Week 2 2022: Heroes and Goats

cheesebeef

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I've been on him for this tendency for years. It's not on Kyler his boy Hollywood Brown (who is only here because they're boys and is famous for dropping passes with Baltimore) dropped the pass. It is on Kyler that he threw the pass, which was reckless when they game was on the line at 4th and 1.

Kyler got bailed out multiple times in this game and people are acting like he woke up from a late nap and decided to be great. Think about how contingent this result was on things happening outside Kyler's control for this result.
Sorry. That’s just plain stupid. It was a perfect play call that had the Raiders totally off balance and a perfect pass that was dropped.

And your last paragraph is bunk. The majority of people pushing back on you aren’t saying Kyler “played great”. They’re pushing back for you basically listing him as a loser… while also championing VJ who’s defense was just as bad as Kyler in the first half.

But I’m done here because you are doing exactly what the over the top Kool-Aiders do. It’s pointless trying to talk to them about certain things and it’s apparent that the same is true with you about this thread.
 
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GoldGloveschmidt

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VJs defense allowed the same amount of points that Kyler's offense was able to score. Holding them to the same standard is hilarious because one unit has a 250 mil franchise QB and the other is a band of misfit toys.

Comparing "Kyler's offense" to "VJs defense" is nonsense. Kliff is Vance's counterpart. It's Kliff's offense. Kyler is a player.

Listing Kyler as a "goat" in this game is one of the craziest things I've ever seen on this board. I'm gonna bow out of this one now because it's just too much.
 
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Russ Smith

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I was talking about this in the gameday thread

Raiders started playing soft and giving KM the middle of the field which allowed him to make some completions and get comfortable

Prevent defense prevents you from winning

I actually rewatched the game today and honestly they didn't. They were playing 2 deep safeties basically the whole game. The first drive was wrecked by a Max Crosby sack but we threw 2 passes on that drive a 6 yarder to Hollywood and a 10 yarder to hollywood both of them were obviously short passes. on the sack you can't really tell where Kyler was going because Crosby beat his man so quickly.

Second drive 5 yard run, 5 yard pass to Ertz first down. 4 yard run then the intentional grounding on Kyler which again was blown up by Crosby, it was a short pass play it appeared but Kyler got flushed and threw it away so can't really be sure what the original play was going to be. 3rd and 21 dumpoff to Conner for 5 and a punt.

3rd drive a run, a short pass to Conner that went for 20 yards, another run a short pass to Green that came back due to ineligible downfield. Short pass to Ertz, then an incompletion on a play he again got flushed out quickly and tried to hit Conner downfield and missed. 3rd down short pass was picked but the guy held Hollywood so we got the first down. run, run and then the ill fated throw to hollywood that got picked where he should have run.

3 drives 2 throws more than than 10 yards downfield and literally every time we attempted to go downfield the Raiders passrush or Kyler panicking flushed him from the pocket. not a single play downfield where he threw from the pocket.

The difference in the 2nd half IMO was we did more moving of personnel, and we played more with a RB, sometimes 2, or 2 TE's so we had someone to chip Crosby. In the 3rd quarter we were chipping Crosby on almost every pass play.

By the 4th quarter as harry pointed out the Raiders looked exhausted but not surprising we managed to run 51 plays in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

It seemed like they decided in the first half that Beachum couldn't block Crosby so they shifted to chipping him.
 

Russ Smith

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He had a holding penalty on the previous scoring drive that bailed us out also.

He had the stupid shovel scoop that hit Eno in the face that was about an inch from being intercepted.

Hell, even on the game tying score we had 8 downs in the RZ before we scored. We had 4, was saved by the holding, got a whole new set of downs inside the 5, had 3 god awful plays before getting the score. And even then he had to run it in after 3 bad passing plays. Although granted one of them AJ Green had the ball knocked out.

Even when bringing us back there were more bad passing plays than good ones.


