2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[1Sun]

My issue with this is that it potentially complicates free agency. Let's say we trade Ariza for Fultz and Fultz is clearly a dud by the end of the season...Now we've got an extra $10 million on the cap, limiting our point guard options in the offseason. The best thing Ariza offers to this team right now is offseason cap space, and that could be a valuable thing.

And with the state we're in, what free agent worth any kind of money will actually be interested in signing here (as opposed to us having to grossly overpay the likes of Trevor Ariza, or Tyson Chandler, yet again)?

 

[SirStefan32]

Regardless of who may or may not sign with the Suns, it's always better to have the cap space then not have it.
Perhaps Durant won't sign, but I would sure as hell rather have $35M available than $20M. Throwing random names out there, but I'd rather be able to sign Randle and Dinwiddie than just Randle, for example.

 

[1Sun]

Regardless of who may or may not sign with the Suns, it's always better to have the cap space then not have it.
Perhaps Durant won't sign, but I would sure as hell rather have $35M available than $20M. Throwing random names out there, but I'd rather be able to sign Randle and Dinwiddie than just Randle, for example.

We have had tons of cap space for the last 10 years, and look where it got us. Cap space doesn't mean diddly squat if it is never put to good, productive use.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Regardless of who may or may not sign with the Suns, it's always better to have the cap space then not have it.
Perhaps Durant won't sign, but I would sure as hell rather have $35M available than $20M. Throwing random names out there, but I'd rather be able to sign Randle and Dinwiddie than just Randle, for example.

Not to mention it would be nice to have the possibility to go after the top guys as well. If you have 25m you at least have a chance to chase someone that would make a big difference immediately. If you only have 10m available than you can't even consider trying to go after those guys.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

We have had tons of cap space for the last 10 years, and look where it got us. Cap space doesn't mean diddly squat if it is never put to good, productive use.

That's a great sentiment and all, but it is still better to have the space than to not have it. Especially if the players that are taking all of it up aren't any good. It's feasible that Fultz could be taking up 10m and not doing anything for the team whatsoever. I would rather have the possibility of chasing some of the good players in free agency than just not have the space at all.

 

[1Sun]

Not to mention it would be nice to have the possibility to go after the top guys as well. If you have 25m you at least have a chance to chase someone that would make a big difference immediately. If you only have 10m available than you can't even consider trying to go after those guys.

Serious question: Which NBA player worth 25m do you think the Suns even have a remote chance to sign in 2019?

 

[Errntknght]

IMO, we dodged a bullet when Fultz went before our pick in the draft. I certainly don't want to take a flyer on him now that his flaws have surfaced. His salary alone makes him high risk, and my opinion is low chance of large gain. After the 8th we'll know the story on Dinwiddie who is a much better option, if it materializes. And, if it doesn't there are likely to be some other good options in the summer.

Hell no on Fultz!

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Serious question: Which NBA player worth 25m do you think the Suns even have a remote chance to sign in 2019?

That would require me to be inside their heads. For starters there may be more good free agents than there are good teams to sign them. Phoenix is a good city to live in and a lot of NBA players agree. Even Durant has mentioned Phoenix specifically as a city he could see himself living in. The team clearly has young talent (much more so than it has in recent history) and it is quite feasible that a good free agent would consider playing along side Booker and Ayton.

The other side of the coin is what Stefan alluded to and that is the possibility of going after a couple mid tier free agents like Randle and Dinwiddie. For a team that has more than one hole the ability to sign more than one solid free agent could make a big difference.

 

[1Sun]

That would require me to be inside their heads. For starters there may be more good free agents than there are good teams to sign them. Phoenix is a good city to live in and a lot of NBA players agree. Even Durant has mentioned Phoenix specifically as a city he could see himself living in. The team clearly has young talent (much more so than it has in recent history) and it is quite feasible that a good free agent would consider playing along side Booker and Ayton.

The other side of the coin is what Stefan alluded to and that is the possibility of going after a couple mid tier free agents like Randle and Dinwiddie. For a team that has more than one hole the ability to sign more than one solid free agent could make a big difference.

That would be great, except I don't think we are even in a position to attract the likes of Randle or Dinwiddie unless we grossly overpay them the way we did Trevor Ariza and Tyson Chandler.

