What I Saw

[Krangodnzr]

Do you feel our offense is overly managed? What I mean by that is does Kliff over think things?

Is he a paper coach who's too interested in looking clever with his play design over getting yards and points?

For example, look at the Seahawks and Packers. They aren't running 15 play 90 yard drives. They are playing old fashioned football.

DK, you run to the left hash on the 10 yard line, Russ will put the ball in that area and you adjust to it.

Same with the Packers, they play fairly simple but effective football. Out routes, go routes, TE slants. Nothing remotely as intricate as what Kilff does.

He he stifling Kyler's natural talent into a bunch of 5 yard passes and receiver screens?

I think the overall concepts that Kingsbury runs are pretty solid and they can and are working in the NFL, not just with the Cardinals but with the Chiefs and Ravens as well. Where I have an issue with Kliff is that he sometimes calls weird plays at the wrong time. What I mean by that is a slow developing play that if the defense stops it, the Cardinals get a loss of 5 yards on 2nd and 15. If I'm picking a play, I'm going to usually stick with the conventional wisdom and try to pick up 8 quick yards to make it 3rd and manageable.

This approach has been mostly successful. If Kyler just takes what the defense gives him in this game, the Cardinals win by 14 points and we have none of this handwringing.

I look at Kliff's offense and I really like what it has morphed into. Take the yards the defense is leaving on the field.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think the overall concepts that Kingsbury runs are pretty solid and they can and are working in the NFL, not just with the Cardinals but with the Chiefs and Ravens as well. Where I have an issue with Kliff is that he sometimes calls weird plays at the wrong time. What I mean by that is a slow developing play that if the defense stops it, the Cardinals get a loss of 5 yards on 2nd and 15. If I'm picking a play, I'm going to usually stick with the conventional wisdom and try to pick up 8 quick yards to make it 3rd and manageable.

This approach has been mostly successful. If Kyler just takes what the defense gives him in this game, the Cardinals win by 14 points and we have none of this handwringing.

I look at Kliff's offense and I really like what it has morphed into. Take the yards the defense is leaving on the field.

I think Kliff is pretty good. He sometimes makes a poor play call, but more often than not he seems to have the right play at the right time considering how often guys seem to be open on every play. Once Kyler starts getting through his progressions quicker and more consistently finds the guy that gets open the better Kliff will look.

 

[football karma]

that was a bad loss. it happens

good teams put that behind them and play well. so we get to see next week

one thing i forget on Kyler:

he is still very inexperienced as a QB.

17 starts in college with 500 or so passing attempts. Mahomes had 1,350 in college. Deshaun Watson had 1,200.


QB is a repetition position. i am preparing myself for a couple of these inexplicable games from him this year. its part of the process

 

[Russ Smith]

Do you feel our offense is overly managed? What I mean by that is does Kliff over think things?

Is he a paper coach who's too interested in looking clever with his play design over getting yards and points?

For example, look at the Seahawks and Packers. They aren't running 15 play 90 yard drives. They are playing old fashioned football.

DK, you run to the left hash on the 10 yard line, Russ will put the ball in that area and you adjust to it.

Same with the Packers, they play fairly simple but effective football. Out routes, go routes, TE slants. Nothing remotely as intricate as what Kilff does.

He he stifling Kyler's natural talent into a bunch of 5 yard passes and receiver screens?

To be fair Green Bay has Rodgers one of the 10 best QB's in NFL history. And Seattle has Wilson who is a top 3 NFL QB right now, maybe top 2(with Mahomes).

Expecting Kliff to do with Kyler what those teams do with experienced veteran elite QB's is a big much at this point in his career. Again you have to remember how little Kyler actually played in college. He threw 500 passes in college(519) total. Wilson threw almost 1500, Rodgers only 665 at Cal but 2 year starter 25 games and had another 2 years and 500 plus passes in Juco.

Kyler was a football and baseball player who was a 1 year full time starter.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as either of those guys but he's already awfully good and going to get better.

 

[BritCard]

To be fair Green Bay has Rodgers one of the 10 best QB's in NFL history. And Seattle has Wilson who is a top 3 NFL QB right now, maybe top 2(with Mahomes).

