2017-2018 Draft Prospects watch.

[Cheesebeef]

But there is no guarantee that any of the bigs will be the next David Robinson. David Robinson is literally THE best-case scenario for Ayton (or any of the other bigs in this draft.) That's no different than saying that Doncic is the next Magic Johnson.

Oh my god... there is NO WAY he’s the next Magic Johnson.

First he’s going to be the 6’8 Dragic... then he’s going to magically get more athletic and more athletic than other players his age... and now there’s even a remote possibility he ends up the next Magic Johnson?

Come the f on...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Again I'm not suggesting that he will make an athletic transformation or anything. I just think he will almost certainly become slightly more athletic. Though I am on record as saying that I think his athleticism is already underrated by some of you guys and I think he will be a great player at his current level of athleticism.

Let me ask you this. Using a percentage number how much more athletic would he have to be for you to consider him a top prospect? Would you be happy if he was 10%, 15%, 20% more athletic? I just think it is an arbitrary reason to pass on someone with Doncic's skill set simply because you think he just isn't quite athletic enough.

It’s really not. At 6’8 he’s a tweeter who will be going up against guys bigger and faster than him.

Again... I’m not saying he’ll be BAD. He could prob be pretty good. But the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of generational talents... talents at #1 that can define title winners and sustain long roads of contention have either great size, great athleticism or both.

He has neither and I think that when you draft that high, you don’t go with the high floor guy... especially when you have a high floor high ceiling guy in Ayton above him.

I just don’t see him as a high ceiling guy. I’ve watched so many different highlights of him and he’s got nice plays, but I’ve never been taken aback by anything he did. At the first or second pick in a loaded draft, you have to score someone who does.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh my god... there is NO WAY he’s the next Magic Johnson.

First he’s going to be the 6’8 Dragic... then he’s going to magically get more athletic and more athletic than other players his age... and now there’s even a remote possibility he ends up the next Magic Johnson?

Come the f on...

Right, exactly! Ayton isn't gonna be David Robinson either. That's the whole point. You are proclaiming the guy you like to be the next David Robinson.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Sooners have only won 8 of the last 10 games but I remember when Trae Young was all the rage for one of the top three picks. I don't hear him mentioned much anymore.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It’s really not. At 6’8 he’s a tweeter who will be going up against guys bigger and faster than him.

Again... I’m not saying he’ll be BAD. He could prob be pretty good. But the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of generational talents... talents at #1 that can define title winners and sustain long roads of contention have either great size, great athleticism or both.

He has neither and I think that when you draft that high, you don’t go with the high floor guy... especially when you have a high floor high ceiling guy in Ayton above him.

I just don’t see him as a high ceiling guy. I’ve watched so many different highlights of him and he’s got nice plays, but I’ve never been taken aback by anything he did. At the first or second pick in a loaded draft, you have to score someone who does.

He has great size for a guard. He will create some serious mismatches for smaller guards because we could legitimately have lineups where the smallest guy on the floor is about 6'7".

 

[WildBB]

He has great size for a guard. He will create some serious mismatches for smaller guards because we could legitimately have lineups where the smallest guy on the floor is about 6'7".

As enticing as that sounds, they really need a big to set the defense. They need some consistency/competency on that end. They don't have that.

 

[SirStefan32]

As enticing as that sounds, they really need a big to set the defense. They need some consistency/competency on that end. They don't have that.

While I agree, I do want to point out that neither of the top-rated bigs are really defensive players. Ayton might be a worse defender than Shaq, and Bagley isn't much better. Additionally, the Suns are not good enough just yet to not take the best player available. I maintain that's Ayton, but he isn't a defensive presence.

 

[Mainstreet]

Doncic is not a top defensive player either to be fair.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Doncic is not a top defensive player either to be fair.

That's the thing. Doncic isn't being represented as a defensive player, but people on here are comparing Ayton to David Robinson who was a great defensive player.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's the thing. Doncic isn't being represented as a defensive player, but people on here are comparing Ayton to David Robinson who was a great defensive player.

I wouldn't make the David Robinson comparison either.

Did you say who Doncic reminds you of besides Chris Mullin (that's on me). LOL

 

[SirStefan32]

That's the thing. Doncic isn't being represented as a defensive player, but people on here are comparing Ayton to David Robinson who was a great defensive player.

Right, exactly! THAT is the thing that frustrates me to no end. You have two players, and they both have potential, as well as some major flaws. People completely ignore the flaws of one player, and compare him to one of the best players at his position in the last three decades. Then they proceed to exaggerate every weakness of the guy they don't like and compare him to Mike Millers of the world. All things being equal, I am taking Ayton too, but the irrational arguments and comparisons are driving me crazy.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I wouldn't make the David Robinson comparison either.

