Watching the Twins succeed from afar.....

[Phrazbit]

The idea that if we don’t win a title it’s a dumpster fire presumes the team as previously constructed… which choked like DOGS two years in a row with HCA… would have definitely won a title when there is ZERO EVIDENCE that’s true.

No, it does not in the slightest.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, it does not in the slightest.

it really does.

 

[Phrazbit]

it really does.

No, it really doesn't.

Opportunity cost.

Nothing said we had to do one or the other.

Furthermore, you haaaaaaaate when people put words in your mouth or twist your stance into something it isn't. So don't do it.

 

[Hoop Head]

it really does.

No, it doesn't. Can you stop putting words in peoples mouth? You throw a tantrum when you think others do that when talking to you and yet you continue to do it to others who have differing views.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, it really doesn't.

Opportunity cost.

Nothing said we had to do one or the other.

Furthermore, you haaaaaaaate when people put words in your mouth or twist your stance into something it isn't. So don't do it.

it's the logical conclusion to your argument that anything less than a title is a dumpster fire. not my fault you're making such a flawed argument in favor of doing nothing and the guarantee that it would work out better... where the ONLY outcome being better is the Booker/Bridges/Ayton trio winning a title.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, it doesn't. Can you stop putting words in peoples mouth? You throw a tantrum when you think others do that when talking to you and yet you continue to do it to others who have differing views.

nah... I'm not putting words in his mouth. I'm showing what the the logical conclusion to his argument would be and taking it apart to show how flawed his premise is in the first place.

 

[Phrazbit]

it's the logical conclusion to your argument that anything less than a title is a dumpster fire. not my fault you're making such a flawed argument in favor of doing nothing and the guarantee that it would work out better... where the ONLY outcome being better is the Booker/Bridges/Ayton trio winning a title.

Opportunity cost.

You are claiming it was either/or... it wasn't, and that is a ridiculous and flawed argument.

 

[Hoop Head]

nah... I'm not putting words in his mouth. I'm showing what the the logical conclusion to his argument would be and taking it apart to show how flawed his premise is in the first place.

Why am I not surprised you'd think you're justified in making insane leaps assigning points to others they didn't make rather than admit you're being a hypocrite and show some contrition. There's really no use conversing with you at all.

 

[Covert Rain]

But it does because you can't guarantee his health and without him it looked we might slip out of the playoffs. So you can think it doesn't matter but it does and it even goes beyond that given how far into the luxury tax we now are because of his contract. He alone is making more than 2 starters did and he's on the books for that going forward. That impacts the level of talent we can surround him with. We're extremely limited in that regard because we don't even have a pick to add cheap young talent and will only have 1 pick in his first 3 seasons when he's most effective.



It is a different team now, for better and worse. Hopefully the better outweighs the worse. We don't know yet. It wasn't looking good at first but it certainly has improved over the last week or so.

My whole reply was about the floor being lower. That's what I took exception to. I definitely don't think our floor is higher now and that's what my post was refuting. At least we kind of agree in that regard. I think we can also agree that it's best for everyone if we don't learn what the floor is firsthand.

You can't guarantee the health of any player let alone guarantee that this team wouldn't have 3 epic collapses and regress even further as built. We regressed last year from the year before. We were playing without two of our toughest players even before the KD trade. CP3 was showing his age. The slide was continuing IMO.

The only thing that matters is how the team is playing now. The standings, the playoffs and every team we face in the playoffs couldn't care less what this team looked like before Durant. The only thing teams will be focused on is how this team plays NOW with Durant. Booker has the most talent around him he has ever had with KD in the lineup. Not the deepest bench but surely a much better starting lineup.

In terms of floor, that's why I said I could buy the argument. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you there. IMO, the celling is higher even if the floor is lower.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

The idea that if we don’t win a title it’s a dumpster fire presumes the team as previously constructed… which choked like DOGS two years in a row with HCA… would have definitely won a title when there is ZERO EVIDENCE that’s true.

Some issues I have with some of your previous arguments:

Our biggest problem in the Finals against the Bucks was our lack of big man depth to use in defending Giannis. Since Dario is a big man, it is reasonable to conclude that having him could have helped our problem. It seemed like your argument against this was more of a deflection, along the lines of you brought up Dario in the same breath as Kawhi Leonard, Dario is not Kawhi, therefore bringing up Dario is invalid. This is unreasonable to me.