 

[devilalum]

Like who?

Kemba - he is staying put
Rozier - No way for me, he is incredibly overrated.
Bledsoe - yeah right
Dragic - he's old
Russell - I am not sold on him
Rubio - He is stinking it up this season and he is older
Dinwiddle is going to be resigned
Brogden - I would love him but he is restricted and isn't going anywhere

I don't see these PG's you are talking about. Nobody that remotely excites me.

Any other fa pg's should be available easily with our cap room

Yep

Free agency is pie in the sky, especially for our dysfunctional franchise.


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[Hoop Head]

That would be great, except I don't think we are even in a position to attract the likes of Randle or Dinwiddie unless we grossly overpay them the way we did Trevor Ariza and Tyson Chandler.

So we surrender early and go after Fultz, who has been awful, for what reason exactly? On the off chance he gets it together here? There is a better chance that the Suns could acquire quality free agents with their cap space than Fultz becomes a quality player. That's all there is to it. He's not even the ideal type of PG you pair with Booker, which makes the gamble that much more of a question. It would be shortsighted to give up on free agency this coming summer for the chance to watch Fultz choke in a Suns uniform.

 

[Proximo]

So we surrender early and go after Fultz, who has been awful, for what reason exactly? On the off chance he gets it together here? There is a better chance that the Suns could acquire quality free agents with their cap space than Fultz becomes a quality player. That's all there is to it. He's not even the ideal type of PG you pair with Booker, which makes the gamble that much more of a question. It would be shortsighted to give up on free agency this coming summer for the chance to watch Fultz choke in a Suns uniform.

Well I don't think it is an off chance. I think the odds are at least 50/50 he gets his shot back in the year and a half we have him.

The guy did know how to shoot - really well. He can still do everything else.

What is more likely - Josh Jackson becoming a good shooter or Fultz? I think the answer is clearly Fultz because he has already done it before - yet I bet you don't want to trade Jackson for next to nothing because his salary is too high.

But if you do - we can always do that to clear up $7 million or so for salary cap room.

 

[SirStefan32]

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Obviously, a very small sample when it comes to Okobo, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Proximo]

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Obviously, a very small sample when it comes to Okobo, but interesting nonetheless.

Too small of a sample size to really know anything - but honestly I don't get why people think Shai is going to be some kind of great PG at this point (even if he is we can't change the past).

I think Okobo and him are similar prospects.

Really it seems to me most Suns fans like to pretend there was an easy fix for the losing that management screwed up on. That is usually not the case - If we had gotten Shai instead of bridges we would still have almost the identical record right now.

It's like everyone bashing the Sun's for picking Jackson 4th. I remember clearly that draft - and he is who I wanted over Tatum and Fox. The Suns and I were both obviously wrong, but it was not an unreasonable opinion - and actually the consensus correct pick at the time.

Honestly the same thing is true with the 2016 draft, at the time Bender and Chriss were logical picks - obviously they sucked hard, but so did most of that draft.

Even the Kyrie deal - yeah it would have been great now and was probably a mistake - but how likely is it he would have resigned with us this offseason - not likely.

Really the whole oh if we had just done this or that crap really bothers me. We should just be focused on the present and the future, not the past.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i would not consider trading JJ and Okobo together.
one of them will be better in the future than whoever we could get for them now.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Like who?

Kemba - he is staying put
Rozier - No way for me, he is incredibly overrated.
Bledsoe - yeah right
Dragic - he's old
Russell - I am not sold on him
Rubio - He is stinking it up this season and he is older
Dinwiddle is going to be resigned
Brogden - I would love him but he is restricted and isn't going anywhere

I don't see these PG's you are talking about. Nobody that remotely excites me.

Any other fa pg's should be available easily with our cap room

I'm not so sure about Kemba, Dinwiddie or Brogdon. I think Spencer and Malcolm are both borderline starters that are going to want actual starter salary. Of the two, I'd prefer Dinwiddie but I'm not in love with either.

I really like Kemba but it's scary how bad they've been during his tenure in close games. And if his great start this season gets him All NBA recognition (quite possible), he will be eligible for a Super Max. In today's NBA, just being eligible is being interpreted as "having earned it" and IMO no one earns that much of the salary cap. I can't see Charlotte going down the John Wall road that leads straight to cap hell.

