Week 6 2022: Heroes and Goats

kerouac9

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There are two risks in firing someone:

1) There is no addition by subtraction and you hurt morale because everyone below them is now working harder
2) It's harder than you think to upgrade in the role

It's easy for fans to call for the coach's head because it eases the pain and embarrassment of the last (few) week(s). But it creates chaos inside the organization. Instead of everyone pulling together, people are panicked and splitting time between preparing for the next week and finding a lifeboat for next season.

I'm not worried much about #2 if and when Kliff Kingsbury is fired. I supported his hire and have believed in him since. At this point, though, the lots are cast. The relationship with Kyler Murray is probably irreparably broken, and Kyler is more valuable and a greater sunk cost than Kliff.

That said, there are 11 games left this season. If Kliff is fired you're looking at Cam Turner or Spencer Whipple as the offensive coordinator and playcaller. Do people really believe that Kliff is holding these guys back? Also, who the heck is Kenny Bell?

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Zaven Collins, ILB - Credit where it's due. Collins has been playing more and more snaps the past few weeks, but not making many splash plays. This week Collins cashed in with two sacks (one a full-effort cleanup on a broken play) and a pass defensed. It's easy to imagine him being the fourth- or fifth-best player on a quality unit by the end of the season.

Antonio Hamilton, CB - Greased Lightning played 19 snaps and helped a defensive secondary hold DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett to 4 receptions for 51 yards COMBINED. It was good to see him jawing with Metcalf late in the game. The secondary brings the attitude to this team and is the only group with earned swagger.

Zach Ertz, TE - Hard to find bright spots in the offense right now, but Ertz is delivering on his contract extension. He wasn't targeted in the first half(!!!) but came alive when given real chances in the second, getting seven receptions for 70 yards. It's mystifying why he's not more involved in the red zone and freeing up the WR screen with a downfield block.

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Kyler Murray, QB - I think Kliff Kingsbury was smart to put the ball in Kyler's hands for the first series. The opening field-goal drive featured nine plays, three of which were runs for Murray. Eno Benjamin also had two successful runs. It's hard to tell from watching the game tape, but I wonder how often Kyler makes the wrong decision on these read-options.

Rondale Moore, WR - Rondale Moore played 70 snaps. Are you not entertained? It seems like most every play he wanders out to the sideline and waits to be Kyler's dump-off option. Maybe he's actually a dynamic playmaker out there, but it's really hard to make the argument that he is and the coaches just don't like big plays or getting yards.

Kliff Kingsbury, HC - This is a results-oriented business. Let's check in on those results:

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:barf:
 
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Fully agree with all this except Ertz having to touchdown!
 

gmabel830

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I think Moore's been fine the last two weeks - even showed a couple of flashes. He can only run the routes that are called for him.

If you aren't going after Keim, I would say the entire OL should be the third goat with Kyler - Kliff.
 

juza76

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I think Moore's been fine the last two weeks - even showed a couple of flashes. He can only run the routes that are called for him.

If you aren't going after Keim, I would say the entire OL should be the third goat with Kyler - Kliff.
Moore took all the snaps from Dortch and from the point our offense has been putrid
Don't know if it's a conceidence or what
Dortch was the most dynamic receiver, didn't make splash plays, but he moved all over the field getting open frequently ,was the most reliable target to move the chains
 
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kerouac9

kerouac9

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100% on Kingsbury that AJ Green and Rondale Moore get snaps over Dortch. There is no reason for either to do so.

Green getting 10x more snaps than Dortch is irresponsible. Obviously Green is the only big body we can throw out there (aside from Wims), but it's wild that he got 49 snaps and four targets.
 

Arz101

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Moore took all the snaps from Dortch and from the point our offense has been putrid
Don't know if it's a conceidence or what
Dortch was the most dynamic receiver, didn't make splash plays, but he moved all over the field getting open frequently ,was the most reliable target to move the chains
It is absolutely insane that Moore is being used as #2 WR when plays like a replacement level wide out. Just mind blowing and the dude cannot block either.
 

