what the league is moving towards placing a premium on, 3pt shooting. Look no further than Houston to see a legit contender that doesn't play good or great defense but competes because of their outside shooting. Like Houston the Suns have a couple of defensive players to help get key stops but adding offense was a priority since the Suns had been the worst 3pt shooting team for years now. When you're as bad as the Suns have been you don't have the ability to address every need in front of you, you have to pick and choose. How much would Clarke help our defense in 20 minutes a night? I doubt that moves the needle. How much does a good shooter effect your 3pt shooting in 20 minutes a night? That can be the difference between shooting poor and shooting average from outside if he comes in shoots at a good clip.

 

[Raze]

Saric doesn't figure to help our 29th ranked defense but he does figure to help our 30th ranked 3pt shooting and Cam Johnson figures to help that as well. That is what the league is moving towards placing a premium on, 3pt shooting. Look no further than Houston to see a legit contender that doesn't play good or great defense but competes because of their outside shooting. Like Houston the Suns have a couple of defensive players to help get key stops but adding offense was a priority since the Suns had been the worst 3pt shooting team for years now. When you're as bad as the Suns have been you don't have the ability to address every need in front of you, you have to pick and choose. How much would Clarke help our defense in 20 minutes a night? I doubt that moves the needle. How much does a good shooter effect your 3pt shooting in 20 minutes a night? That can be the difference between shooting poor and shooting average from outside if he comes in shoots at a good clip.

I don't strongly disagree with you. We suck on so many levels we might as well try to get better in an area that makes a large gain. So I get the lure of 3 point shooting.

But no one wins championships without playing D. Houston is a perfect example. They continually rack up tons of wins and then get ousted every year. Why? Because 3 point shooting can be fickle. And its a lot harder to hit 3's in game 5 of the conference finals than it is in game 5 of the regular season. But D is not fickle. It's the most reliable aspect of sports. You don't go into Defensive slumps.

So when Houston's shots aren't going down they're completely doomed. But when GS or Toronto's shots aren't going down, they're still in the game because they can slow you down.

GS and Toronto played exceptional D... and shoot 3's. I'd much rather model my team after one of these two than Houston. (I know I know, we aren't getting a Durant or Kawhii any time soon. I'm just saying who I'd model my team after.)

And that's exactly what I'd do. Find a PG and PF that are 3&D (or better) to put with Book, Bridges and Ayton and see what we can do. That's the closest we're gonna get to being a legit contender... as is.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't strongly disagree with you. We suck on so many levels we might as well try to get better in an area that makes a large gain. So I get the lure of 3 point shooting.

But no one wins championships without playing D. Houston is a perfect example. They continually rack up tons of wins and then get ousted every year. Why? Because 3 point shooting can be fickle. And its a lot harder to hit 3's in game 5 of the conference finals than it is in game 5 of the regular season. But D is not fickle. It's the most reliable aspect of sports. You don't go into Defensive slumps.

So when Houston's shots aren't going down they're completely doomed. But when GS or Toronto's shots aren't going down, they're still in the game because they can slow you down.

GS and Toronto played exceptional D... and shoot 3's. I'd much rather model my team after one of these two than Houston. (I know I know, we aren't getting a Durant or Kawhii any time soon. I'm just saying who I'd model my team after.)

And that's exactly what I'd do. Find a PG and PF that are 3&D (or better) to put with Book, Bridges and Ayton and see what we can do. That's the closest we're gonna get to being a legit contender... as is.

I agree and understand the frustration, for sure. I just think there are too many holes to address them all and focusing on one area, be it defense, 3pt shooting, scoring, passing, or rebounding will make the weaknesses elsewhere stand out that much more.

I think the Suns were in a less than enviable position on draft night and really only addressed 2 holes, 3pt shooting and depth, and I think the reason they did that is they felt those were 2 areas they could improve dramatically compared to other holes that they could have only improved marginally. They went for the greater improvement and only time will tell if that is the right move. Now they don't need to worry as much about adding a PG who can shoot though and can focus on adding a defensive PG like a Brogdon who would help improve other weaknesses. If they can't get Brogdon, and I don't think they will, it's important they don't blow their cash on someone who hurts them more than helps. That is easier said than done but I think it is possible.

