LOL: Cardinals Film Room - Jonathan Cooper Fails to Block Anyone

[D-Dogg]

Buc is a stud.

 

[cardpa]

I think we can all agree that we generally expect a 1st round pick to step in and make sizeable contributions right away. We also expect a 2nd round pick to contribute in a limited capacity and have it grow larger as the season wears on. The only exception to this would be a QB pick who you draft as a heir apparent to a entrenched starter or barring injury and can't play in their rookie season.

I also think most of us would agree that if injury prevents the 1st round pick from playing in their rookie year our reasonable expectation is they rehab and bury themselves in the playbook so they are ready to roll once the next pre season camp starts. Our expectation is that in their second year they still step in to make a sizeable contribution and the learning curve is shortened because they have been working with the training staff rehabbing and strengthening their body as well as getting more knowledgeable with the playbook.

Cooper has not met these reasonable expectations no matter how you measure it. I agree K9 has beaten Cooper like a , however he does make good points.

Unless I am wrong, and I have been known to be wrong before however Cooper's insertion into the lineup coincided with Williams insertion into the lineup and increased playing time for Taylor. Could it be Williams/Taylor has just as much if not more to do the revival of the running game as Cooper does? I think this has been an overlooked point.

 

[40yearfan]

I think we can all agree that we generally expect a 1st round pick to step in and make sizeable contributions right away. We also expect a 2nd round pick to contribute in a limited capacity and have it grow larger as the season wears on. The only exception to this would be a QB pick who you draft as a heir apparent to a entrenched starter or barring injury and can't play in their rookie season.

I also think most of us would agree that if injury prevents the 1st round pick from playing in their rookie year our reasonable expectation is they rehab and bury themselves in the playbook so they are ready to roll once the next pre season camp starts. Our expectation is that in their second year they still step in to make a sizeable contribution and the learning curve is shortened because they have been working with the training staff rehabbing and strengthening their body as well as getting more knowledgeable with the playbook.

Cooper has not met these reasonable expectations no matter how you measure it. I agree K9 has beaten Cooper like a , however he does make good points.

Unless I am wrong, and I have been known to be wrong before however Cooper's insertion into the lineup coincided with Williams insertion into the lineup and increased playing time for Taylor. Could it be Williams/Taylor has just as much if not more to do the revival of the running game as Cooper does? I think this has been an overlooked point.

I'm sure that has something to do with it, but I am also noting holes opening up for the RB that weren't there before.

 

[Russ Smith]

Buc is a stud.

I love him but I have to admit I'm still wondering what his ultimate position is going to be. He's done very well in this hybrid LB/SS thing but it's quite clear now he's not great in coverage at the moment.

And note, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I see no reason to say we need to get a more traditional LB/S setup in the near future, we're a terrific run defense right now. the pass defense will get better if we get some edge rushing so we don't have to blitz as often. I'm completely fine with Deonne staying in this role, I just wonder if that's the plan.

 

[football karma]

I love him but I have to admit I'm still wondering what his ultimate position is going to be. He's done very well in this hybrid LB/SS thing but it's quite clear now he's not great in coverage at the moment.

And note, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I see no reason to say we need to get a more traditional LB/S setup in the near future, we're a terrific run defense right now. the pass defense will get better if we get some edge rushing so we don't have to blitz as often. I'm completely fine with Deonne staying in this role, I just wonder if that's the plan.

its interesting: the league seems to be slowly following the college spread movement ---

less power running, more up tempo with four wides ---- I think it puts a premium on guys who can play well in space, close and be physical.

IIRC, at the beginning of the year Bowles noted thay spent something like 55-60% of the prior year snaps in nickel D---

the standard 4-3, or 3-4 seems in the process of being replaced with a 4-2 or a 3-3 with 5 dbs. A guy who can play the pass, yet also big enough to hold up in the run game seems like a pretty valuable piece.

now: was this prescient drafting or dumb luck? no idea there.

 

[BigRedRage]

I love him but I have to admit I'm still wondering what his ultimate position is going to be. He's done very well in this hybrid LB/SS thing but it's quite clear now he's not great in coverage at the moment.

And note, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I see no reason to say we need to get a more traditional LB/S setup in the near future, we're a terrific run defense right now. the pass defense will get better if we get some edge rushing so we don't have to blitz as often. I'm completely fine with Deonne staying in this role, I just wonder if that's the plan.