Crimson Warrior

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Thanks for content @kerouac9 !

I agree with you about the "careful what you wish for" with firing K2. Firing him today or even after a New Orleans rout would be a panic move. 100%. He gets the rest of the season at least, even if we're holding our noses by game 17.

And I'll buck the trend a little by stating that I'm going to keep the faith in this group for a little while longer. Not much reason to hope, but I still remember being 10-2 last year, and it seems illogical to me that we've really and truly regressed on offense as much as we appeared to see yesterday.


Heroes:

1. VJ - left for dead after the KC game, he's made our defense competitive with guys like Ben Nieman and Tanner Vallejo.

2. Zaven Collins

3. Byron Murphy. The Answer shut down another Top ten NFL receiver yesterday. Just shut Metcalf the F down. Go sit down DJ! You weirdo!


Goats:

1. K1 - as a pure passer, I've never seen him play more poorly than yesterday. Was miles better his rookie year. I guess he forgot how to play QB and/or doesn't want to win.

2. Offensive line - we played the worst NFL run defense in about 10 years yesterday, but if you take away QB runs, we averaged 2.4 yards on 18 carries. 44 total yards. Eno isn't that bad!

3. K2 - Harder to judge his performance, but ultimately he's responsible for the way the team plays, especially on offense. Eerily similar to K1, Kingsbury's promise of his rookie coaching season seems like a distant memory.

Honorable goat mention to Keim. If we had a kicker that could, you know, kick the football, we probably would have had a couple more field goals yesterday instead of going like 1 for 10 on 4th down. Great job on that one Steve. Quality GM work.


Sigh...
 

Krangodnzr

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I think two things can be true from looking at this team:

1. Kyler Murray can and will likely play better in the future. He has obvious NFL talent and can be at least a QB that can challenge for playoff spots most years.

2. Kliff is a smart offensive mind. He designs a lot of interesting plays that challenge defenses.

This next point can also be true: Kyler Murray and Kliff Kingsbury aren't a good match for each other. I think Kyler needs to have a coach that can challenge him. Stop making the offense all about making Kyler comfortable. Maybe that concept is actually holding Murray back. And I think from every bit of information we have seen, it's 100% hard to continue to argue that Murray is putting in the EXTRA work needed to be successful. I think Murray DOES put in work, but to be a highly successful QB in the NFL, you have to put in more work than any other player.

As broken as this team is, there are signs that some things are working pretty well. Zaven Collins is becoming the player that Keim said he would be. I think Collins is a keeper. Simmons is miscast on this defense and I would argue, his best fit is a WLB in a 4-3, not a do-it-all 3-4 ILB Swiss Army knife. The secondary is largely playing pretty well. Murphy, Wilson, now Hamilton, Baker, and Thompson are a good group. It was also nice to see each of the rookie pass rushers get a sack, a beautiful speed rush from Sanders and grown man sack from Cam Thomas.

If I'm the Cardinals brain trust, I approach Kliff and I tell him that after the Saints game, he has to make major changes to the offense. Have Spencer Whipple involved in the playcalling. Significantly more under center snaps, more 12 personnel, and more playaction.
 

Krangodnzr

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2. Offensive line - we played the worst NFL run defense in about 10 years yesterday, but if you take away QB runs, we averaged 2.4 yards on 18 carries. 44 total yards. Eno isn't that bad!
Pete Carroll is a pretty damn smart defensive coach, and he knows how to play the Cardinals. Line up a bunch of LBs and DBs near the line of scrimmage and play the run on the way to the QB. Whenever the Cardinals have played the Seahawks, we often see this result. This is the result of conviction: the players KNOW how to play the Cardinals offense and know that Murray struggles to beat this kind of defense.
 

ASUCHRIS

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2. Kliff is a smart offensive mind. He designs a lot of interesting plays that challenge defenses.
Does he?

Challenged the WORST D in football to the tune of 3 points for the offense?

Can we stop the madness here trying to pretend that Kliff is an NFL coach? He's an ok college coordinator - he'll never be a successful head coach in the NFL because his teams are supremely undisciplined, and he's not a leader.