 

[azsouthendzone]

Maybe I’m overvaluing Suns talent but there are some other teams around the league that seem to be winning more with less.

Is the Suns disfunction the result of coaching or ownership?

Or both?


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Clippers have way more talent on the court and off.

 

[Proximo]

I'm not so sure about Kemba, Dinwiddie or Brogdon. I think Spencer and Malcolm are both borderline starters that are going to want actual starter salary. Of the two, I'd prefer Dinwiddie but I'm not in love with either.

I really like Kemba but it's scary how bad they've been during his tenure in close games. And if his great start this season gets him All NBA recognition (quite possible), he will be eligible for a Super Max. In today's NBA, just being eligible is being interpreted as "having earned it" and IMO no one earns that much of the salary cap. I can't see Charlotte going down the John Wall road that leads straight to cap hell.

Yeah, I would agree those are the three most attractive guys.

None are going to be available to the Suns - they are all staying with their own teams. I guess there is an outside shot Kemba leaves - but he isn't going to the Suns.

Let's be real, the Suns have to look at 2nd and 3rd tier free agents, and hopefully identify one with upside potential, not settle for a broken down one like Drajic or Rubio.

 

[Hoop Head]

Too small of a sample size to really know anything - but honestly I don't get why people think Shai is going to be some kind of great PG at this point (even if he is we can't change the past).

I think Okobo and him are similar prospects.

Really it seems to me most Suns fans like to pretend there was an easy fix for the losing that management screwed up on. That is usually not the case - If we had gotten Shai instead of bridges we would still have almost the identical record right now.

It's like everyone bashing the Sun's for picking Jackson 4th. I remember clearly that draft - and he is who I wanted over Tatum and Fox. The Suns and I were both obviously wrong, but it was not an unreasonable opinion - and actually the consensus correct pick at the time.

Honestly the same thing is true with the 2016 draft, at the time Bender and Chriss were logical picks - obviously they sucked hard, but so did most of that draft.

Even the Kyrie deal - yeah it would have been great now and was probably a mistake - but how likely is it he would have resigned with us this offseason - not likely.

Really the whole oh if we had just done this or that crap really bothers me. We should just be focused on the present and the future, not the past.

I agree with all of this but the bolded part in particular bothers me. I remember when the Suns fell to 4 in the Jackson draft how mad some people were that we lost out on the chance to take Jackson, with it being seen as a 3 player draft of sorts with Fultz, Ball, and Jackson going #1, #2, #3. It's the ultimate revisionist history since we never had a chance to draft Tatum, who is now the most coveted player from that draft. Everyone knew JJ would take time, there was plenty of patience last year but once he started rolling towards February and March most people had packed Warren's bags as a piece to be dealt during the offseason because JJ was our answer at SF and our 2nd star. Winning the lottery and getting Ayton lowered Jackson's spot in the talent hierarchy on this team but a lot of people assumed we had our "Big 3" until JJ sucked in Summer League. It's weird how Summer League turned people against certain players but at the same time if someone played well then it was discounted as Summer League and it didn't matter. I couldn't make sense of that. Why was Summer League enough to call someone bad but not enough to call someone good? Especially when we saw the "bad" player perform much better in the NBA already.

 

[Proximo]

I agree with all of this but the bolded part in particular bothers me. I remember when the Suns fell to 4 in the Jackson draft how mad some people were that we lost out on the chance to take Jackson, with it being seen as a 3 player draft of sorts with Fultz, Ball, and Jackson going #1, #2, #3. It's the ultimate revisionist history since we never had a chance to draft Tatum, who is now the most coveted player from that draft. Everyone knew JJ would take time, there was plenty of patience last year but once he started rolling towards February and March most people had packed Warren's bags as a piece to be dealt during the offseason because JJ was our answer at SF and our 2nd star. Winning the lottery and getting Ayton lowered Jackson's spot in the talent hierarchy on this team but a lot of people assumed we had our "Big 3" until JJ sucked in Summer League. It's weird how Summer League turned people against certain players but at the same time if someone played well then it was discounted as Summer League and it didn't matter. I couldn't make sense of that. Why was Summer League enough to call someone bad but not enough to call someone good? Especially when we saw the "bad" player perform much better in the NBA already.