Expecting Kliff to do with Kyler what those teams do with experienced veteran elite QB's is a big much at this point in his career. Again you have to remember how little Kyler actually played in college. He threw 500 passes in college(519) total. Wilson threw almost 1500, Rodgers only 665 at Cal but 2 year starter 25 games and had another 2 years and 500 plus passes in Juco.

Kyler was a football and baseball player who was a 1 year full time starter.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as either of those guys but he's already awfully good and going to get better.

All true, but what I'm suggesting isn't something new for a QB. I'm just saying rather than having these intricate, cleverly designed plays every down maybe sometimes he can just use his natural talents and throw a bomb for Nuk. Nuk will get it 9 times out of 10 because he knows where the ball is going to be, the DB doesn't and the other 1 will be incomplete.

We've all had a shot at Kyler for not going through his reads, and thats fair to a point, but watching the game back a vast, vast amount of what he is asked to do in the passing game is predetermined.

There was a play early on to Dan Arnold, one of only 2 catches he had I think. They had trips right with 2 guys stacked in the slot, Arnold as outside right receiver and Nuk on the left. Arnold ran a simple comeback for about 7 yards and the ball was out within a second of the snap. It was 100% predetermined and a lot of Kyler's passing plays are like that. A very large portion of them are snap, throw, catch for 5 yards. No read required.

Literally any remotely accurate QB could do it. Are we taking away Kyler's natural ability or stunting his growth with a paint by numbers offense?

Because it seems to me that while things are going well and the offense is ticking or we aren't behind too much, we can carry on playing this dink and dunk football but when we are behind 2 scores, or the defense keys in on the short stuff like the Lions, we don't seem to have a plan B. Or at least, not one that works.

 

[Krangodnzr]

All true, but what I'm suggesting isn't something new for a QB. I'm just saying rather than having these intricate, cleverly designed plays every down maybe sometimes he can just use his natural talents and throw a bomb for Nuk. Nuk will get it 9 times out of 10 because he knows where the ball is going to be, the DB doesn't and the other 1 will be incomplete.

We've all had a shot at Kyler for not going through his reads, and thats fair to a point, but watching the game back a vast, vast amount of what he is asked to do in the passing game is predetermined.

There was a play early on to Dan Arnold, one of only 2 catches he had I think. They had trips right with 2 guys stacked in the slot, Arnold as outside right receiver and Nuk on the left. Arnold ran a simple comeback for about 7 yards and the ball was out within a second of the snap. It was 100% predetermined and a lot of Kyler's passing plays are like that. A very large portion of them are snap, throw, catch for 5 yards. No read required.

Literally any remotely accurate QB could do it. Are we taking away Kyler's natural ability or stunting his growth with a paint by numbers offense?

Because it seems to me that while things are going well and the offense is ticking or we aren't behind too much, we can carry on playing this dink and dunk football but when we are behind 2 scores, or the defense keys in on the short stuff like the Lions, we don't seem to have a plan B. Or at least, not one that works.

Plenty of NFL teams run plays like that where it's almost a certainty a guy is going to get open. Teams do that because of stuff they saw during presnap reads. That's where the Haskins of the world struggle.

 

[BritCard]

Plenty of NFL teams run plays like that where it's almost a certainty a guy is going to get open. Teams do that because of stuff they saw during presnap reads. That's where the Haskins of the world struggle.

Sure they do, but as much as we do?

I understand teams will adjust at the LOS based on seeing a favourable match up but we aren't doing that. This is the actual play call. Designed to be exactly that all along. In the play I described about it was going to Arnold on the outside from the get go.

And thats ok, I have no problem with smart football, but are we doing too much of it? Is it stunting Kylers ability to go through his reads because he often doesn't need to? And what happens if we are down 2 scores with 6 minutes left? We haven't shown a propensity to be successful when we have to switch away from the scripted stuff to more "traditional" football.

 

[Chopper0080]

Sure they do, but as much as we do?

I understand teams will adjust at the LOS based on seeing a favourable match up but we aren't doing that. This is the actual play call. Designed to be exactly that all along. In the play I described about it was going to Arnold on the outside from the get go.

And thats ok, I have no problem with smart football, but are we doing too much of it? Is it stunting Kylers ability to go through his reads because he often doesn't need to? And what happens if we are down 2 scores with 6 minutes left? We haven't shown a propensity to be successful when we have to switch away from the scripted stuff to more "traditional" football.

