Warner wants to start....

[Duckjake]

Kent Graham was a very underrated Cardinal. He was clutch! Give him an impossible 4th down and he was golden. Racked up some big offensive numbers with Boomer Esiason for a much improved Cardinal team in Vince Tobin's first year. Jim Fassel was a great OC that year, before going to the Giants and finally being tossed out of the league for winning too often.

Not really. That was back when the Cards QBs dumped the ball off to Larry Centers at every opportunity. Graham's yards per attempt was a very pedestrian 5.93.

He did have one of the very few seasons since Lomax retired where a Cardinal QB actually threw more TD passes than interceptions though.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is from CBS sportsline. I think this is the underlying reason for the coaching staffs affection with Leinart and the one thing everyone fails to bring up in these debates:

James said in an interview with CBSSports.com this offseason that he remains in great shape and will benefit from a full year with Matt Leinart as the starting quarterback. Remember, Kurt Warner likes to throw, but Leinart will manage the offense and worked well with James when the two played together last year (in five games with Leinart, James averaged 88.4 yards and scored three touchdowns).

 

[DaisyCutter]

I think you're right, AF. I think the point with the coaches is that Warner can't be trusted in clutch situations, or early in the game. Matt can win the game for you (or get you in a position to win); he showed that two years ago. But Warner is going to kill you as many times as he helps you.

Edge just isn't a back who is going to be able to bail an offense out with big plays from the backfield. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that Leinart isn't the better game manager.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I think Kurt is a GREAT QB. If Leinart ends up winning the job I hope he deserves it more than he did last year.

Bam!

That is the best I have seen it put yet.

What MD said.


---- MD, Time to change that avatar. Do we need to have an intervention about this ?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Not really. That was back when the Cards QBs dumped the ball off to Larry Centers at every opportunity.

Not a bad gameplan tho.

 

[Goober Man]

I want Leinart to start. The memories in my mind of Kurt Warner losing games for this franchise are too fresh (fumbling in the end zone against SF, fumbling on the 30 against St. Louis, the inopportune INTs, etc., etc.). How soon we forget why Warner lost his job (not due to injury, but for poor play) to being with.

Thats the same reason why I want Leinart to start. Warners 5 INT game still bothers me.

 

[gohard83]

Im more comfortable with Warner starting because of what he proved last season. I still question Leinart's determination until he proves me wrong.

 

[joeshmo]

Im more comfortable with Warner starting because of what he proved last season. I still question Leinart's determination until he proves me wrong.

So you think all the coaches and media who have said nothing but great things about his work ethic since he got injured means nothing?

We are being lied to?

 

[cardsfanmd]

So you think all the coaches and media who have said nothing but great things about his work ethic since he got injured means nothing?

We are being lied to?

You act like it hasn't happened before.

 

[ShadowGBQ]

Stats in 1996 for Duckjake

Not really. That was back when the Cards QBs dumped the ball off to Larry Centers at every opportunity. Graham's yards per attempt was a very pedestrian 5.93.

He did have one of the very few seasons since Lomax retired where a Cardinal QB actually threw more TD passes than interceptions though.

Esiason and Graham passed for a cumulative 3688 yards, 6th in the NFL. Only two teams in the NFC passed for more. The Cardinals were also tied for 1st in the conference in passes for more than 20 yards.

Only two starting QB's in 96 had less attempts than Kent Graham, Rick Mirer and Warren Moon. He threw as many touchdown passes (12) as the two of them combined. Graham completed more passes of 20+ yards than Moon or Steve Young.

This was on a team with no legitimate RB's and coming off one of the most woeful (and offensively inept) seasons in recent memory. So yeah, prodigious numbers in my opinion for Fassel's passing game and both QB's that season.

And yeah, they dumped off to Larry Centers a lot but Centers was fourth in the league in receptions and gained 766 yards receiving, a rather big number really.

 

[Duckjake]

This was on a team with no legitimate RB's and coming off one of the most woeful (and offensively inept) seasons in recent memory.

Dave Kreig did a better job of dumping it off to Centers. Kreig averaged 6.82 yards per attempt.

Boomer and Kent combined to pass for the prodigious amount of 24 yards more than one of the most woeful and offensively inept teams in recent memory did in 1995.

No legitimate running back? The franchise record for most yards rushing in a single game was set in 1996.

 

[mojorizen7]

I'd be more worried about Rackers losing games for you than K.Warner.
How he's still your kicker is beyond me.
Just sayin.

 

[SuperSpck]

I'd be more worried about Rackers losing games for you than K.Warner.
How he's still your kicker is beyond me.
Just sayin.

Both players cost the team games. No one can deny that, but it's played by a team and little building blocks that are set by all sides can have an effect on the final.

Back to topic:

I worry about Leinart's happy feet. You could see his mind dancing last year.

He doesn't trust the pass pro because he never faced that kind of rush in college (not at the rate and speed he has at least).

He was over thinking the plays and holding onto the ball too long (something Warner did when he was in his twilight as a Ram and a Giant but less frequently as a Cardinal).

If Matt can relax and deliver the ball quickly, supported by a good running game, he'll be just fine. We won't know the first real game of the season, pre-season isn't enough of a test. 3 games in, if he still looks shell shocked than it's time to wash and start again.

 

[ShadowGBQ]

1995/96

The Cardinals were 17th in the league in passing in 1995, with 3500 yards, not 3664 as you claim. The '96 team passed for 3688 yards (in a MUCH less wide-open season; the league leaders in '05 outpaced the top passing teams in 96 by 500+ yards) and was 6th in the NFL. Where do you get your information?