Jackson is one of the strangest players I have ever followed. He self sabotages like crazy. If he would just play to his strengths he could at least be a good role player, but he seems to envision himself as a star even though he clearly isn't.

I am still not sure if Jackson is going to get it together, but it is not time to give up yet - he at least deserves the rest of this season and the beginning of next to make a decision.

 

[1Sun]

Yeah, I would agree those are the three most attractive guys.

None are going to be available to the Suns - they are all staying with their own teams. I guess there is an outside shot Kemba leaves - but he isn't going to the Suns.

Let's be real, the Suns have to look at 2nd and 3rd tier free agents, and hopefully identify one with upside potential, not settle for a broken down one like Drajic or Rubio.

Then that doesn't require $25 million in cap space...unless they are going to overpay drastically, in which case I hope the temptation to do so is removed entirely by that cap space being tied up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Jackson is one of the strangest players I have ever followed. He self sabotages like crazy. If he would just play to his strengths he could at least be a good role player, but he seems to envision himself as a star even though he clearly isn't.

I am still not sure if Jackson is going to get it together, but it is not time to give up yet - he at least deserves the rest of this season and the beginning of next to make a decision.

What makes you think JJ thinks of himself as a star? He doesn’t coast, he plays hard every play. He tries on defense. I’ve yet to hear him complain off the court. What makes you make that statement?

 

[JCSunsfan]

What makes you think JJ thinks of himself as a star? He doesn’t coast, he plays hard every play. He tries on defense. I’ve yet to hear him complain off the court. What makes you make that statement?

I think the problems with JJ are easily fixable. He just needs to focus on his D. He needs to be a shut down defender. If he can do that and just let the offense flow instead of forcing it, he will be a very good player in this league.

 

[Proximo]

What makes you think JJ thinks of himself as a star? He doesn’t coast, he plays hard every play. He tries on defense. I’ve yet to hear him complain off the court. What makes you make that statement?

What I mean by that is he feels he has to score. He takes bad shots, just to take a shot. He throws risky dumb passes I guess because he thinks he can, but often turns it over.

He goes one thousand miles an hour, so fast he can't make a layup, when half the speed under control would work better but not be as flashy.

I'm not saying he has a bad attitude, he just thinks he is a much better player than he actually is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree with all of this but the bolded part in particular bothers me. I remember when the Suns fell to 4 in the Jackson draft how mad some people were that we lost out on the chance to take Jackson, with it being seen as a 3 player draft of sorts with Fultz, Ball, and Jackson going #1, #2, #3. It's the ultimate revisionist history since we never had a chance to draft Tatum, who is now the most coveted player from that draft. Everyone knew JJ would take time, there was plenty of patience last year but once he started rolling towards February and March most people had packed Warren's bags as a piece to be dealt during the offseason because JJ was our answer at SF and our 2nd star. Winning the lottery and getting Ayton lowered Jackson's spot in the talent hierarchy on this team but a lot of people assumed we had our "Big 3" until JJ sucked in Summer League. It's weird how Summer League turned people against certain players but at the same time if someone played well then it was discounted as Summer League and it didn't matter. I couldn't make sense of that. Why was Summer League enough to call someone bad but not enough to call someone good? Especially when we saw the "bad" player perform much better in the NBA already.

I don't remember it quite the same way you do. I don't have a problem with us taking Jackson but he was never in my top 4. But neither was Fox. I liked Markkanen, Ball, Tatum and Isaac in that order IIRC although I was against taking Ball because of his father. I wasn't alone on Jackson either, I had conversations with other posters here that were just as down on him as I was. But he was typically listed as the 3rd or 4th pick and you can't fault his college success so I think even if he ultimately fails, it was a reasonable pick.

As for summer league, that's always the way it's viewed IMO. A future star is expected to shine in summer league but shining in summer league doesn't mean you're going to be a star. I was shocked at how poorly JJ played in the summer although it hasn't caused me to write him off. I'm worried about him but the simple fact he plays hard every game gives me hope for his future.