The idea that if we don't win a title this trade was a dumpster fire is derived from the fact that it reduces our assets and flexibility dramatically, and for a relatively long time, from where they were pre-trade. We've essentially locked ourselves into a diminishing value trajectory for the next six years. The likeliest outcome is that our team does not win a championship, degrades year by year due to aging stars, and we are a treadmill team at best for the last few years of this timeline. Had we not made this trade, all moves would still be on the table, and most of the core of our team would still be young, hence, on an appreciating value trajectory. Thus, the future, i.e. our ability to position ourselves to win a title, would be much brighter. This is a reasonable take to me. Your take that the trade would not be a dumpster fire, because the team as previously constructed would not necessarily win a championship, is a non sequitur.

 

[SirStefan32]

I thought this was going to be my favorite thread for a long time, but it's turned from being happy for Mikal and Cam into arguing about the KD trade without an ounce on nuance by most people.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Some issues I have with some of your previous arguments:

Our biggest problem in the Finals against the Bucks was our lack of big man depth to use in defending Giannis.

See, I don't think that was our biggest problem. Our biggest problem was they figured out how to shut down our offense because we only had two shot creators and neither of them could be an unstoppable force. Those games where Giannis dominated still routinely came down to the end of games where our offense tucked tail and ran.

It was one of the main reasons I was a proponent of the KD trade. You don't win titles without an unstoppable offensive force. Neither Booker or CP3 are those guys.

Since Dario is a big man, it is reasonable to conclude that having him could have helped our problem. It seemed like your argument against this was more of a deflection, along the lines of you brought up Dario in the same breath as Kawhi Leonard, Dario is not Kawhi, therefore bringing up Dario is invalid. This is unreasonable to me.

No... Mainstreet brought up Dario to someone who pointed out that the 2021 team wasn't that incredible of a team but benefited from MAJOR stars being out along the way. So, when Mainstreet brought up Dario, I called that comment absurd because it was tying those major injuries together with his own.

The idea that if we don't win a title this trade was a dumpster fire is derived from the fact that it reduces our assets and flexibility dramatically, and for a relatively long time, from where they were pre-trade. We've essentially locked ourselves into a diminishing value trajectory for the next six years.

See.. this is already judging the trade as a diminishing value when a) we're 7-0 so far and b) now have the best player in the game.

The likeliest outcome is that our team does not win a championship, degrades year by year due to aging stars, and we are a treadmill team at best for the last few years of this timeline.

Had we not made this trade, all moves would still be on the table, and most of the core of our team would still be young, hence, on an appreciating value trajectory.

yeah, as a middling playoff team who had already completely lost it's shine after last season's debacle and was continuing to lose that shine even more this season, considered an also ran by the media after half a season. Another early exit this year would have just continued to make this team look like their run was not just a brief one, but one that was pretty much over, settling in as a new era run of the mill 45-50 win Portland in Dame's Prime type team who might have a chance at a Conference Finals once in a blue moon, but isn't a real contender. Opportunities to get one of the top 3 players in the game don't come very often.

Thus, the future, i.e. our ability to position ourselves to win a title, would be much brighter. This is a reasonable take to me.

This team wasn't winning a title... ever... built around Devin Booker, Mikal Bridges and DeAndre Ayton. Anyone who believes otherwise has ignored what type of players are needed to win NBA Championships. And in order to get one of those players, Bridges and a buttload of picks were gonna be what was necessary to make that happen... whether that was KD or some other superstar... who we don't know would have come available.

Your take that the trade would not be a dumpster fire, because the team as previously constructed would not necessarily win a championship, is a non sequitur.

except that's not my take and to be honest, I'm tired of talking about this with Suns fans who a) don't get that and b) seem like they'd rather be right about the trade being wrong rather than enjoying what's going on and actually winning this thing.

 

[Phrazbit]

Sorry cheese, but disagreeing with your opinion does not equate to rooting for the Suns to fail.

Enough with twisting arguments, it's ridiculous to question the fandom of anyone in this conversation.

I want the Suns to win, I think they made a move that, in the long run, is likely to totally screw over their chances of winning. It is what it is.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

See, I don't think that was our biggest problem. Our biggest problem was they figured out how to shut down our offense because we only had two shot creators and neither of them could be an unstoppable force. Those games where Giannis dominated still routinely came down to the end of games where our offense tucked tail and ran.

It was one of the main reasons I was a proponent of the KD trade. You don't win titles without an unstoppable offensive force. Neither Booker or CP3 are those guys.

No... Mainstreet brought up Dario to someone who pointed out that the 2021 team wasn't that incredible of a team but benefited from MAJOR stars being out along the way. So, when Mainstreet brought up Dario, I called that comment absurd because it was tying those major injuries together with his own.