Speaking of that scoop Eno turned so he clearly knew it was coming but it bothered me live and I watched it again today, Eno's hands were both underneath the ball. It was weird I know the flip was high but really weird the way Eno tried to catch it he had both hands down low so the flip had to be really low. if he'd had one hand up to get on the top of the ball that's a TD but he was expecting it low and came in high and hot. Very lucky it wasn't picked. Liked the call just not executed
 

Russ Smith

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Wonder what they would be like if Hollywood holds on to the damn ball and cards easily kick game winning FG? Ifs and buts geesh enjoy the win guys it was historic performance from a QB and people trying to trash him what a joke!

in OT the Raiders would have still gotten the ball because a FG on the first possession doesn't end the game. So we would have won by 9 not 6 after the fumble return
 

Russ Smith

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I don’t know if he even caught that two point conversion in the back of the end zone.

Watching it in slow mo I don't think he did but the call on the field was catch and the replays they showed were not clear enough to overturn. I think there's a point where his hand is not completely under the ball but it's not conclusive so original call held up. I don't think he caught it
 

PACardsFan

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I actually rewatched the game today and honestly they didn't. They were playing 2 deep safeties basically the whole game. The first drive was wrecked by a Max Crosby sack but we threw 2 passes on that drive a 6 yarder to Hollywood and a 10 yarder to hollywood both of them were obviously short passes. on the sack you can't really tell where Kyler was going because Crosby beat his man so quickly.

Second drive 5 yard run, 5 yard pass to Ertz first down. 4 yard run then the intentional grounding on Kyler which again was blown up by Crosby, it was a short pass play it appeared but Kyler got flushed and threw it away so can't really be sure what the original play was going to be. 3rd and 21 dumpoff to Conner for 5 and a punt.

3rd drive a run, a short pass to Conner that went for 20 yards, another run a short pass to Green that came back due to ineligible downfield. Short pass to Ertz, then an incompletion on a play he again got flushed out quickly and tried to hit Conner downfield and missed. 3rd down short pass was picked but the guy held Hollywood so we got the first down. run, run and then the ill fated throw to hollywood that got picked where he should have run.

3 drives 2 throws more than than 10 yards downfield and literally every time we attempted to go downfield the Raiders passrush or Kyler panicking flushed him from the pocket. not a single play downfield where he threw from the pocket.

The difference in the 2nd half IMO was we did more moving of personnel, and we played more with a RB, sometimes 2, or 2 TE's so we had someone to chip Crosby. In the 3rd quarter we were chipping Crosby on almost every pass play.

By the 4th quarter as harry pointed out the Raiders looked exhausted but not surprising we managed to run 51 plays in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

It seemed like they decided in the first half that Beachum couldn't block Crosby so they shifted to chipping him.
Beachum is done! Time to replace him with Jones.
 

Russ Smith

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Beachum is done! Time to replace him with Jones.

Crosby is REALLY good but I also noticed a couple of times in the first half almost seemed like Beachum thought someone else was going to help and didn't. Not sure why but he just seemed like a CB thinking he had safety help when he didn't.
 

Russ Smith

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We should add Pugh to the heroes. Per Hump after the game Pugh ran to the other side of the field to yell at a Raider fan who had been taunting the Cards all game. Hump said the guy wasn't really profane just extremely loud, and he just never stopped. When he asked Pugh why he ran down there Pugh explained and Hump said that made me very happy. He declined to say what Pugh told the guy said there'd be too many bleeps if I told you let's just say the guy got an earful
 

Zalixar

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Watching it in slow mo I don't think he did but the call on the field was catch and the replays they showed were not clear enough to overturn. I think there's a point where his hand is not completely under the ball but it's not conclusive so original call held up. I don't think he caught it

The ball can still touch the ground in a catch. His arm seems to be between the ground and the ball the whole time.

If it wasn't then it was a split second, but even then that would be hard to say cause when he rolled around and it was visible he was very much in control of the ball.

