Whiz's Say: Burns/Gambo/Jaws

[RugbyMuffin]

Burns, and Gambo were talking to Ron Jaworski about the Cardinal front office.

[Note: not interested on a fruitless debate about "trust worthy new sources"]

The assumption or belief is that Whiz has A LOT of pull when it comes to picking players and talent. The main power for deciding on what players to bring into AZ is Whiz and Graves together.

That is all well and good, and gives a good base hypothesis on the heirarchy of whom does what in the office.


They went on to talk about how Head Coaches that try to be 1/2 GM and 1/2 Head Coach usually fail.

Take Bill Parcells. He won all his Super Bowl's when he was just a coach. His old sound byte, "Don't expect me to do the cooking, if I can't shop for the ingredients" sounds great, but he was more successful concentrating on the cook book, and letting someone else get the tomatoes.

I dunno. Thought it interesting.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Coaches who do not play GM, know they have to adjust to the personnel given them. Coaches who play GM, think they don't have to do it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Coaches who do not play GM, know they have to adjust to the personnel given them. Coaches who play GM, think they don't have to do it.

Seriously, print that quote out, roll it up in a ball, and spike it on the ground as you confidently walk away from your computer, cause that is a hell of a quote.

Makes a lot of sense.

Never heard that before, never thought of that before.

and at times, it seems like Whiz is forcing players into where he thinks they should fit.

Thanks for posting that.

 

[Totally_Red]

The Cardinals have had so many screwups with second round picks that you really have to question the evaluation process. Cody Brown comes to mind. The second round is where you need to get solid contributors. We've got Calais Campbell and Daryl Washington recently, but the long-term history hasn't been good.

2011 Ryan Williams RB VA Tech (injury plagued)
2010 Daryl Washington LB TCU (good Pick)
2009 Cody Brown DE CT (bust)
2008 Calais Campbell Miami (good Pick)
2007 Alan Branch DT Michigan (non-contributor first three years)
2006 Deuce Lutui G USC (ate his way out of Arizona)

 

[CFLredzoned]

At first, I really liked the idea of Whiz working under Keim and concentrating strictly on coaching. In a perfect world, that would be ideal. But the more I think about it, any time somebody has supreme power and that power is taken away... never ends well.

Best case scenario, Keim asserts his authority without wavering, Whiz humbly accepts his role, coaches his ass off and the team goes to the playoffs. Worst case, the team starts losing right of the bat, fingers start pointing, and it's another wasted season. I'm sure MikeB has already played both scenarios out in his head. He might be higher on Horton for HC than meets the eye.

 

[Duckjake]

The Cardinals have had so many screwups with second round picks that you really have to question the evaluation process. Cody Brown comes to mind. The second round is where you need to get solid contributors. We've got Calais Campbell and Daryl Washington recently, but the long-term history hasn't been good.

2011 Ryan Williams RB VA Tech (injury plagued)
2010 Daryl Washington LB TCU (good Pick)
2009 Cody Brown DE CT (bust)
2008 Calais Campbell Miami (good Pick)
2007 Alan Branch DT Michigan (non-contributor first three years)
2006 Deuce Lutui G USC (ate his way out of Arizona)

Branch did ok while he was here. Didn't live up to 2nd round status though. Lutui was a good 2nd round pick solid starter for 72 games and looking at the guys the current staff has brought in at Guard I don't know if Lutui ate his way out of Arizona as much as the coaches don't have a clue what makes a good Guard.

The second round has been about 50/50 for the Cards. Last 10 years: Some great players: Washington, Campbell, Dansby and Boldin.

A solid player in Lutui. As well as Cody Brown, Alan Branch, JJ Arrington and Ryan IR Williams.

 

[football karma]

Branch did ok while he was here. Didn't live up to 2nd round status though. Lutui was a good 2nd round pick solid starter for 72 games and looking at the guys the current staff has brought in at Guard I don't know if Lutui ate his way out of Arizona as much as the coaches don't have a clue what makes a good Guard.

The second round has been about 50/50 for the Cards. Last 10 years: Some great players: Washington, Campbell, Dansby and Boldin.

A solid player in Lutui. As well as Cody Brown, Alan Branch, JJ Arrington and Ryan IR Williams.

the Cards have been "average"

the hit rate for the second round is about 50%

go back and look at the second round from, lets say, the 2004 and 2005 NFL drafts --

 

[Chopper0080]

Burns, and Gambo were talking to Ron Jaworski about the Cardinal front office.

[Note: not interested on a fruitless debate about "trust worthy new sources"]

The assumption or belief is that Whiz has A LOT of pull when it comes to picking players and talent. The main power for deciding on what players to bring into AZ is Whiz and Graves together.