This clown show so far this year is far worse than anyone could have predicted, and the sooner we cut bait with Kliff/Keim, the sooner the healing can begin.
 

Krangodnzr

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Does he?

Challenged the WORST D in football to the tune of 3 points for the offense?

Can we stop the madness here trying to pretend that Kliff is an NFL coach? He's an ok college coordinator - he'll never be a successful head coach in the NFL because his teams are supremely undisciplined, and he's not a leader.

This clown show so far this year is far worse than anyone could have predicted, and the sooner we cut bait with Kliff/Keim, the sooner the healing can begin.
Bro did you see the steaming pile of crap at QB? Last I checked, Kliff took zero snaps yesterday.
 

82CardsGrad

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There are two risks in firing someone:

1) There is no addition by subtraction and you hurt morale because everyone below them is now working harder
2) It's harder than you think to upgrade in the role

It's easy for fans to call for the coach's head because it eases the pain and embarrassment of the last (few) week(s). But it creates chaos inside the organization. Instead of everyone pulling together, people are panicked and splitting time between preparing for the next week and finding a lifeboat for next season.

I'm not worried much about #2 if and when Kliff Kingsbury is fired. I supported his hire and have believed in him since. At this point, though, the lots are cast. The relationship with Kyler Murray is probably irreparably broken, and Kyler is more valuable and a greater sunk cost than Kliff.

That said, there are 11 games left this season. If Kliff is fired you're looking at Cam Turner or Spencer Whipple as the offensive coordinator and playcaller. Do people really believe that Kliff is holding these guys back? Also, who the heck is Kenny Bell?

You must be registered for see images attach
Zaven Collins, ILB - Credit where it's due. Collins has been playing more and more snaps the past few weeks, but not making many splash plays. This week Collins cashed in with two sacks (one a full-effort cleanup on a broken play) and a pass defensed. It's easy to imagine him being the fourth- or fifth-best player on a quality unit by the end of the season.

Antonio Hamilton, CB - Greased Lightning played 19 snaps and helped a defensive secondary hold DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett to 4 receptions for 51 yards COMBINED. It was good to see him jawing with Metcalf late in the game. The secondary brings the attitude to this team and is the only group with earned swagger.

Zach Ertz, TE - Hard to find bright spots in the offense right now, but Ertz is delivering on his contract extension. He wasn't targeted in the first half(!!!) but came alive when given real chances in the second, getting seven receptions for 70 yards. It's mystifying why he's not more involved in the red zone and freeing up the WR screen with a downfield block.

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Kyler Murray, QB - I think Kliff Kingsbury was smart to put the ball in Kyler's hands for the first series. The opening field-goal drive featured nine plays, three of which were runs for Murray. Eno Benjamin also had two successful runs. It's hard to tell from watching the game tape, but I wonder how often Kyler makes the wrong decision on these read-options.

Rondale Moore, WR - Rondale Moore played 70 snaps. Are you not entertained? It seems like most every play he wanders out to the sideline and waits to be Kyler's dump-off option. Maybe he's actually a dynamic playmaker out there, but it's really hard to make the argument that he is and the coaches just don't like big plays or getting yards.

Kliff Kingsbury, HC - This is a results-oriented business. Let's check in on those results:

You must be registered for see images attach


:barf:
Curious as to what about Kliffy brought you to the point where you've supported not only his hiring, but apparently your continued support? What about the guy engenders support of him, unless you dig his metro cool style? Seriously... what am I missing?
 

ASUCHRIS

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Bro did you see the steaming pile of crap at QB? Last I checked, Kliff took zero snaps yesterday.
Kliff is the hand picked coach to unlock the best out of our QB. Our QB ain't getting better, and seems to be getting worse!

Kliff showed last year that he has taken the team as far as he can go - Kyler desperately needs a leader, and someone who will push him. Kliff ain't it.
 