Did you say who Doncic reminds you of besides Chris Mullin (that's on me). LOL

An elite facilitating version of Hayward is the best comparison that I have seen.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right, exactly! THAT is the thing that frustrates me to no end. You have two players, and they both have potential, as well as some major flaws. People completely ignore the flaws of one player, and compare him to one of the best players at his position in the last three decades. Then they proceed to exaggerate every weakness of the guy they don't like and compare him to Mike Millers of the world. All things being equal, I am taking Ayton too, but the irrational arguments and comparisons are driving me crazy.

I don't think everyone is doing that... perhaps some. IMO, at this stage we should be kicking the tires on every player entering the draft. The players have not even had team workouts. I do not want to decide who I would draft 1-10 at this point. We see how Fultz and Ball have fared thus far in the last draft and they were drafted 1-2.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh I agree. It's definitely not something that everyone is doing.

 

[Mainstreet]

An elite facilitating version of Hayward is the best comparison that I have seen.

I like Gordon Hayward a lot and the Suns reportedly have liked him for a long time as well... at least according to rumors.

 

[JCSunsfan]

What? No on “gaining some” athleticism thing. That’s just going overboard to make your argument better.

1) There’s been plenty of guys knocked for average athleticism. And they stay that way. I’d love to see examples of guys who made any kind of noticeable change in their athleticism

2) Even if that theory DID have weight, wouldn’t it go for EVERYONE his age, being able to gain athleticism. And if that’s the same for everyone, everyone gets more athletic and so he’s still stuck at a disadvantage.

But seriously... there’s NEVER been on media person that I’ve ever heard say.. “he’s average athletically but by the time he’s 25, that could much different.

Generally, I agree with you. But it is possible to gain athleticism between 18 and 21. Olympic athletes do it all the time. The body is still developing. But, usually its strength, not necessarily speed or agility.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Generally, I agree with you. But it is possible to gain athleticism between 18 and 21. Olympic athletes do it all the time. The body is still developing. But, usually its strength, not necessarily speed or agility.

Strength I’ve got no issue with.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It’s really not. At 6’8 he’s a tweeter who will be going up against guys bigger and faster than him.

Again... I’m not saying he’ll be BAD. He could prob be pretty good. But the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of generational talents... talents at #1 that can define title winners and sustain long roads of contention have either great size, great athleticism or both.

He has neither and I think that when you draft that high, you don’t go with the high floor guy... especially when you have a high floor high ceiling guy in Ayton above him.

I just don’t see him as a high ceiling guy. I’ve watched so many different highlights of him and he’s got nice plays, but I’ve never been taken aback by anything he did. At the first or second pick in a loaded draft, you have to score someone who does.

But if he’s a pg he does have the great size.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But if he’s a pg he does have the great size.

He’s going to get abused on D by Super quick guards or have to be hidden on D and turn the starting lineup upside down because of switches. If you have a chance at a complete player... a guy who could dominate at BOTH ends or at least be very effective at both ends, you don’t pass that up for a guy who will constantly putting you at a disadvantage on D.

I’m sick of this team being bad on D. Moving forward, two our three studs (if Donicic ended up a stud) would be average at best defensively. That ain’t winning us a title.

 

[SirStefan32]

He’s going to get abused on D by Super quick guards or have to be hidden on D and turn the starting lineup upside down because of switches. If you have a chance at a complete player... a guy who could dominate at BOTH ends or at least be very effective at both ends, you don’t pass that up for a guy who will constantly putting you at a disadvantage on D.

I’m sick of this team being bad on D. Moving forward, two our three studs (if Donicic ended up a stud) would be average at best defensively. That ain’t winning us a title.

If defense is the litmus test, then Ayton fails miserably. He makes Len look like Dikembe Mutombo. If you want to make an argument for Ayton, it's simple. Suns don't have any interior presence on offense. Ayton can score in the low post, catch lobs, roll to the basket, draw double teams, thus giving Booker, Bender, and other shooters some wide-open looks. At the same time he can grab some rebounds and hit some mid-range jumpers. That's my argument for Ayton, based on reality. Campaigning for Ayton on the platform of defense is a fantasy. He is an awful defender. Moving forward, two of our four best players (if Auton becomes one of the four best players) will be average at best on defense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If defense is the litmus test, then Ayton fails miserably. He makes Len look like Dikembe Mutombo. If you want to make an argument for Ayton, it's simple. Suns don't have any interior presence on offense. Ayton can score in the low post, catch lobs, roll to the basket, draw double teams, thus giving Booker, Bender, and other shooters some wide-open looks. At the same time he can grab some rebounds and hit some mid-range jumpers. That's my argument for Ayton, based on reality. Campaigning for Ayton on the platform of defense is a fantasy. He is an awful defender. Moving forward, two of our four best players (if Auton becomes one of the four best players) will be average at best on defense.