That is all well and good, and gives a good base hypothesis on the heirarchy of whom does what in the office.


They went on to talk about how Head Coaches that try to be 1/2 GM and 1/2 Head Coach usually fail.

Take Bill Parcells. He won all his Super Bowl's when he was just a coach. His old sound byte, "Don't expect me to do the cooking, if I can't shop for the ingredients" sounds great, but he was more successful concentrating on the cook book, and letting someone else get the tomatoes.

I dunno. Thought it interesting.

It makes a difference when the coach can evaluate players without the bias of having been the guy who selected them. Like it or not, if you pick a guy you are going to be more inclined to give that guy an extended look over a guy you didn't. A strong GM chooses players who fit a mold of what the coach wants and it allows the coach to evaluate that player objectively.

 

[football karma]

A strong GM chooses players who fit a mold of what the coach wants and it allows the coach to evaluate that player objectively.

its the old "two heads are better than one"

right now the Cardinals have one: Whis The other, Graves, simply says "good idea Ken, let me sign him for you"

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It makes a difference when the coach can evaluate players without the bias of having been the guy who selected them. Like it or not, if you pick a guy you are going to be more inclined to give that guy an extended look over a guy you didn't. A strong GM chooses players who fit a mold of what the coach wants and it allows the coach to evaluate that player objectively.

Another good point.

That would explain the long losing streaks. I mean, after 4 loses in a row, you may want to change some things.....maybe that is just me.

 

[Chopper0080]

Another good point.

That would explain the long losing streaks. I mean, after 4 loses in a row, you may want to change some things.....maybe that is just me.

One of the things I like about Whis is he doesn't seem to make knee jerk decisions. That being said, I think he is more inclined to push the front office to improve the QB situation if he wasn't the person who signed off on John Skelton and Kevin Kolb. It's just hard to look at your bosses and employees and tell them you screwed up. I can totally see why Whis chose to see the things he liked about those QBs and convince himself he could minimize their weaknesses.

 

[Jetstream Green]

hmmmm...Jaws was a big fan of Lindley in the draft (so much for a former QB knowing QB talent), and he never did care for the Cardinals after those NFC East years. It must suck to be Eagle fan. People like to think that the Cards did not belong in the NFC East because we were weaklings but when it came to the Eagles, we seemed to win more than lose head to head

 

[Stout]

One of the things I like about Whis is he doesn't seem to make knee jerk decisions. That being said, I think he is more inclined to push the front office to improve the QB situation if he wasn't the person who signed off on John Skelton and Kevin Kolb. It's just hard to look at your bosses and employees and tell them you screwed up. I can totally see why Whis chose to see the things he liked about those QBs and convince himself he could minimize their weaknesses.

On the contrary, he usually waits far, far too long to make changes and adjustments. I'd call him the human snail, but the title is already in use

 

[JeffGollin]

Branch did ok while he was here. Didn't live up to 2nd round status though. Lutui was a good 2nd round pick solid starter for 72 games and looking at the guys the current staff has brought in at Guard I don't know if Lutui ate his way out of Arizona as much as the coaches don't have a clue what makes a good Guard.

The second round has been about 50/50 for the Cards. Last 10 years: Some great players: Washington, Campbell, Dansby and Boldin.

A solid player in Lutui. As well as Cody Brown, Alan Branch, JJ Arrington and Ryan IR Williams.

How much of that was our inability to develop Branch and Lutui (& for that matter Watson) and how much was due to our picking the wrong guys in the first place?

I ask this sincerely; not to be argumentative.

 

[Duckjake]

How much of that was our inability to develop Branch and Lutui (& for that matter Watson) and how much was due to our picking the wrong guys in the first place?

I ask this sincerely; not to be argumentative.

In my opinion:

Branch had no place to play really. From what I've seen and read He wasn't a true 3-4 NT and had Dockett and Campbell in front of him at DE.

Lutui developed just fine. He was and is a good NFL Guard. Branch was probably the wrong guy for what the Cards wanted from him. Lutui was just a mistake by the current coaching staff in thinking Hadnot was better than a fat Lutui.

 

[PitchShifter]

Would Keim present a much more moderating power on Whiz than Graves if he were to assume the GM role?
The impression I get from reading the various articles recently is that Graves is far less involved in talent evaluation than Keim, so is far less equipped to provide a firm difference of opinion/counter-argument to what the Coach may want.
(This is just impression without obviously knowing the power balance behind the scenes)

 

[JeffGollin]

Would Keim present a much more moderating power on Whiz than Graves if he were to assume the GM role?
The impression I get from reading the various articles recently is that Graves is far less involved in talent evaluation than Keim, so is far less equipped to provide a firm difference of opinion/counter-argument to what the Coach may want.
(This is just impression without obviously knowing the power balance behind the scenes)

Knowing the behind the scenes situation is crucial.