Krangodnzr

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Kliff is the hand picked coach to unlock the best out of our QB. Our QB ain't getting better, and seems to be getting worse!
Read the rest of my post.
Kliff showed last year that he has taken the team as far as he can go - Kyler desperately needs a leader, and someone who will push him. Kliff ain't it.
Read the rest of my post.
 

Krangodnzr

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Curious as to what about Kliffy brought you to the point where you've supported not only his hiring, but apparently your continued support? What about the guy engenders support of him, unless you dig his metro cool style? Seriously... what am I missing?
There is the idea that:

1. Kyler is incredibly difficult to coach and doesn't listen to feedback that he doesn't agree with.
2. Kyler isn't working hard enough to be successful.

When you run an offense that is reliant on the QB to make plays and that QB stinks up the joint, your offense is going to look like crap.

Either way, there is a lot more invested in Murray, and if this continues the easier move is to can Kingsbury.
 

wa52lz

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There are two risks in firing someone:

1) There is no addition by subtraction and you hurt morale because everyone below them is now working harder
2) It's harder than you think to upgrade in the role

It's easy for fans to call for the coach's head because it eases the pain and embarrassment of the last (few) week(s). But it creates chaos inside the organization. Instead of everyone pulling together, people are panicked and splitting time between preparing for the next week and finding a lifeboat for next season.

I'm not worried much about #2 if and when Kliff Kingsbury is fired. I supported his hire and have believed in him since. At this point, though, the lots are cast. The relationship with Kyler Murray is probably irreparably broken, and Kyler is more valuable and a greater sunk cost than Kliff.

That said, there are 11 games left this season. If Kliff is fired you're looking at Cam Turner or Spencer Whipple as the offensive coordinator and playcaller. Do people really believe that Kliff is holding these guys back? Also, who the heck is Kenny Bell?

You must be registered for see images attach
Zaven Collins, ILB - Credit where it's due. Collins has been playing more and more snaps the past few weeks, but not making many splash plays. This week Collins cashed in with two sacks (one a full-effort cleanup on a broken play) and a pass defensed. It's easy to imagine him being the fourth- or fifth-best player on a quality unit by the end of the season.

Antonio Hamilton, CB - Greased Lightning
played 19 snaps and helped a defensive secondary hold DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett to 4 receptions for 51 yards COMBINED. It was good to see him jawing with Metcalf late in the game. The secondary brings the attitude to this team and is the only group with earned swagger.

Zach Ertz, TE - Hard to find bright spots in the offense right now, but Ertz is delivering on his contract extension. He wasn't targeted in the first half(!!!) but came alive when given real chances in the second, getting seven receptions for 70 yards. It's mystifying why he's not more involved in the red zone and freeing up the WR screen with a downfield block.

You must be registered for see images attach
Kyler Murray, QB - I think Kliff Kingsbury was smart to put the ball in Kyler's hands for the first series. The opening field-goal drive featured nine plays, three of which were runs for Murray. Eno Benjamin also had two successful runs. It's hard to tell from watching the game tape, but I wonder how often Kyler makes the wrong decision on these read-options.

Rondale Moore, WR - Rondale Moore played 70 snaps. Are you not entertained? It seems like most every play he wanders out to the sideline and waits to be Kyler's dump-off option. Maybe he's actually a dynamic playmaker out there, but it's really hard to make the argument that he is and the coaches just don't like big plays or getting yards.

Kliff Kingsbury, HC - This is a results-oriented business. Let's check in on those results:

You must be registered for see images attach


:barf:
Antonio Hamilton, CB - Greased Lightning!!!!!!!

maybe your best work ever!
 
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kerouac9

kerouac9

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Curious as to what about Kliffy brought you to the point where you've supported not only his hiring, but apparently your continued support? What about the guy engenders support of him, unless you dig his metro cool style? Seriously... what am I missing?
I should have been more clear. I'm done with Kingsbury and think he should be fired at the end of the season if things don't turn around in a big way.

I just disagree with the assertion that "It's all on Kingsbury." He owns the ultimate responsibility as the head guy, but I don't think it you replace him with a replacement-level head coach like Kevin Stefanski you're going to get better results.
 
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