 

[SunnyBaller]

What is our cap situation going in to next year I assume it's pretty good since we will have alot of expiring contracts

 

[Hoop Head]

What is our cap situation going in to next year I assume it's pretty good since we will have alot of expiring contracts

It depends on what Oubre resigns for. I haven't looked into it myself but from what I've read it seems like it will be just over $30 million. It may end up being a little more but I think planning on $25-30 million is reasonable. Tyler Johnson, Aron Baynes, Josh Jackson, Saric, and Melton are all expiring.

 

[SunnyBaller]

It depends on what Oubre resigns for. I haven't looked into it myself but from what I've read it seems like it will be just over $30 million. It may end up being a little more but I think planning on $25-30 million is reasonable. Tyler Johnson, Aron Baynes, Josh Jackson, Saric, and Melton are all expiring.

That's what I figured to bad next year's free agent list isn't great

 

[Hoop Head]

That's what I figured to bad next year's free agent list isn't great

I know they'll sell cap space to the fan base as a way to add some good free agents but I think it's more valuable to a team like the Suns to use the space as a facilitator, like Atlanta has. A lot of people talked about us getting involved in a deal with the Pelicans and Lakers to land Lonzo and I remember talk last offseason of being a facilitator for some other moves as well but I don't recall the moves. The Suns haven't had the cap space to be a true facilitator and that's why all of those deals seemed like pipedreams, at best. You need to be able to absorb roughly $10 million in order to be a real facilitator and they will be able to do that next offseason. I know it's not a sexy approach that will excite anyone but it is realistic and can be quite beneficial for us, potentially.

 

[Sunburn]

I know they'll sell cap space to the fan base as a way to add some good free agents but I think it's more valuable to a team like the Suns to use the space as a facilitator, like Atlanta has. A lot of people talked about us getting involved in a deal with the Pelicans and Lakers to land Lonzo and I remember talk last offseason of being a facilitator for some other moves as well but I don't recall the moves. The Suns haven't had the cap space to be a true facilitator and that's why all of those deals seemed like pipedreams, at best. You need to be able to absorb roughly $10 million in order to be a real facilitator and they will be able to do that next offseason. I know it's not a sexy approach that will excite anyone but it is realistic and can be quite beneficial for us, potentially.

This is a good point.

 

[taz02]

When was the last time the suns significantly improved by using cap space to either sign someone or facilitate a trade?

 

[Sunburn]

When was the last time the suns significantly improved by using cap space to either sign someone or facilitate a trade?

Ariza in a roundabout way.

 

[SunnyBaller]

I know they'll sell cap space to the fan base as a way to add some good free agents but I think it's more valuable to a team like the Suns to use the space as a facilitator, like Atlanta has. A lot of people talked about us getting involved in a deal with the Pelicans and Lakers to land Lonzo and I remember talk last offseason of being a facilitator for some other moves as well but I don't recall the moves. The Suns haven't had the cap space to be a true facilitator and that's why all of those deals seemed like pipedreams, at best. You need to be able to absorb roughly $10 million in order to be a real facilitator and they will be able to do that next offseason. I know it's not a sexy approach that will excite anyone but it is realistic and can be quite beneficial for us, potentially.

Yep definitely agree, and as much as people hate the idea of "next year" that could be apart of their way to get their PG of the future since next draft is supposed to be loaded with good PGs , get picks by taking back contracts

 

[Hoop Head]

When was the last time the suns significantly improved by using cap space to either sign someone or facilitate a trade?

What does it matter if previous front office regimes have or haven't successfully done that here? Is that really enough to rule it out next offseason? There is a new front office running things now. It's not entirely fair to judge what they're capable of based on what previous regimes did over the last decade.

Renting out cap space as a facilitator has only been a common occurrence in the last 10-15 years as well, so there isn't very much of a window to judge it.

There are plenty of successful teams that haven't done it and there are also teams that have done it without benefitting much, if at all, so it's not a sure thing but it is an option that will be available to us.

 

[1Sun]

What is our cap situation going in to next year I assume it's pretty good since we will have alot of expiring contracts

The problem is that next year's free agent class is worse than awful.

 

[Yuma]

This is so funny. None of us know how any of this is going to work out. What we do know is that it is something different from the last six years or so. The Suns always seemed to be taking the youngest player on the draft or close to it.