A QB's willingness and desire to push the ball vertically dictates how often he progresses through his reads. A short to mid primary read does not dictate Kyler throws to that person. If Kyler wants a bigger play, he knows which progression he needs to go to. This means that either Kyler is seeing something defensively which is telling him the first read is the correct read OR he just doesn't want to hold the ball. An offensive playcaller's job is to give his QB as many options as possible on every play. The QB and his ability to read the defense dictate which options he chooses.

 

[SoonerLou]

I've grown to be a bigger fan of Kliff.

I still contend he was maybe the 3rd best play caller in the Big 12 his last couple of years in college.

Again I have been impressed with his ability to improve/adapt.

These type of spread sets leaves the QB vulnerable...and the QB knows it. So there is a tendency to get the ball out as fast as possible.

The tough part for Kliff as I stated in the thread I made IMO...Kyler only counters by running the ball. Not creating those passing plays from scrambling. It was a great equalizer for Manziel and Mahomes.

 

[Morty]

Why I'm not concerned:

1. Games like this are bound to happen to a young QB. Living in LA, I also marginally follow the Rams, especially since they are a divisional opponent. The Cardinals ask A LOT more of Murray than the Rams ask of Goff. Goff literally has a few simple reads on every play and McVay's motion based offense that stress the inside zone run and play action just gets guys wide open in space. Kingsbury's offense is similar in some aspects, but the difference I see is that the Cardinals run out a lot more looks, some quite exotic. This will take awhile for Murray to fully master along with having to master simple nuances of QB play.

2. Where Murray is pretty good right now is throwing outside the numbers. He is SPECIAL when it comes to throwing to receivers near the sidelines. He throws the ball with zip and accuracy, and the reality is that only about 10 QBs in the NFL throw better or as good as he does. What this means is that he has a tool that few QBs at any given time have and you don't have to limit what you ask him to do.

3. Did anyone see the stat that the Cardinals are 0-8-1 when Murray runs 5 times or less? I think this will get better with time. My reasoning? Few teams have tried what the Lions did (4 rushers, 7 in pass coverage) so Murray has to learn how to beat this look. He has the arm strength and accuracy to carve up these looks, and I think we will see a game soon where a team will run this type of look at Murray and he is going to carve it up. He needs to learn to be patient and when the rush isn't getting there, just sit back a bit more and find the openings in the zone.

4. Kingsbury HAS shown a propensity to grow from his mistakes. The Cardinals will figure this out; this was a simple correctable loss.

5. I like what I am seeing from the skill position players on offense. Isabella looks ready to play this year, and could be a dynamic playmaker. Hopkins has been even better than advertised, and if Murray had feed him the ball more, he probably would've had 18 catches this week. Daniels made a nice play or two at TE and I want to see him get the ball more. Edmonds has carved out a niche as the pass catching threat and runs a beautiful two man game with Murray. While everyone is concerned with Drake, he has been more than adequate and the Cardinals are currently averaging more yards rushing per game than they have in a long time. The offensive line hasn't been good, but it also hasn't been bad.

6. The Pass rush has been vastly improved this year, and you're seeing a number of different defenders not named Chandler Jones get sacks. The Cardinals currently have 11 sack through 3 games; they are on pace for 58 sacks on the season which is a fairly high number. I am more concerned about the lack of interceptions and TOs as a whole, but the Cardinals ARE putting pressure on QBs.

Awesome write up - Suggestion - make this a new thread

 

[Harry]

I want to clarify something. I’m not concerned about the 3 interceptions per se. Interceptions happens for many reasons, some of them caused by the receiver. When I look at Murray my question is how much has he progressed from last year? Some areas show improvement. Last year he couldn’t likely have completed that throw to Isabella in the corner of the end zone. He no longer panics, then falls immediately to the ground when rushed. He’s more aggressive about getting downfield when he runs. He now knows where the end zone is.

