Why do you care?

[Sine]

Why do Cards fans care about the aSU issue? If Bidwill wins it just gives a very wealthy man more change for his pocket. You know it is not going to be the difference on the field.

If ASU loses it could be devastsing to the athletic dept. It has taken a decade to get the program out of the red. This would immediately erase all that hard work. Programs may could be be cut. At the very least the programs will have less money to work with. So this will have an effect on the field, not just in some financial report.

I am not privy to all the details here in this case so I am not going to comment on the merits of either sides argument. Even if the Cards have legal justification, I find it apalling as a resident that they would sue a puiblic institution after the voters handed them a stadium to keep them finacially viable. Particularly suing for "damages", not just their share of what ASU profitted from.

Why you are coming to an ASU site with such venom is beyond me? You know the Bidwills are not good owners and look out for numbver 1 first and foremost. Nothing new is being said about them. I'm sure ASU is not a saint in this, but they have been a member of this community for much longer than the Cards. Deservedly they will get the benefit of the doubt over the Cards every time.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Co sine here.....boy are you off on a tangent.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by Sine
I find it apalling as a resident that they would sue a puiblic institution

I find appalling that ASU, after losing its case to an independent arbitrator over year ago, would try its case in the court of public opinion without so much as a mention as to why the arbitrator ruled against them. I find it further appalling that yet another state institution has entered into a legally binding agreement that they are now trying to weasel out of because they choose to. I find it appalling that Gene Smith says this may cause ASU to drop "minor" sports when, in fact, the department has not been able to balance its books for at least the past ten years.



ps - you only need to start one thread when you are out to prove you are an idiot.

 

[SECTION 11]

Maybe a more productive question to ask is why was ASU in the red in the first place? And why is Bidwill being blamed for it?

The smear against Bidwill in this matter has been rediculous. Most of the comments attack the Cardinals record on the field, ignoring anything else that he does.


Nobody knows at this point what the outcome is, how much damages are, whether or not Bidwill will even accept them, and if so how much and over what time frame.

Painting this guy as some sort of criminal in this matter is a joke. Quietly this guy gives hundreds of thousands of dollars every year back to the community, but isn't given any credit for it because his football team blows.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Sine
It has taken a decade to get the program out of the red.

Doesn't that make you wonder about the powers that be at ASU?


I give money every year to the ASU Alumni program.

Generally ASU's alumni programs are weak at best.
45K students, about 10K graduates every year, and nobody gives crap back to the school. Why? I dunno.

Ever ask yourself where all the tuition goes? The sports facilities are junk, minus the new baseball facility.
More than half the campus hasn't been touched since it was built in the fifties. The social science building... can anyone even enter that anymore?

ASU has only recently started to take it's own campus seriously after decades of neglect, mismanagement and piss poor use of it's funds.

Yet somehow Bidwill is responsible. Why? If you read the ASU message board it's because his football team sucks. That's a terrific argument

 

[Capital Card]

Originally posted by Sine

If ASU loses it could be devastsing to the athletic dept. It has taken a decade to get the program out of the red. This would immediately erase all that hard work.

And this affects the Cardinals exactly how?

You must really be proud of ASU and the hard work and dedication they put forth to eliminate their fiscal shortcomings. It appears to me, and an independent arbiter, that they were only able to do it by stealing from the Cardinals.

That they would then try and paint themselves as the "victims" here is morally repulsive. Gene Smith should be fired over this.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

ASU should be thankful that is all the Cards are asking for.

Since 1988, ASU has made money left and right by hosting the Cards at SDS. (And I was an ASU fan long before the Cards hit town, and am an ASU grad as well (more than simply "in the community" as you say)).

Every game, the Cards get their portion of the gate and a small portion of the skybox revenue. ASU gets the parking, concessions, most of the advertising revenue, etc.

If ASU claims they lose money by hosting the Cards, they are either lying or don't know how to properly run a stadium.

Look at the improvements which have been made, which could not have been done as quickly without the Cards. Sealing off the horseshoe, the skyboxes, scoreboards, ticket office, locker rooms, etc. Plus the extra revenue generated with these improvements at huge events, like the Fiesta Bowl and Super Bowl, etc.

All Cards fans aren't coming down on ASU and vice versa. I will say this however...Read up on the issue before defending ASU.

 

[SECTION 11]

Re: Re: Why do you care?

Originally posted by Capital Card
Gene Smith should be fired over this.

Gene Smith is behind the 8-ball only because he walked into this mess.
He needs to think about what he says, because he's speaking for Charles Harris and Kevin White to a certain extent in this matter.

 

[WizardOfAz]

When the AD at ASU claims that they have grossed "X", but really only netted "Y" and then couple that with the enormous appetite for running the department at deficits....you have to wonder

 

[SECTION 11]

Lattie Coor's push was for better physical infrastructure.

When he retired, do you think he had spent wisely on improving it? Or do you think he overspent on a handful of facilities, and let the rest go to crap?

 

[Sine]

Most of you are still not answersing the question. You are doing exactly what you are cursing the ASU fans for doing. You are attacking ASU on non-related issues.