See... here’s where we differ. I can actually ADMIT Ayton’s play on the defensive end needs A LOT of work. But there is no doubt he has the PHYSICAL tools to dominate.

I’m also not a Sean Miller fan and think Ayton is getting awful coaching.

But here’s the difference again between Ayton and Donicic defensively... Ayton HAS the tools to be a great defender. Donicic simply doesn’t from a physical standpoint. Could he be okay? Sure. But he doesn’t have the athletic prowess to be a difference maker on BOTH ends of the court.

So... if I’m looking at two players... one of which is a very skilled offensive player with perfect size/athleticism at his position and has all the tools to possibly to do the same on D, I’m going to take that guy over the swing-man, who’s current skills might run into trouble on both ends of the court against more athletic opponents.

 

[SirStefan32]

See... here’s where we differ. I can actually ADMIT Ayton’s play on the defensive end needs A LOT of work. But there is no doubt he has the PHYSICAL tools to dominate.

I’m also not a Sean Miller fan and think Ayton is getting awful coaching.

But here’s the difference again between Ayton and Donicic defensively... Ayton HAS the tools to be a great defender. Donicic simply doesn’t from a physical standpoint. Could he be okay? Sure. But he doesn’t have the athletic prowess to be a difference maker on BOTH ends of the court.

So... if I’m looking at two players... one of which is a very skilled offensive player with perfect size/athleticism at his position and has all the tools to possibly to do the same on D, I’m going to take that guy over the swing-man, who’s current skills might run into trouble on both ends of the court against more athletic opponents.

You and I mostly agree when you put it that way. It's when you proclaim him to be the next David Robinson that I end up disagreeing. I will (again) point out that Ayton's work ethic has been labeled as questionable since he was in High School, so I am skeptical as to how much he will improve defensively.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You and I mostly agree when you put it that way. It's when you proclaim him to be the next David Robinson that I end up disagreeing. I will (again) point out that Ayton's work ethic has been labeled as questionable since he was in High School, so I am skeptical as to how much he will improve defensively.

No... see, I think his CEILING is the next Robinson.

I’m always thinking ceilings with that high of a pick.

But yes... he’s got his warts too. I just think at worst, that guy could at least be dominant inside and provide the perfect inside out game for Book.

Everyone’s got their eyes on the Warriors and small ball right now. That’s fine for teams trying to beat them in the next couple years. But they are the anomaly and their OUTRAGEOUS amount of talent at that size isn’t going to be easily duplicated.

When their reign is over right around the time hopefully we’ll be good, I think the NBA settles a bit and having a devastated inside/outside game with a Booker/Ayton combo just presents more problems for teams, IMO.

 

[Raindog]

First off, Doncic isn't playing PG in the NBA EVER... no way, no how. At 6-8, he would have to be some otherworldly kind of athlete to even consider that, and he's not.

Secondly, I am hard pressed to find what anyone sees as so out of this world about him anyway. Yes, he has a decently mature court awareness and maybe above average handle for his age. But what does that really translate into? He shows no particular signs of being an outstanding shooter, rebounder, defender. I highly doubt he will be an especially high volume scorer, especially being defended by mostly superior athletes at the next level. If he does reach his full potential you maybe end up with a guy who at best is an offensively sound one way player, maybe a decent third or fourth option on a good team.

I see his ceiling as being something like a 15 ppg, 5 rpg, 6 apg kind of player. Not bad... assuming he even reaches his full potential. But not something you pass on two potentially all-league talents like Ayton and Bagley for... or even two high ceiling bigs like Bamba and Jackson.

I would be fine with Doncic as a pick if we end up slotted at somewhere like 5 or 6, or maybe even at 4. But as the top choice with some of the other guys on the board this year? It is sheer folly.

 

[SirStefan32]

No... see, I think his CEILING is the next Robinson.

I’m always thinking ceilings with that high of a pick.

But yes... he’s got his warts too. I just think at worst, that guy could at least be dominant inside and provide the perfect inside out game for Book.

Everyone’s got their eyes on the Warriors and small ball right now. That’s fine for teams trying to beat them in the next couple years. But they are the anomaly and their OUTRAGEOUS amount of talent at that size isn’t going to be easily duplicated.

When their reign is over right around the time hopefully we’ll be good, I think the NBA settles a bit and having a devastated inside/outside game with a Booker/Ayton combo just presents more problems for teams, IMO.

And we agree again, though I am confident he's not reaching that ceiling. Robinson was one hell of a defender. Ayton just isn't any good defensively. But either way, I do agree that Booker/Ayton is a better combo than Booker/Doncic, especially considering we have Jackson and Warren. If we didn't have those two guys, I'd be more interested in Doncic, but with the current roster, I don't see how you pass on Ayton, even with bad defense and questionable work ethic.