The issues that concern me mostly surround pocket presence. The great QBs have it. It’s not always something quickly developed but we should be starting to see movement in that direction. He didn’t get schooled in the art during college. He rarely faced a decent secondary that could read him. However he’s now in the NFL. His opponents will read his stare. Then they’ll jump the route. If he breaks that habit alone the Cards will add maybe 100 passing yards a game and Murray will have many more running lanes. This process is facilitated by using his progressions. If he does that he’ll be less focused on just his primary and become more difficult to read. Receivers will get open more often and face less double coverage. Not every team will take advantage of Murray’s current deficiencies. However, if the Cards want to make the playoffs and someday contend for a title they will need to avoid losing to teams like the Lions. It’s up to Murray how far they go.

 

[Morty]

I want to clarify something. I’m not concerned about the 3 interceptions per se. Interceptions happens for many reasons, some of them caused by the receiver. When I look at Murray my question is how much has he progressed from last year? Some areas show improvement. Last year he couldn’t likely have completed that throw to Isabella in the corner of the end zone. He no longer panics, then falls immediately to the ground when rushed. He’s more aggressive about getting downfield when he runs. He now knows where the end zone is.

The issues that concern me mostly surround pocket presence. The great QBs have it. It’s not always something quickly developed but we should be starting to see movement in that direction. He didn’t get schooled in the art during college. He rarely faced a decent secondary that could read him. However he’s now in the NFL. His opponents will read his stare. Then they’ll jump the route. If he breaks that habit alone the Cards will add maybe 100 passing yards a game and Murray will have many more running lanes. This process is facilitated by using his progressions. If he does that he’ll be less focused on just his primary and become more difficult to read. Receivers will get open more often and face less double coverage. Not every team will take advantage of Murray’s current deficiencies. However, if the Cards want to make the playoffs and someday contend for a title they will need to avoid losing to teams like the Lions. It’s up to Murray how far they go.

Awesome point!
Has anyone else noticed that Murray is doing more pump fakes this year?
Hopefully, the next step would be to fix or use the "stare".

 

[BritCard]

Another basic issue

We aren't targeting people not called Nuk enough. Fitz is still still a top half WR. He should be having 5 catches a game minimum.

Any while people like to dis Kirk he's a capable receiver and can do much more than he is.

Nuk should be getting 15 targets a game but there's plenty to go around.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I want to clarify something. I’m not concerned about the 3 interceptions per se. Interceptions happens for many reasons, some of them caused by the receiver. When I look at Murray my question is how much has he progressed from last year? Some areas show improvement. Last year he couldn’t likely have completed that throw to Isabella in the corner of the end zone. He no longer panics, then falls immediately to the ground when rushed. He’s more aggressive about getting downfield when he runs. He now knows where the end zone is.

The issues that concern me mostly surround pocket presence. The great QBs have it. It’s not always something quickly developed but we should be starting to see movement in that direction. He didn’t get schooled in the art during college. He rarely faced a decent secondary that could read him. However he’s now in the NFL. His opponents will read his stare. Then they’ll jump the route. If he breaks that habit alone the Cards will add maybe 100 passing yards a game and Murray will have many more running lanes. This process is facilitated by using his progressions. If he does that he’ll be less focused on just his primary and become more difficult to read. Receivers will get open more often and face less double coverage. Not every team will take advantage of Murray’s current deficiencies. However, if the Cards want to make the playoffs and someday contend for a title they will need to avoid losing to teams like the Lions. It’s up to Murray how far they go.

Why I'm optimistic is that we have seen Murray climb the ladder in the pocket. He wasn't often doing that last season and is doing it more this year.

Honestly, I'll have to see more games like last week's game before I'm worried. Murray has shown some proclivity to learn from his mistakes. He's still learning and the game doesn't seem to big to him.

The last young prospect that the Cardinals really game time to develop was Plummer. That guy absolutely did not learn from his mistakes. He never seemed to build on anything from game to game or season to season.

So far we see Murray taking less negative plays, running more, and his pocket presence has improved. Now we need to see him force the ball less and to try and leave less open plays on the field.

 

[DVontel]

Another basic issue

We aren't targeting people not called Nuk enough. Fitz is still still a top half WR. He should be having 5 catches a game minimum.

Any while people like to dis Kirk he's a capable receiver and can do much more than he is.

Nuk should be getting 15 targets a game but there's plenty to go around.

Define “top half”

 

[BritCard]

Define “top half”

Top half of the league. Of the 100 starting WRs he's top 50.

 

[SoonerLou]

Before the Lions game I posted a vid of him making plays against the Lions in 2019. He looked like a totally different guy..