Enough of the "Cards give money to charities so they are o.k." I never said Bidwill was criminal or a bad guy. All professional franchises give money to charities. That doesn't make them any different than over 120 other porfessional teams. It has nothing to do with this. I just think his family is using poor judjgement. From what is reported Mr.B appears to be a good guy who is cluless. His sons seem to be a different story. Quite often their actions look greedy. This looks greedy to me.

If cardinals wanted their story out there then they need to speak up. The only time they do interviews is when they want a stadium.

 

[SECTION 11]

I'm waiting for a response of "Yeah, but Bidwill's still an *******."

That's pretty much what I got at the ASU board.

Or the classic, "Giving out tickets to charities does not count as charitable contributions."


I want to hear a quality argument here, not some half-ass sophmore attempt to make Bidwill somehow responsible for ASU's continued mess.

 

[Capital Card]

Re: Re: Re: Why do you care?

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Gene Smith is behind the 8-ball only because he walked into this mess.
He needs to think about what he says, because he's speaking for Charles Harris and Kevin White to a certain extent in this matter.

I'm not refering to Gene Smith as responsible for the signage deal. I understand that it was put in place long before he arrived. However, Gene Smith is the one who is responsible for taking this to the court of public opinion after losing in the judicial courts. I am sorry, but this is reprehensible behavior for an athletic director.

I ask again, is this the message ASU wants to teach it's students? If you lose in court, play the victom and cry to the papers.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Sine
Most of you are still not answersing the question.

Your question was "Why do you care?"

I'm assuming it was carefully worded and that's it's leading up to another question, because you've asked it twice and on it's own it isn't very productive.


I care because I went to ASU, I continue to support ASU financially, I support the Cardinals, as an architect the use of public or private funds for any sort infrastructure improvement is of interest and looking at ASU as a small scale urban planning lab is of interest.

 

[Sine]

No need to insult. I did not come here to debate Lattie's vision for ASU or lack there of.

But since you are insisting. He spent money on money producing programs. I think its funny you ignore the massive fairly new Life Sciences Building right next door to pick on the Social Sciences Building. Or the Cancer Research right there, The newer School of Design building, The renovated business school, new law library, and others that I know I am forgetting. You know how recent most of those buildings are if you were in the School of Architecture, you had to tour the campus weekly.

Again none of this has anything to do with Gene Smith or the Cards.

 

[Capital Card]

Originally posted by Sine
Most of you are still not answersing the question. You are doing exactly what you are cursing the ASU fans for doing. You are attacking ASU on non-related issues.

Enough of the "Cards give money to charities so they are o.k." I never said Bidwill was criminal or a bad guy. All professional franchises give money to charities. That doesn't make them any different than over 120 other porfessional teams. It has nothing to do with this. I just think his family is using poor judjgement. From what is reported Mr.B appears to be a good guy who is cluless. His sons seem to be a different story. Quite often their actions look greedy. This looks greedy to me.

If cardinals wanted their story out there then they need to speak up. The only time they do interviews is when they want a stadium.

Bidwill's philanthropy projects, charaties, and greed have nothing to do with this debate. To include them is just to cloud the issue.

The Cardinals are a business that makes it's money from certain activities. One of those activities is advertising. ASU entered a contract with the Cardinals to share revenues from advertising signage at SDS. ASU collected Millions of dollars in ad revenue from signs displayed at both ASU and NFL games. The Cards are asking for their share of revenue from this revenue stream.

Why is this poor judgement on the Cardinals part??? As a shareholder in many public corporations, I would demand that my elected board of officials go after any other organization that is depriving me of assets I am contractually entitled to.

Again, I restate that I feel ASU is the one showing extremely poor judgement in this matter, and I fail to understand why so many people are siding with the University.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Sine
No need to insult. I did not come here to debate Lattie's vision for ASU or lack there of.

But since you are insisting. He spent money on money producing programs. I think its funny you ignore the massive fairly new Life Sciences Building right next door to pick on the Social Sciences Building. Or the Cancer Research right there, The newer School of Design building, The renovated business school, new law library, and others that I know I am forgetting. You know how recent most of those buildings are if you were in the School of Architecture, you had to tour the campus weekly.

Again none of this has anything to do with Gene Smith or the Cards.

Not insulting, just trying to establish what your position is and what exactly is does have to do with Smith and the Cardinals.

I'm familiar with all the buildings you mentioned, that's why I said only recently ASU has began to take themselves seriously as an institution. Getting by on the sheer number of students obviously was not working.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Capital Card
I fail to understand why so many people are siding with the University.

Most of the reasoning I've seen so far is along the lines of "They Suck."

 

[nidan]

I think the answer as to why some people here are PO'ed with some ASU boosters is simple.

There a number of ASU grads who are spewing venom at the Cardinals over this. They are completely ignoring that ASU is at fault here.

In the face of the ASU propaganda attack there is little the Cardinals can do. Folks on you msg board assume the Cardinals are "bad" and ASU is "good" regardless of what is said.

If the Cardinals say anything the ASU boosters types will just accuse them of lying. I seen that comment or similar ones posted repeatly over the last few days.

