Why not Amare?

[ASUCHRIS]

Outside of the box a bit, but why not? It's not like we're going to use the cap space, he's an expiring contract, and he'll immediately be the best big man we have.

Any other realistic PF/C options out there?

 

[elindholm]

I'd be okay with it, but the Knicks would have to include some major sweeteners in the deal, and they don't have much to offer. Even though the Suns could "afford" to pay Stoudemire 20-whatever million for one season, he's worth only about a third of that, so it would be a pretty inefficient use of resources.

 

[Chaz]

Outside of the box a bit, but why not? It's not like we're going to use the cap space, he's an expiring contract, and he'll immediately be the best big man we have.

Any other realistic PF/C options out there?

"Best" big man meaning what exactly? Certainly not the best defensively and I would question his ability to create offense one on one at this point.

He is an expiring contract but NY would have to pay the Suns to take him at this point.

 

[elindholm]

Certainly not the best defensively and I would question his ability to create offense one on one at this point.

To be blunt, creating offense one-on-one was never his strong suit. He was always better at getting the ball on the move or working free for 15-footers. Even during his heyday with the Suns, giving him the ball in the post and asking him to "make something happen" tended to yield disappointing results.

With at least two penetrating point guards on the roster in Dragic and Thomas, and possibly a third in Bledsoe, I wouldn't worry about generating scoring chances for Stoudemire. I actually think he'd do well back in Phoenix for the 500 minutes until his body broke down again.

 

[SO91]

If they'd consider acquiring an expiring contract like Amare's for one season, why not Bargnani's instead? Big, not very good at defense, but can shoot from the outside.

 

[JS22]

Not my money, but I'd consider it at this point. Amare is not the the player he once was, but if healthy he's the probably the best PF on this roster.

I highly doubt it happens simply because the Suns ditched him so they wouldn't have to pay an injured Amare a bunch of guaranteed money. And the situation played out exactly as the Suns though it would. Amare has missed a ton of games and is not worth anything close to what he's being paid. For "pride" reasons it wouldn't make sense for the the Suns to take on his contract now. (Even if it's just for one year.)

 

[Chaz]

To be blunt, creating offense one-on-one was never his strong suit. He was always better at getting the ball on the move or working free for 15-footers. Even during his heyday with the Suns, giving him the ball in the post and asking him to "make something happen" tended to yield disappointing results.

With at least two penetrating point guards on the roster in Dragic and Thomas, and possibly a third in Bledsoe, I wouldn't worry about generating scoring chances for Stoudemire. I actually think he'd do well back in Phoenix for the 500 minutes until his body broke down again.

He was always good in a pick and roll and had some success facing up but I suspect that any speed advantage he had has left him.
So now he can hit a spot up 15 footer.

I still fail to see how he is better than anyone they already have. He has experience but court savvy was never his strong suit.

Again the Knicks would have to pay the Suns handsomely to take on that contract. NY has been looking for anyone to take him off their hands.

The thread title says why not but I have to wonder why. I fail to see the benefit except whatever they can pry out of NY.

 

[elindholm]

He was always good in a pick and roll and had some success facing up but I suspect that any speed advantage he had has left him.
So now he can hit a spot up 15 footer.

I watched some Knicks games at the end of last season in which he looked pretty good. He can still do things most other players can't.

Again the Knicks would have to pay the Suns handsomely to take on that contract.

That's for sure.

I fail to see the benefit except whatever they can pry out of NY.

The benefit would be minimal, but not zero. He's still an exciting player when he gets it going, and I think a lot of fans miss him. I think there would be some long-term advantage in instilling a culture of bigs getting to the free-throw line, even if Stoudemire himself would be here only one year. Warren might potentially learn a thing or two from him.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He was always good in a pick and roll and had some success facing up but I suspect that any speed advantage he had has left him.
So now he can hit a spot up 15 footer.

I still fail to see how he is better than anyone they already have. He has experience but court savvy was never his strong suit.

Again the Knicks would have to pay the Suns handsomely to take on that contract. NY has been looking for anyone to take him off their hands.

The thread title says why not but I have to wonder why. I fail to see the benefit except whatever they can pry out of NY.

The benefit is that he's a much better offensive player than any other big man we have. If the option is to sit on the money for this year, or bring in Amare for 20 min a game as an offensive spark, I'd rather have the Amare option, esp if we can get a sweetener or two out of it.