When he goes to SS he should be playing more zone than man to man which might make his coverage ability look much better.

I always prefered playing 2 deep zone as a safety over having to line up against a WR. Where I lacked speed i made up with taking the right angles and etc.

 

[Russ Smith]

When he goes to SS he should be playing more zone than man to man which might make his coverage ability look much better.

I always prefered playing 2 deep zone as a safety over having to line up against a WR. Where I lacked speed i made up with taking the right angles and etc.

I guess I was saying he might not have to go to SS. It seems to me like what we're doing now is working. We might not have to have the traditional 2 CB 2 safety alignment with guys like Deonne and Tyrann who are sort of hybrid players.

Golden State has the best record in the NBA, the current lineup features no true C, a 4 who shoots jumpers, an undersized 4, a 3 who shoots jumpers and 2 guards. their 2 best bigs are injured, but they're still winning because they have lots of good players and they're versatile.

We are doing the same thing on our defense we have a very unusual alignment, but it works. You would assume over time OC's will figure it out, but Bowles so far has been pretty good at tweaking it when it looks like someone figures it out.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I love him but I have to admit I'm still wondering what his ultimate position is going to be. He's done very well in this hybrid LB/SS thing but it's quite clear now he's not great in coverage at the moment.

And note, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I see no reason to say we need to get a more traditional LB/S setup in the near future, we're a terrific run defense right now. the pass defense will get better if we get some edge rushing so we don't have to blitz as often. I'm completely fine with Deonne staying in this role, I just wonder if that's the plan.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[BigRedRage]

I guess I was saying he might not have to go to SS. It seems to me like what we're doing now is working. We might not have to have the traditional 2 CB 2 safety alignment with guys like Deonne and Tyrann who are sort of hybrid players.

Golden State has the best record in the NBA, the current lineup features no true C, a 4 who shoots jumpers, an undersized 4, a 3 who shoots jumpers and 2 guards. their 2 best bigs are injured, but they're still winning because they have lots of good players and they're versatile.

We are doing the same thing on our defense we have a very unusual alignment, but it works. You would assume over time OC's will figure it out, but Bowles so far has been pretty good at tweaking it when it looks like someone figures it out.

I agree but if we ask him to play SS he may look better in coverage is all. We have a nice DB room right now so I am all good with it but if we lose rashad and TJ soon, I want a new fast LB and move Cannon back to SS.

 

[WisconsinCard]

What is with some of you jerks? You seem to be on here just looking for any poster you can criticize. If you don't want to reply or comment on a person's thread or post, then don't. I doubt many of those who continually bash other posters on here are in Mensa.

People are just trying to liven up the site sometimes or add something when the site is somewhat dead. Not all posts have to be to your particular liking. It seems like some of you spend so much time on here judging other people and their posts, I would think you probably do that on all sites you visit. Why not get a real life and go out in the world and converse with real live people?

Why not stop judging people and simply comment on the Cardinals and what the guy is trying to say without attacking him personally. If you disagree with the content of his post, fine. Say so in a constructive way. Not all posts are gems for your personal entertainment.

LIGHTEN UP and try a little decent kindness and courtesy. How in hell can some of you have such disdain for another poster. You aren't Gods, just a fellow human being looking for a little distraction from real life and what is really important in the world.

Sorry, but this is way overdue to be said.

You only know what has been going on for a couple of years.

 

[WisconsinCard]

This is the first thing I thought of when you said nutjob and Jake Plummer in the same sentence:

Ah yes the ode to Jake...instant classic post, maybe the post of all time!!!!

 

[NJCardFan]

Honestly I'm not getting the Cooper hate. He is essentially a rookie who's started all of what, 3 games? And people are expecting him to be the 2nd coming of Larry Little or Jerry Kramer or Gene Upshaw right out of the gate. He's still learning. No matter what, he's still leaps and bounds better than Fanaika.

 

[Chopper0080]

Honestly I'm not getting the Cooper hate. He is essentially a rookie who's started all of what, 3 games? And people are expecting him to be the 2nd coming of Larry Little or Jerry Kramer or Gene Upshaw right out of the gate. He's still learning. No matter what, he's still leaps and bounds better than Fanaika.

LOL, there is an entire other post about this, but here is the summary.

No one is complaining because he isn't the 2nd coming of anything.

Any critique is because from an evaluation standpoint, his play has been the worst on our line.