Exactly. None of us knows how this will work out. Except we are getting some positional pieces that actually can fit their positions. Saric, no matter if he's an all star or not, is the best PF we have had in the last couple seasons. Monty Williams knows him, and I assume he knows his game.

We were one of the worst three point shooting teams in the NBA, so we drafted arguably the best three point shooter in the draft. At PG, I have been looking at the differense between Ty Jerome, and Coby White, the two guys we arguably had shoots at drafting. Ty Jerome fits our style better. If we had the fast breaking Suns of the past, White would be suprior with his frantic approach to the game. In the Booker era we are a half court offense. Arguably, one of the best half court point guards in the draft is Ty Jerome. They kid knows how to work the spacing and take what the defense allows, to work passes or shots. I am assuming from all Suns rumors, we will be taking a veteran PG so we won't be leaning on Ty Jerome as our starter anyway. We have to wait to see the final product.

I find it amusing how many people were absolutely against Coby White, but when we pass him in the draft, now he's remarkably better than anyone else we could get.

 

[Yuma]

I know they'll sell cap space to the fan base as a way to add some good free agents but I think it's more valuable to a team like the Suns to use the space as a facilitator, like Atlanta has. A lot of people talked about us getting involved in a deal with the Pelicans and Lakers to land Lonzo and I remember talk last offseason of being a facilitator for some other moves as well but I don't recall the moves. The Suns haven't had the cap space to be a true facilitator and that's why all of those deals seemed like pipedreams, at best. You need to be able to absorb roughly $10 million in order to be a real facilitator and they will be able to do that next offseason. I know it's not a sexy approach that will excite anyone but it is realistic and can be quite beneficial for us, potentially.

I haven't watched Atlanta close enough to see how the rental of cap space set up this season, where almost every trade involves Atlanta somehow! That front office is balling! They may be ushering in a new way of how to manege your resources in the NBA.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I find it amusing how many people were absolutely against Coby White, but when we pass him in the draft, now he's remarkably better than anyone else we could get.

I kind of fall in this group too. I've been very up and down when it comes to Coby. But at the time of the draft I would have preferred White over Saric and Cam. Let's face it, Coby has a chance to be a big star and that's not really in the cards for either Johnson or Dario. But realistically, we added 2 players that can help us and avoided a prospect that has serious bust risk. We probably made the smart decision, just not the sexy one and on draft day I was still looking for the sexy pick.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I haven't watched Atlanta close enough to see how the rental of cap space set up this season, where almost every trade involves Atlanta somehow! That front office is balling! They may be ushering in a new way of how to manege your resources in the NBA.

Yeah, I'm very impressed with what Atlanta and New Orleans have done.

 

[Hoop Head]

I kind of fall in this group too. I've been very up and down when it comes to Coby. But at the time of the draft I would have preferred White over Saric and Cam. Let's face it, Coby has a chance to be a big star and that's not really in the cards for either Johnson or Dario. But realistically, we added 2 players that can help us and avoided a prospect that has serious bust risk. We probably made the smart decision, just not the sexy one and on draft day I was still looking for the sexy pick.

You weren't against drafting Coby from what I recall, but you weren't in favor of him either. I think you were open to the possibility he would be selected and preferred White to Garland but that didn't mean you were excited about it.

I think there were 4 categories discussed outside of trading the pick that everyone fell into.
1. Draft Coby
2. Draft Garland
3. Draft one of wings projected to go around #6 (Hunter, Culver, Reddish)
4. Reach for a PF (Hayes, Rai, Clarke, Washington, other)

Of course some wanted to trade the pick also but it's too hard to guess what the return would be and what trades were out there so everyone came to terms with 1 of those 4 outcomes happening and made their choice as to which they preferred. I think I was one of the only posters who was in the "Draft Coby" camp as my preferred outcome, even more than trading the pick. If I had to guess I'd say most posters were in the 3rd camp followed by #2 and then #1 or #4 being fairly even as the 3rd outcome.

The way it's been discussed since the draft went down though it seems like the "Draft Coby" camp has grown substantially. I don't remember anyone else being that in favor of him though. The Players Tribune piece from the day or two before the draft helped win some people over to the idea of taking him but I don't think he was anyone else's #1 choice.