The Cardinals two starting running backs in '96 were Leshon Johnson and Leland McElroy. McElroy was cut and out of the league by age 26. Johnson was out of the league by age 28. Yes, he rushed for 200+ in a game against New Orleans, but he followed that up with sterling performances such as 21 yards on 14 carries against Dallas. I don't think it's open for debate whether either of them was a legitimate starting RB in the NFL.

By the way, Johnson (famous for running full speed into a water trough on an otherwise empty 500 yard field) finished 33rd out of 32 starting RB's in the NFL, a record which will surely stand the test of time.

 

[Duckjake]

The Cardinals were 17th in the league in passing in 1995, with 3500 yards, not 3664 as you claim. The '96 team passed for 3688 yards (in a MUCH less wide-open season; the league leaders in '05 outpaced the top passing teams in 96 by 500+ yards) and was 6th in the NFL. Where do you get your information?

My information comes from the Arizona Cardinals 2007 media guide.

You are using the passing yards after deducting for yards lost to sacks. I am using the actual yards passing.

The Cards passed for 3,893 yards in 1995 and 3,917 in 1996 a difference of 24 yards.

 

[ShadowGBQ]

*shrugs*

I understand. Okay, Boomer and Kent held serve for passing yards in a season where the average dropped a billion, and they were sacked 80 times less.

I think 6th in the league passing with a bottom-barrel rushing game is pretty good, but I guess we can agree to disagree until one of us gets to ask Dr. Z or Joel Buschbaum. I remember us throwing and throwing during a 3-game win streak and nobody could stop us.

One more point about Warner and Leinart. If we keep Warner on the bench we know we have him available to play. Starting Warner in games 1-2-3 would be the surest way to get him hurt or at least banged up and ineffective against a blitz.

 

[Quan]

Are there any Leinart supporters out there? It's either people are just ok with him being the starter, or want Kurt. No one should have a problem with Leinart as the starter... He showed his flashes in the mess that was Denny Green's regime. Now he's got a great coach looking after him. Look at what Wiz did for the no talent oaf that is Ben Rothlesberger... He dumbed down the offense to the point where Ben could understand, and throw 20 attempts for 200 yards and 2 touchdowns. Leinart can do at least that much with anquan and larryld. Leinart's struggles early last year were partially Wiz's fault by putting too much on his shoulders. Now he can game plan to Leinart's current abilities and let the rest of the much improved team be Leinart's backbone until he can step start throwin for 300 yards a game. Don't forget Leinart has clearly outclassed everyone in every level of football he's played, no one should be doubting his talent, and his smarts are coming along.

 

[Bigdez22]

Are there any Leinart supporters out there? It's either people are just ok with him being the starter, or want Kurt. No one should have a problem with Leinart as the starter... He showed his flashes in the mess that was Denny Green's regime. Now he's got a great coach looking after him. Look at what Wiz did for the no talent oaf that is Ben Rothlesberger... He dumbed down the offense to the point where Ben could understand, and throw 20 attempts for 200 yards and 2 touchdowns. Leinart can do at least that much with anquan and larryld. Leinart's struggles early last year were partially Wiz's fault by putting too much on his shoulders. Now he can game plan to Leinart's current abilities and let the rest of the much improved team be Leinart's backbone until he can step start throwin for 300 yards a game. Don't forget Leinart has clearly outclassed everyone in every level of football he's played, no one should be doubting his talent, and his smarts are coming along.

Then what does that say for Matt if whis could get as you said "the no talent oaf that is ben rothlesberger" to win 14 games his first year. If whis can get anybody to do it and Matt cant......

I hope Matt is the guy, but as someone said early in this thread. I hope he earns it this year unlike last year.

 

[Duckjake]

I remember us throwing and throwing during a 3-game win streak and nobody could stop us.

Correct, but that was all Esiason as Boomer passed for 1,149 yards in the 3 games.

Strangely enough, in addition to L Johnson's franchise record rushing game against the Saints, Esiason set the franchise record for single game yards passing with 522 in the overtime game against Wash in 1996.

(Quan) Don't forget Leinart has clearly outclassed everyone in every level of football he's played, no one should be doubting his talent,

My concern is that maybe Leinart's success at USC had more to do with his surrounding cast than his QB abilities. I probably wouldn't feel that way so much if it weren't for the Cards wonderful history.

 

[ShadowGBQ]

Leinart will look good if the team plays well around him. If we were still a last-place team with a poor defense and Matt L. was the "savior" then he might go out and lay an egg this year. He has a quality team around him. He has proven his ability to play in the league and make simple plays to win games. We do not need a Jake Plummer or any other miracle man at QB the way this team is shaping up.

Leinart was awesome against the Steelers last year when the chips were down. He is a developing young QB with a minor boozing problem, not a project, not a long shot, not a conundrum. If he looks bad this year it will be because the team plays badly as a unit and consistently puts the QB in bad situations.

There are 24 starters on this team -- not just one. The first series of the first game will not decide what we do at QB. Let the team play as a unit and see what happens in the first 5 or 6 games.

 

[earthsci]

Are there any Leinart supporters out there?

There are a lot but I hope you aren't having a problem with the attitude that most, like me, have - We just want to win and hope it's with Leinart because in the long run, that is what is best for the team. To win and have our QB of the future. If winning means Warner, we want to win.