He isn't "essentially" anything. He is a second year player who was drafted in the first round because he had ability which warranted that draft position. He did not EARN a starting spot, and when GIVEN the opportunity to start due to injury, he has not played with the fundamentals which is expected from a player who has had time to specifically work on those.

To your point comparing him to Fanaika...from an ability standpoint he is better, but from a technical standpoint he is not. This means he is doing less with more from an evaluation view.

Also, it is critique, not hate. There is nothing personal about any of the critical comments made towards Jonathan Cooper's play. All critique is in relation to his on the field play, and the reasons behind that level of play.

 

[kerouac9]

Honestly I'm not getting the Cooper hate. He is essentially a rookie who's started all of what, 3 games? And people are expecting him to be the 2nd coming of Larry Little or Jerry Kramer or Gene Upshaw right out of the gate. He's still learning. No matter what, he's still leaps and bounds better than Fanaika.

Turning around and looking at what's happened behind you is not the posture of someone who DIDN'T screw up. It's also not the posture of 99.9% of professional offensive linemen--particularly in the middle of a play.

Whether or not Cooper was supposed to block Quinn after the snap is really immaterial. The problem is that Cooper didn't block anyone for an entire running play. What are the instincts of an offensive lineman when, not facing someone immediately in front of him, the choice is to become a spectator instead of looking for a body of a defensive back or linebacker to plow into?

 

[cardpa]

Turning around and looking at what's happened behind you is not the posture of someone who DIDN'T screw up. It's also not the posture of 99.9% of professional offensive linemen--particularly in the middle of a play.

Whether or not Cooper was supposed to block Quinn after the snap is really immaterial. The problem is that Cooper didn't block anyone for an entire running play. What are the instincts of an offensive lineman when, not facing someone immediately in front of him, the choice is to become a spectator instead of looking for a body of a defensive back or linebacker to plow into?

Come on K9 he did run pretty fast down the field trailing the play. I was impressed with his speed.

 

[don7031]

What are the instincts of an offensive lineman when, not facing someone immediately in front of him, the choice is to become a spectator instead of looking for a body of a defensive back or linebacker to plow into?

Drafting / recruiting based on physical attributes is epidemic. The measurables are quantitative and the intangibles aren't. But it is the intangibles that differentiate the players.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Turning around and looking at what's happened behind you is not the posture of someone who DIDN'T screw up. It's also not the posture of 99.9% of professional offensive linemen--particularly in the middle of a play.

Whether or not Cooper was supposed to block Quinn after the snap is really immaterial. The problem is that Cooper didn't block anyone for an entire running play. What are the instincts of an offensive lineman when, not facing someone immediately in front of him, the choice is to become a spectator instead of looking for a body of a defensive back or linebacker to plow into?

I'm sure you've watched enough football to see OL miss blocks and not block anyone the entire play.

Re-watching the play, after Quinn got by, who was Cooper supposed to block when he passed the LOS? There was really nobody else around.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm sure you've watched enough football to see OL miss blocks and not block anyone the entire play.

Re-watching the play, after Quinn got by, who was Cooper supposed to block when he passed the LOS? There was really nobody else around.

It's hard to say, because he stops his momentum so quickly to look into the backfield and (one assumes) find out how much he screwed up.

Really, he should've kept moving forward and double-teamed #52 or kept moving forward and blocked the safety along with Darren Fells. Otherwise, he should've sealed off Robert Quinn coming back out of the backfield.

I don't think it's fair to say that it's okay to make fun of Rob Housler not blocking anyone (which I've done in Coaches Tape reviews that we all had fun with) and then jump all over me when Cooper looks this bad.

There are plays every game where an OL doesn't block someone--particularly in pass pro when the opposition only rushes four--but the technique and fundamentals on display here--in a method that's easily deliverable to the fans--is a synecdoche for how Cooper performed for much of this game.

 

[D-Dogg]

Coop may be a rookie by playing time but he was also a top pick and I do expect more of him as a rookie. Throw in the year he could have been improving technique mentally at least and he's really behind. His upside is huge but he is lost in space a lot and I understand the digs at him. They are warranted. I have confidence in his improvement though and feel he played better vs the rams...a better d.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

There is nothing personal about any of the critical comments made towards Jonathan Cooper's play. All critique is in relation to his on the field play, and the reasons behind that level of play.