But either way, it wasn't even close to overturn it. Game of inches though, that db's hand almost got a piece of it. I bet he's kicking himself over it.
 

Russ Smith

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The ball can still touch the ground in a catch. His arm seems to be between the ground and the ball the whole time.

If it wasn't then it was a split second, but even then that would be hard to say cause when he rolled around and it was visible he was very much in control of the ball.

But either way, it wasn't even close to overturn it. Game of inches though, that db's hand almost got a piece of it. I bet he's kicking himself over it.

I guess what I'm saying is if the call on the field had been incomplete, it would not have been overturned either.
 

Jetstream Green

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I think the problem with this whole goat or hero thread is not identifying the proper use of the words. This is not about who played the best if one uses these words in proper context, it is about who in crunch time contributed the most towards final victory when people use such words. Considering this, the heroes would be Kyler Murray, Simmons and Murphy and the goats would be along the lines of Renfro (yeah, the full bug including both teams and this guy fumbled twice in a row) and Hollywood Brown for not securing that ball and possibly ending it sooner. Who rose or failed to rise to the occasion. DJ Humphries played better than Kyler if you are looking for the best player for four quarters, but this is about who tipped the balance or not
A good analogy for instance, a cavalry soldier was a coward during the battle but at the end got off a lucky shot downing a war chief which sealed the battle making him the hero of the battle, but hardly the best soldier during the confrontation. This why a freaking kicker is called a hero or a goat, while making that final kick or not, when he hardly had anything to do what we actually call playing the physical aspect which forms the foundation of the sport
 

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Sorry. That’s just plain stupid. It was a perfect play call that had the Raiders totally off balance and a perfect pass that was dropped.

And your last paragraph is bunk. The majority of people pushing back on you aren’t saying Kyler “played great”. They’re pushing back for you basically listing him as a loser… while also championing VJ who’s defense was just as bad as Kyler in the first half.

But I’m done here because you are doing exactly what the over the top Kool-Aiders do. It’s pointless trying to talk to them about certain things and it’s apparent that the same is true with you about this thread.

It wasn't dropped was it? He was hit about 0.5 seconds after catching it by a 200lb safety running full speed. It was knocked out.
 

BritCard

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Crosby is REALLY good but I also noticed a couple of times in the first half almost seemed like Beachum thought someone else was going to help and didn't. Not sure why but he just seemed like a CB thinking he had safety help when he didn't.

Beachum game up 1 sack and 4 pressures on 50 passing snaps. Seems ok to me.
 

BritCard

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Speaking of that scoop Eno turned so he clearly knew it was coming but it bothered me live and I watched it again today, Eno's hands were both underneath the ball. It was weird I know the flip was high but really weird the way Eno tried to catch it he had both hands down low so the flip had to be really low. if he'd had one hand up to get on the top of the ball that's a TD but he was expecting it low and came in high and hot. Very lucky it wasn't picked. Liked the call just not executed

Those flips and normally into the belly, was a very high pass from Kyler.
 

BritCard

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dude is gonna want 100mil next season

guys that get 100mil hold on to that ball.

I doubt it, on both counts.

It's here at 10:43. If anything the ball was under thrown. He has to turn, leap and extend to catch it and he's hit a fraction of a second later as he's tucking it. Not sure what more Hollywood can do there. It's the only way he can catch the ball.

I'd argue the window is there to hit him in stride and house it. Or at least catch it in such a way that it's more secure and he can see the safety coming.

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Stout

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Comparing "Kyler's offense" to "VJs defense" is nonsense. Kliff is Vance's counterpart. It's Kliff's offense. Kyler is a player.

Listing Kyler as a "goat" in this game is one of the craziest things I've ever seen on this board. I'm gonna bow out of this one now because it's just too much.
While in the past I've said KM needs to elevate those around him, I have to agree with you. KM was far from the problem in the 1st half.
 
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