Also you have trotted out (slightly more politly than others) the same old worn out BS "You know it is not going to be the difference on the field"

No I don't know that and if you look at the article on the front page, who do you think was taking Jeff Blakes picture ? I can assure you Jeff Blake does not think that. He was not a rah, rah type, but thoughtful and determined.

I'm listening to Dexter Jackson (you know Superbowl MVP) and he has motor. He is trash talking during a mini camp practice with Emmit no less.

Regardless, what has the Cardinals on field performance have to do with ASU breaking it's contractual agreements ? The answer is nothing but folks like you want to trot those comments out as you see it as an easy way of denigrating the Cardinals. One could easily ask "How is ASU on field performance", not o t good is what I hear and the attendance at games is pretty poor as well.

So what does ASU on field performance have to do with this? Answer nothing, just as the Cardinals performance has nothing to do with it.

Comments?

 

[Capital Card]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Most of the reasoning I've seen so far is along the lines of "They Suck."

It's like asking for a Yes or No answer, only to have the person your asking keep screaming "BLUE" at the top of thier lungs.

 

[SECTION 11]

Most of the fire surrounds the consequences of the arbitrators decision.

Smith has come out and estimated jobs and programs that will be lost "because of the Cardinals." There is so much fallacy in this thinking that it's not worth debating until there's something more objective to look at.


As far as the contract itself goes, ASU supporters claim that the University was "forced into it by the State Legislature." This I would like to see some proof of. Or at least some support of. Simply throwing it out there because it sounds good reeks of a lack of accountability on ASU's part.

 

[Capital Card]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
As far as the contract itself goes, ASU supporters claim that the University was "forced into it by the State Legislature." This I would like to see some proof of. Or at least some support of. Simply throwing it out there because it sounds good reeks of a lack of accountability on ASU's part.

I wouldn't dispute this point. I assume, although I don't know for sure, that a State Board of Regents, or some such organization makes most of these decisions on behalf of ASU. This is how most public universitys operate.

It's also a baseless arguement. Arizona Rengents have the authority to enter ASU into a contractual agreement. ASU is required to follow these contracts no matter how they personally feel about them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

as an attorney my interest is based on the legal aspects. yes, i think it's a difficult situation for the cardinals. they have poor pr in general from their lack of success on the field and the entire negativity that has surrounded their quest for a stadium. suing asu was a (poorly) calculated risk on their part. it was bound to result in nothing but bad pr. however, it seems that they are justified on the merits of the case, and, as a business, are certainly deserving of an accurate award. if this was some other business, like a construction company, who had contracted with asu, and asu had been found in default on the contract would there be so much public outrage? no. even if the construction coimpay was large, wealthy, and the cash was going nowhere but the pocket of the CEO, we STILL wouldn't have the outrage we're seeing here. until some facts are provided that shows that the cardinals did something wrong or the arbiter was incorrect in his ruling i will staunchily support the cardinals right to recover what is rightfully theirs.

also, airing the dirty laundry in public is simply low-class shenanigans. reminds me of smarmy trial attorneys pandering to the cameras. did i say low-class? make that lack of class completely.

oh yeah, and i'm a huge ASU fan (with family friends on the team for at least another 4 years).

 

[Sine]

I never used the "they suck argument". I only care about my teams finances if they affect the on field performance. I could be wrong about this affecting the cards on the field, but I doubt it. By the time they get any money they will be in the new stadium and revenue streams are not suppose to be an issue. So it likley is just icing on the cake.


ASU fans feel this lawsuit could affect there teams performance. That is why they are upset and emotional. They are tired of being smacked for underacheiving and finally felt the program was moving forward. So they are panicing at the thought that we may be abck in the financial doghouse.

It's one thing to attack beligerent ASU fans, its another to come at ASU with such venom. If you want to bash Smith for going public so be it. He did what he felt he had to do. The same way the Cards did what they felt they had to do. Both have to deal with the criticism and backlash. But some are implying that
ASU is immoral or was out to cheat them. That is not fair.

Just as The Cards feel they had a legal right to money earned, ASU may have felt they had a legal right to not go on without the Cards. Whether its a legitimate misunderstanding of the intent of the deal or one them is trying to take advantage of a bad contract I don't care. I do not have enough info to make a educated decision.

That said, I feel that the cards made a horrible decision. They opened themselves up to ridicule. They are suing a public entity after the same public gave them a big fat new home. This is not even close to a disagreement over a construction contract. Like I said earlier it is not just that they are suing to get part of the money ASU received for the deal. They want damges for revenue lost. That is laughable. ASU's attendance is twice as much and the stadium recives far more television exposure from ASU. That is my problem, they sound ungrateful. Fiesta Bowl has even had prblems with these guys. Perhaps the Cards are right but ask for part of the revenue ASU recieved, no more ..no less.

BTW ASU's season tickets dropped by 10,000-15,000 the year the Cards showed up. I doubt ASU was thrilled to have the cards.

 

[WizardOfAz]

I have not yet gotten an answer from a "pro-ASU" fan - If the Cardinals are so wrong, how in the world did the arbitrator ever agree with them?