Did you watch Amare at all last year? Sure he's not his former self, but he can still score.

Which other 4/5 is going to score for us?

 

[slinslin]

Markieff right now is better than Amare though even if Amare stays reasonably healthy.

 

[mojorizen7]

I haven't seen Amare's game in awhile. Can he still get to the FT line? If so that would be something of value on this team.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Markieff right now is better than Amare though even if Amare stays reasonably healthy.

Debatable at best. Based on your precious advanced stats (PER), they rank about the same. (Which completely ignores the fact that you've created a false choice - we could have both)

I guess it comes down to, who would you rather having backing up the 4/5 spot - Tolliver or Amare?

 

[Chaz]

I admit haven't seen much of him lately and I am not totally opposed. I understand that he is not completely useless. Given that his contract is expiring it couldn't be any worse than Okafor last year and Amare might actually be available to play at some point. Maybe the Suns training staff can help him out.

It depends on the compensation from NY. Anyone know the rules on the Knicks sending cash to offset the salary but it not counting against their cap number?

 

[elindholm]

Anyone know the rules on the Knicks sending cash to offset the salary but it not counting against their cap number?

I don't know that rule, but the maximum cash they could include is $3.3 million (per cbafaq.com, #97), and that's nowhere near enough to move the needle. It would have to be additional talent or picks, but I think they gave up all of their tradable picks to get Anthony.

 

[slinslin]

Each team can only use 3M$ in cash per year. The Knicks probably already used that up.

Kevin Garnett is a much better target for a salary dump. No way the Nets owner no matter how many billions he has won't pay 100M$+ tax each season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Debatable at best. Based on your precious advanced stats (PER), they rank about the same. (Which completely ignores the fact that you've created a false choice - we could have both)

I guess it comes down to, who would you rather having backing up the 4/5 spot - Tolliver or Amare?

I suggested we make ourselves available for an Amare trade a few weeks ago but I'd say Markieff is the better all around player right now even without considering availability. Amare is still probably the more effective scorer between the two but Keef's defense is better. As for Tolliver or Amare, I'd rather have Tolliver and use the money to fix our hole in the middle unless we can get a draft pick out of the deal. I was thinking a three way deal where Shumpert is the sweetener to the third team that sends us a pick in return.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

As for Tolliver or Amare, I'd rather have Tolliver and use the money to fix our hole in the middle

Yeah, I just don't see any better options than Amare out there, outside of panicking and overpaying a Monroe.

Can you think of any other decent PF/C available?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, I just don't see any better options than Amare out there, outside of panicking and overpaying a Monroe.

Can you think of any other decent PF/C available?

No, we'd have to trade. Ennis, Goodwin and a pick for Mason Plumlee. Sign and trade Bledsoe to Milwaukee for Potboy and a couple of picks. Something along those lines. Or just live with the weakness with an eye on solving it next year. I love a lot about our roster and I'm impressed by how quickly we've reached this point in the rebuild process but we're still in the pretender category so I'm fine if they decide we just need to take our lumps this year with Plumlee and Len. But there will be lumps and it would be kind of nice if they came out and acknowledged their reasoning.

Steve

 

[Chaz]

Yeah, I just don't see any better options than Amare out there, outside of panicking and overpaying a Monroe.

Can you think of any other decent PF/C available?

I don't. Which is why prior to Tolliver I suspected they would sign a player from overseas or try to find a player that impressed in the summer league that doesn't have a contract or can be acquired via trade like Plumlee was last summer.

I still think they will bring in a couple of extra guys for training camp but I doubt it will be someone I have heard of before.

 

[HooverDam]

I'd take Amare back in a second, I love the guy and it'd certainly be partly sentimental.

He's certainly not worth his contract, but it is expiring. Maybe the medical staff here could help extend his career a bit. Maybe he'd sign a real cheap deal to retire on here, which would be nice.

If he can be a 10/5 guy in 20 minutes a game until he retires with an occasional flash of his old self, I'd take that.

I don't know if the Knicks would really even throw in sweeteners beyond say a 2nd round pick. If you were taking Amare last year, maybe thats a different story. As is, its only 1 year left on his deal, and if they move him, its not like there are any FA's left for them to nab. It'd strictly be to help them not pay the tax.