Maybe we should have targeted him deep. In fact I would have felt better on that 2nd down back shoulder fade to Fitz than KJ. However, yea....he's not moving as well though. He looks heavy.

 

[Russ Smith]

All true, but what I'm suggesting isn't something new for a QB. I'm just saying rather than having these intricate, cleverly designed plays every down maybe sometimes he can just use his natural talents and throw a bomb for Nuk. Nuk will get it 9 times out of 10 because he knows where the ball is going to be, the DB doesn't and the other 1 will be incomplete.

We've all had a shot at Kyler for not going through his reads, and thats fair to a point, but watching the game back a vast, vast amount of what he is asked to do in the passing game is predetermined.

There was a play early on to Dan Arnold, one of only 2 catches he had I think. They had trips right with 2 guys stacked in the slot, Arnold as outside right receiver and Nuk on the left. Arnold ran a simple comeback for about 7 yards and the ball was out within a second of the snap. It was 100% predetermined and a lot of Kyler's passing plays are like that. A very large portion of them are snap, throw, catch for 5 yards. No read required.

Literally any remotely accurate QB could do it. Are we taking away Kyler's natural ability or stunting his growth with a paint by numbers offense?

Because it seems to me that while things are going well and the offense is ticking or we aren't behind too much, we can carry on playing this dink and dunk football but when we are behind 2 scores, or the defense keys in on the short stuff like the Lions, we don't seem to have a plan B. Or at least, not one that works.

Well like it or not that's a considerable part of the Air Raid offense. We're not playing the full college Air Raid of course, we don't do the big splits on the OL they do in college, NFL DL's are just too good to do that. We don't throw 65-70 % of the plays like they do in college either. But the basic idea of our routes and stuff has a lot of air raid to it.

And a big staple of that offense is short routes, short passes and get the ball out quickly, which means you have 1-2 reads and the ball has to be gone, or Kyler has to be running. 2 of his picks Sunday were that, he double pumped the one forced to Fitz, and he bought time on the other one and then threw late to to Hopkins who also didn't really come back to the ball.

So I guess you could be right but what you are basically saying then is the offense we hired KK to coach and Kyler to run, is the wrong offense. You could be right, but then that means we hired the wrong coach, or he has to completely change his offense

 

[Chopper0080]

Top half of the league. Of the 100 starting WRs he's top 50.

?

I thought there are 64 "starting" WRs and at most, 96.

 

[Russ Smith]

Another basic issue

We aren't targeting people not called Nuk enough. Fitz is still still a top half WR. He should be having 5 catches a game minimum.

Any while people like to dis Kirk he's a capable receiver and can do much more than he is.

Nuk should be getting 15 targets a game but there's plenty to go around.

I love Fitz he's a top 5 all time Cardinal and clearly the best since we moved to Arizona. That said I don't think Fitz is a top half Wr anymore .he still has insanely good hands, he blocks, he's tough as nails and a team guy. But he really can't get open very often anymore. since about 2012 his YPC has come down, some of that is moving inside, much of it is he has no speed anymore. Last 4 seasons just over 10 YPC, this year about 7. Some of that is the offense, some of it is Kyler, much of IMO is Larry is 37 years old and he doesn't have wheels anymore. Still want him on the team, still a valuable guy, but he lacks the ability to get separation throws to him now are largely based on his hands and use of his body to shield a defender.

I can agree about throwing to Hopkins so much except teams really can't cover him, 37 targets 32 catches this year, that's amazing considering he's the primary guy and he's been doubled often. Fitz is 12 for 15 which is very good but they're all short passes, longest this year is 12 yards.

Again I love Fitz but at this point in his career he's almost a good receiving TE.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Well like it or not that's a considerable part of the Air Raid offense. We're not playing the full college Air Raid of course, we don't do the big splits on the OL they do in college, NFL DL's are just too good to do that. We don't throw 65-70 % of the plays like they do in college either. But the basic idea of our routes and stuff has a lot of air raid to it.

And a big staple of that offense is short routes, short passes and get the ball out quickly, which means you have 1-2 reads and the ball has to be gone, or Kyler has to be running. 2 of his picks Sunday were that, he double pumped the one forced to Fitz, and he bought time on the other one and then threw late to to Hopkins who also didn't really come back to the ball.