Coop may be a rookie by playing time but he was also a top pick and I do expect more of him as a rookie. Throw in the year he could have been improving technique mentally at least and he's really behind. His upside is huge but he is lost in space a lot and I understand the digs at him. They are warranted. I have confidence in his improvement though and feel he played better vs the rams...a better d.

Agree with both of these

 

[Darkside]

The thread doesn't bother me, nor does the criticism of Coop. First round pick, as I said before, I would hope someone would look at it critically and evaluate it over a season. K9s pretty much done that. Chopper, I believe, did a great job of it also in response to another thread.
People can get upset or disagree and that's cool but what I think honestly is that this is the kind of stuff we want on this forum. Without it it's just a bunch of bs and conjecture. It's certainly the kind of analysis I want to see.

The stuff about hating Coop or hating Keim is irrelevant. What matters is the tape and analysis of it and is it correct.

I don't doubt what the tape says nor do I doubt K9s or Choppers, in the other thread, analysis of it. All I want to know is whether or not this is abnormal for a first round pick. I seriously doubt it. I say that because this is a dude coming off an injury without having continuous playing time since he was drafted. If he was playing continuously then I would say okay, this is bad. But he hasn't been. He's had trepidation about his leg and probably more concerned with his athleticism as a result.

The technique issues worry me. But that can be fixed. What really worries me is his lack of awareness in space. We saw that earlier in the year man and I said it then, he was wandering in space, unaware, with a total lack of situational awareness. For a guy with his athleticism that is troubling because you're counting on that dude to pull across the line because he can actually do it. If you can't block anyone though it's pointless.

I enjoyed Choppers (?) analysis, in the other thread, the best, with combo blocks, because I do think Coop is really good at it. I watched several plays where he did just that, disengaged, went downhill, found another blocker, and blocked him.

The real question is whether Coop is behind schedule and I don't think he is. He came off a horrific leg injury and hasn't played continuous football. If it was a vet after a leg injury maybe it's different, but this is a rook, playing against pros, who are always swiping at your legs, trying to regain his college form.

 

[D-Dogg]

Yeah darkside...that lost in space look is troublesome for me. It's like he's a step slow and looking around, unsure of what to do. It looks very bad...and happens WAY too much.

Hopefully that improves.

Early in the year Buc was missing hits, missing tackles and then all of the sudden he was right on time, making plays. Took him time to adjust. Hopefully that is what this lost in space Cooper play is about.

 

[Darkside]

Yeah darkside...that lost in space look is troublesome for me. It's like he's a step slow and looking around, unsure of what to do. It looks very bad...and happens WAY too much.

Hopefully that improves.

Early in the year Buc was missing hits, missing tackles and then all of the sudden he was right on time, making plays. Took him time to adjust. Hopefully that is what this lost in space Cooper play is about.

Agree, but it's not even that he's a step slow though. Watch him in college pulling and he just fires off the ball, streaks across the line, and levels dudes. In the pros he's clueless, watch him do it, he actually slows down looking for someone to hit because he has no idea where they're coming from. He's totally clueless in space at the pro level.

That's hard to coach, unless it's merely a lack of playbook. But honestly, in my opinion, I think it's a lack of knowledge about defenses. That's what worries me. Because that's hard to teach. He doesn't have a clue where dudes are coming from. No clue. Totally lost in space.

 

[Chopper0080]

Agree, but it's not even that he's a step slow though. Watch him in college pulling and he just fires off the ball, streaks across the line, and levels dudes. In the pros he's clueless, watch him do it, he actually slows down looking for someone to hit because he has no idea where they're coming from. He's totally clueless in space at the pro level.

That's hard to coach, unless it's merely a lack of playbook. But honestly, in my opinion, I think it's a lack of knowledge about defenses. That's what worries me. Because that's hard to teach. He doesn't have a clue where dudes are coming from. No clue. Totally lost in space.

Here is where we differ in opinions. I believe the uncertainty and looking lost in space is due to a lack of game reps. That is the game moving too fast for Cooper right now which I believe game reps really helps. Where I believe he is behind by his own neglect is in regards to his technique. His ability to play with solid fundamentals is all up to Cooper. That is where he has failed in his developemnt so far. The in-game plays where he gets beat or isn't seeing what he needs to see, that is what I believe is due to a lack of experience.

If I am worried about his development, I am significantly more worried about his inability to consistently play with balance than I am with looking lost on an occassional play.

 

[don7031]

I'm more worried about a scouting department that puts a top ten grade on an offensive lineman who's play would draw laughter in a high school film room.