If they'd consider acquiring an expiring contract like Amare's for one season, why not Bargnani's instead? Big, not very good at defense, but can shoot from the outside.

Nope.

That's his calling card, yet he stinks at it. Lets look at his 3 point shooting percentages the last few years (going from most recent and then backwards):

27%
30%
29%
34%

He hasn't shot over 35% since 09-10. 35% is the demarcation line of "if you can't hit this percentage, you should probably stop shooting many 3's."

Barg's is awful at everything.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He hasn't shot over 35% since 09-10. 35% is the demarcation line of "if you can't hit this percentage, you should probably stop shooting many 3's."

Barg's is awful at everything.

I don't want him but I wonder about this comment. Shooting 34% from three would be the equivalent of a 50% (plus) shooter from two which is usually the standard we used to look for in an outside shooter. I guess there are other factors to consider about the 3 point shot and I'm sure someone has done the work on them but I wouldn't know where to look.

I know I've always assumed that three point misses were more likely to go long and long rebounds supposedly benefit the offense so I wonder if a 3 point shot might be valuable even at a slightly lower percentage. Of course, you'd also have to consider the risks of breakaway layups that long rebounds can lead to. Anyway, does anyone know of a good workup on the three point shot, advantages and disadvantages?

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I don't want him but I wonder about this comment. Shooting 34% from three would be the equivalent of a 50% (plus) shooter from two which is usually the standard we used to look for in an outside shooter. I guess there are other factors to consider about the 3 point shot and I'm sure someone has done the work on them but I wouldn't know where to look.

It's probably very difficult to model. But the other thing to consider is that two-point attempts are more likely to draw fouls, so they generate offense above the make-percentage rate. There's no question that long two-pointers are the least desirable shots, but a 50% attempt in the paint (which would be a low success rate) is almost certain to be worth more than a 34% or 35% attempt from three-point range.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's probably very difficult to model. But the other thing to consider is that two-point attempts are more likely to draw fouls, so they generate offense above the make-percentage rate. There's no question that long two-pointers are the least desirable shots, but a 50% attempt in the paint (which would be a low success rate) is almost certain to be worth more than a 34% or 35% attempt from three-point range.

You're right, it would be tough to model. I forgot about free throws but I think that might be more than offset by the risk of getting your shot blocked or getting the ball stripped before the attempt. The block shows up in percentage but losing the ball wouldn't.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

I'd like to see such a workup, too. There are a few other aspects of 3 pt shooting I'd like to see treated as well. For example, by using the player tracking system they should be able to give shooter's percentages when the shots are contested vs wide open or, maybe even, contested, closely contested and uncontested. There may be some value of a breakdown by where in the shot clock they occur - giving D'Antoni some credit he seemed to be the first one that espoused the idea of shooting threes in transition because you were more likely to be unguarded then. As aspect that interests me is how well guys shoot them in the playoffs vs the regular season. You expect somewhat better D in the post season but its still important because its a losing idea to set up your offense for the case of the reg. season if you can't carry it over to the playoffs. (I noticed this year that Bonner got much less PT in the playoffs than he did in the regular season - and Bonner's defensive stats are not bad. I guess we all know Pops is a master at adjusting.)

The player tracking data could give us much more complete data on individuals' defense all over the floor instead of just at the rim but I guess that's another story.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd like to see such a workup, too. There are a few other aspects of 3 pt shooting I'd like to see treated as well. For example, by using the player tracking system they should be able to give shooter's percentages when the shots are contested vs wide open or, maybe even, contested, closely contested and uncontested. There may be some value of a breakdown by where in the shot clock they occur - giving D'Antoni some credit he seemed to be the first one that espoused the idea of shooting threes in transition because you were more likely to be unguarded then. As aspect that interests me is how well guys shoot them in the playoffs vs the regular season. You expect somewhat better D in the post season but its still important because its a losing idea to set up your offense for the case of the reg. season if you can't carry it over to the playoffs. (I noticed this year that Bonner got much less PT in the playoffs than he did in the regular season - and Bonner's defensive stats are not bad. I guess we all know Pops is a master at adjusting.)

The player tracking data could give us much more complete data on individuals' defense all over the floor instead of just at the rim but I guess that's another story.

Good points, good ideas. I have to believe that someone has already done much of it though.

Steve