At least on the surface, Keim's background seems to be almost entirely scouting.

Has the GM job under Graves been that narrow? Or is Rod more of a COO involved in marketing, ticket sales, PR, inter-league relations and overall operations including financial planning and P&L?

If the GM's responsibilities - as ownership views it - is that broad, does Keim have the temperment, business chops and interest necessary to handle those expanded responsibilities?

Or would the team be better off giving Steve The GM title but limiting his responsibilities to that of Super Scout and giving someone else the title and responsibilities of Director of FB* Operations?

* Note - "FB" does not stand for FUBAR.

 

[GatorAZ]

Whiz has more power than guys like Tomlin, McCarthy and Coughlin. Only Belicheck should have that much say as a HC.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Branch had no place to play really. From what I've seen and read He wasn't mentally a true 3-4 NT and had Dockett and Campbell in front of him at DE.

Branch had all the physical tools you need to be a dominate NT in the NFL. Mentally he had all the tools you need to be a depth guy for life.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The impression I get from reading the various articles recently is that Graves is far less involved in talent evaluation than Keim,

Agreed.

But, after listening yesterday, the three I mentioned at the start of the thread say differently.

Supposidly, Graves and Whiz run the show.

The "talk" in the Cardinals organization is that Graves will be out as GM in the offseason, and Whiz is TBD.

 

[Duckjake]

Branch had all the physical tools you need to be a dominate NT in the NFL. Mentally he had all the tools you need to be a depth guy for life.

I guess that's why Branch has started 29 games for Seattle at DT/DE the last two seasons. You know, that Seattle Defense that is currently ranked #2 in points allowed.

I also disagree that Branch had all the physical tools to be a 3-4 NT. He is too tall at 6'6". Sopoaga, Dan Williams, Casey Hampton are prototype NTs. 6'1"-6'2" guys who weigh 325lbs.

 

[Catfish]

Coaches who do not play GM, know they have to adjust to the personnel given them. Coaches who play GM, think they don't have to do it.

This may be the greatest reason that coaches who play GM almost always seem to be less successful than ones who don't. It certainly is a reality that Whiz has never seemed to try to tailor his system to his players, opting instead to be content to plug-and-play without regard to the player's ability to execute his scheme.

It gives me pause to wonder how successful Whiz could have been here, had he simply chosen to give more thought and effort to accommodating the players needs even a little more than he has. This, especially in light of what was accomplished by changing up a little bit to accommodate Lindley against the Lions.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The Cards have needed a strong GM for, well for as long as I can remember. By strong I mean authoritative. Graves seems to kind of just go with what the HC wants. That's okay to a point, but you need a GM who can evaluate players and stick to their convictions. Alot of us here watch more games,players, and tape than Graves.

We know Keim, at least, has a player evaluation background. We don't really know if he has a strong personality though.

 

[az jam]

The Cards have needed a strong GM for, well for as long as I can remember. By strong I mean authoritative. Graves seems to kind of just go with what the HC wants. That's okay to a point, but you need a GM who can evaluate players and stick to their convictions. Alot of us here watch more games,players, and tape than Graves.

We know Keim, at least, has a player evaluation background. We don't really know if he has a strong personality though.

I totally agree with you on Graves. He has been here too long and is not a strong GM. I just really wonder if that is what the Bidwills want. The final decision on many players have been that of the Bidwills with Graves as their front man. I think its more complicated than we know. Its not a very effective organization.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I guess that's why Branch has started 29 games for Seattle at DT/DE the last two seasons. You know, that Seattle Defense that is currently ranked #2 in points allowed.

I also disagree that Branch had all the physical tools to be a 3-4 NT. He is too tall at 6'6". Sopoaga, Dan Williams, Casey Hampton are prototype NTs. 6'1"-6'2" guys who weigh 325lbs.

Yeah cause Ted Washington only played there for over a decade, raking in fat pay check after fat paycheck.

Alan Branch was replaced by David Carter, and we saw ZERO drop off. None.

That is like a Green Bay Packer fan talking about how good Daryn Colledge is because he starts for us.

Clemons, Mebane, and Irvin, those are the reasons that defense is #2 if you want to talk about the Hawks' defensive line.

You are NOT going to sell me on Alan Branch and how he can't play NT. That is just ridiculous. The guy is made for it, and doesn't have the mental capacity for it, or the work ethic.

Would rather have a David Carter who is willing to put the work in, and learn both DE positions, and the NT position instead of some fat head who constantly talks about where he cannot play. Branch can't be that good if he has to be play one particular place, and one particular way.