See.. this is already judging the trade as a diminishing value when a) we're 7-0 so far and b) now have the best player in the game.



yeah, as a middling playoff team who had already completely lost it's shine after last season's debacle and was continuing to lose that shine even more this season, considered an also ran by the media after half a season. Another early exit this year would have just continued to make this team look like their run was not just a brief one, but one that was pretty much over, settling in as a new era run of the mill 45-50 win Portland in Dame's Prime type team who might have a chance at a Conference Finals once in a blue moon, but isn't a real contender. Opportunities to get one of the top 3 players in the game don't come very often.

This team wasn't winning a title... ever... built around Devin Booker, Mikal Bridges and DeAndre Ayton. Anyone who believes otherwise has ignored what type of players are needed to win NBA Championships. And in order to get one of those players, Bridges and a buttload of picks were gonna be what was necessary to make that happen... whether that was KD or some other superstar... who we don't know would have come available.

except that's not my take and to be honest, I'm tired of talking about this with Suns fans who a) don't get that and b) seem like they'd rather be right about the trade being wrong rather than enjoying what's going on and actually winning this thing.

You say this was our biggest problem. I say that was our biggest problem. It doesn't really matter. What matters is our lack of big man depth for the purpose of defending Giannis was a big problem, and it is possible that having Dario could have made a difference.

Your response here indicates to me that you're looking more to muddy up the water than investigate the meat of the argument, so I'm not going to respond further to this post.

 

[Hoop Head]

Bridges is really looking like Booker in Brooklyn. It's like watching Book rubbed off on him. He had 26 and 6 assists tonight and an impressive +25. You know it's a good game when your individual points damn near match your plus/minus.

Cam had 15 & 5 boards. I think they need to figure out who their PF is, Cam or Royce O'Neal as it seems they take turns. I guess 2 tweeners works well enough for them though.

Here's a highlight from Mikal that is very Booker-esque. Hits the runner and gets the And 1.

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[DJ Tabooh]

Bridges is really looking like Booker in Brooklyn. It's like watching Book rubbed off on him. He had 26 and 6 assists tonight and an impressive +25. You know it's a good game when your individual points damn near match your plus/minus.

Cam had 15 & 5 boards. I think they need to figure out who their PF is, Cam or Royce O'Neal as it seems they take turns. I guess 2 tweeners works well enough for them though.

Here's a highlight from Mikal that is very Booker-esque. Hits the runner and gets the And 1.

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I’ve watched the last 2 Nets games and while I’m glad Mikal has and is continuing to expand his game, he’s shot 19/50 the last 2 games.

While he’s definitely more comfortable getting to his spots, he’s still not nearly as smooth as Book and it just looks more mechanical than fluid. But nevertheless, they’re giving him the green light in BK to try new things.

 

[Mainstreet]

Mikal Bridges keeps his streak alive, playing 5 straight seasons without missing a game.

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[Absolute Zero]

it really does.

You all sound sound like Ross and Rachel.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I thought this was going to be my favorite thread for a long time, but it's turned from being happy for Mikal and Cam into arguing about the KD trade without an ounce on nuance by most people.

This. #Sigh

 

[Dr. Jones]

I love the twins and wish nothing but the best for them. Mikal in Philly will be the test for me. I think he may get shut down in the playoffs and he will need to figure out how to beat teams that are focusing on him a bit more aggressively.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Mikal better start hitting that 3 pointer, because teams are not going to let him drive in for that 10 footer.

 

[SirStefan32]

I love the twins and wish nothing but the best for them. Mikal in Philly will be the test for me. I think he may get shut down in the playoffs and he will need to figure out how to beat teams that are focusing on him a bit more aggressively.

Oh for sure! Mikal is going to get shut down. That will be the next part of his development- figuring out how to score when he gets the good old Booker treatment by the other team. He will get shut down, but it will be valuable experience for him.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Oh for sure! Mikal is going to get shut down. That will be the next part of his development- figuring out how to score when he gets the good old Booker treatment by the other team. He will get shut down, but it will be valuable experience for him.

And hopefully that's where Cam Johnson comes in, literally, slashing to the bucket or spotting up for the 3, like he had to do with Booker. If Mikal is sliding into Booker's role Cam Johnson has the opportunity to slide into Mikal's role. If they both play to their capabilities it's going to open things up for their teammates - I won't be surprised when they win a game or two against Philly

 

[JCSunsfan]

Looking forward to watching BKN advance in the EC playoffs. Would love to see them as a spoiler all the way up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Looking forward to watching BKN advance in the EC playoffs. Would love to see them as a spoiler all the way up.

That would be nice but I expect Philadelphia to cruise through that series.