So I guess you could be right but what you are basically saying then is the offense we hired KK to coach and Kyler to run, is the wrong offense. You could be right, but then that means we hired the wrong coach, or he has to completely change his offense

I think the concept of teams "throwing too much" is completely antiquated, especially when the throws are short. The Cardinals have mostly had a healthy time of possession and Kingsbury has changed some of his preferences to play a more NFL game. All of these concepts are based on the old West Coast offense concepts, even though it has changed with time and with many different offshoots.

Kingsbury talked about the illusion of complexity and that's a lot of what we see on plays. There is a ton of window dressing to confuse a defense and to force individual defenders to make a mistake, but the QB often has a few easy reads to get quick yards. Nothing wrong with this.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I love Fitz he's a top 5 all time Cardinal and clearly the best since we moved to Arizona. That said I don't think Fitz is a top half Wr anymore .he still has insanely good hands, he blocks, he's tough as nails and a team guy. But he really can't get open very often anymore. since about 2012 his YPC has come down, some of that is moving inside, much of it is he has no speed anymore. Last 4 seasons just over 10 YPC, this year about 7. Some of that is the offense, some of it is Kyler, much of IMO is Larry is 37 years old and he doesn't have wheels anymore. Still want him on the team, still a valuable guy, but he lacks the ability to get separation throws to him now are largely based on his hands and use of his body to shield a defender.

I can agree about throwing to Hopkins so much except teams really can't cover him, 37 targets 32 catches this year, that's amazing considering he's the primary guy and he's been doubled often. Fitz is 12 for 15 which is very good but they're all short passes, longest this year is 12 yards.

Again I love Fitz but at this point in his career he's almost a good receiving TE.

I've made the same argument about Fitz with my non-Cardinals fans friends: Fitz is really just a good receiving TE now. If you look at the routes he runs, that's essentially what he is.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the concept of teams "throwing too much" is completely antiquated, especially when the throws are short. The Cardinals have mostly had a healthy time of possession and Kingsbury has changed some of his preferences to play a more NFL game. All of these concepts are based on the old West Coast offense concepts, even though it has changed with time and with many different offshoots.

Kingsbury talked about the illusion of complexity and that's a lot of what we see on plays. There is a ton of window dressing to confuse a defense and to force individual defenders to make a mistake, but the QB often has a few easy reads to get quick yards. Nothing wrong with this.

Agreed I just mean ratio is not what it is in college. 113 passes, 95 runs, in college in an air raid that would be more like 140 passes 70 runs or even more passing. You can run short passing in the NFL absolutely but as we saw in that first game against SF, teams are going to take shots at him, some of them late, so with our ability to run, we are going to do it more than you would in college

Kyler has to get better, so does Kliff, I do think unless this is a trend, it's a bit of an overreaction to one bad game. He wasn't the league MVP after 2 games, and he's not a "problem" after 1 bad game. He has things he has to improve on, we'll see if Kliff is the guy to get him to that. I have also wondered if it helps or hurts that his dad is a QB coach?

 

[BritCard]

?

I thought there are 64 "starting" WRs and at most, 96.

Most teams start 3. I was rounding up.

 

[SoonerLou]

Well like it or not that's a considerable part of the Air Raid offense. We're not playing the full college Air Raid of course, we don't do the big splits on the OL they do in college, NFL DL's are just too good to do that. We don't throw 65-70 % of the plays like they do in college either. But the basic idea of our routes and stuff has a lot of air raid to it.

And a big staple of that offense is short routes, short passes and get the ball out quickly, which means you have 1-2 reads and the ball has to be gone, or Kyler has to be running. 2 of his picks Sunday were that, he double pumped the one forced to Fitz, and he bought time on the other one and then threw late to to Hopkins who also didn't really come back to the ball.

So I guess you could be right but what you are basically saying then is the offense we hired KK to coach and Kyler to run, is the wrong offense. You could be right, but then that means we hired the wrong coach, or he has to completely change his offense

Hopkins has been amazing. However, I wonder if constantly missing Wednesday practices isnt good for a young QB you didnt have OTAs with.

Already know Fitz rests that day as well. Idk. Kirk being limited/out kinda shows how this passing attack isnt flowing like it should.

People see it as accuracy issue. I see it as a timing issue.